The Great Tremaine Edmunds Debate

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

Erik and Nate? Not sure if it was Nate that time, but Erik did at least one video breakdown of Tremaine Edmunds. I left coming away with the impression that his issues are 99% he doesn't know where he has to be and makes bad decisions. I also don't agree that he's a bad tackler. When he is able to read the play correctly and has to fill a gap, nothing is coming out the other side.

 

I agree he needs to be better at shedding blocks, too. I don't think the excuse of him being 22 is a bad one. It's very valid. Reading offenses in the NFL is hard. Some players take longer to get it than others. Edmunds' physical package is well worth the risk that he never really gets it.

 

Agree with this 100%. This is what I see for Edmunds as well. When he reads play good he is amazing at it. Like a few key savings tackles all year. But the  wrong looks bad really bad.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Over the past few days, Bills Twitter has been split over Tremaine Edmunds.

 

The Case for Edmunds:

WGR’s Nate Geary and Cover 1’s Erik Turner

Both have defended Edmunds and believes that he isn’t the problem.  They have also said THE excuse - he’s 22!  Also feels he’s a scapegoat and suffering from having a poor DL.

 

To be fair the stuff about the DL is a good argument but I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.  

 

The case against Edmunds:

Majority of Bills Twitter

 

 

 

Golly, this is such a brain puzzler.

 

On one side the pundits and the players who vote for the Pro Bowl and the Bills coaching staff and a defense that has been consistently good for several years now, though without an offseason and Star Lotulelei they had a very slow start this year ...

 

and on the other side .... Twitter.

 

Golly gee whillikeers, I wonder who's right.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

4 hours ago, HOUSE said:

2× Pro Bowl (2019, 2020)

 

First team All-ACC (2017)

 

Second team All-ACC (2016

Edmunds is why I don’t believe in the pro bowl anymore.

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

If Milano and Edmunds were both UFAs, I’d put money on Milano.

 

But you’re right, the timing of their deals make it moot.

 

I do find it frightening that Edmunds looked a whole lot better with Milano back. Obviously, teammates matter especially on defense. But Edmunds was supposed to be All-Pro level. Not sure he’ll ever reach that if he needs a decent LBer next him to play well.

 

Yes I agree Milano is better now and I really do wish we could keep him.

 

But Edmunds has 3 years of steady improvement with the team and 2 more years to keep improving. And he's soooOOOoooo young.

 

This isn't a debate 

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Not sure I few that strongly.  The potential is there but I didn’t see it this season

Pro Bowl players suck.....everybody knows that!

[GunnerBill]

He definitely took a step back in 2020 from where he was in 2019. In 2019 there were still occasional run fit issues but he really was a difference maker in the passing game and the success of the Bills' zone scheme was dependant on Edmunds ability to take away pass lanes and the rally and tackle in underneath coverage. 

 

He did not play as well in coverage - especially early in the year. I know he was hurt and I am not sure how much that affected him. The issues were biting on misdirection and play action, as well as seeming slowed running sideline to sideline more than struggling to disengage from blocks. That wouldn't immediately scream "bad shoulder" to me but it is possible that the injury just got in his head and affected his confidence. 

 

What is true is once he got healthy he did play better and the 2nd half of his season was more akin to his 2019 season. Over his first 10 games of 2020 opposition QB passer ratings when targeting Edmunds were over 100 6 times and he gave up 4 touchdowns in coverage. Over his final 8 including playoffs he did not give up a touchdown and gave up passer ratings over 100 just twice - one of those obviously being Kansas City where I would agree with the defenders that he was not assisted by the scheme. 

 

But basically all his numbers were worse in 2020 than 2019 when you really dig into the advanced stats. 

 

- Worst QB rating vs him in coverage of his career 

- worst yards per completion give up of his career

- worse QB completion % against him than 2019 (though better than his rookie year)

- fewer QB pressures (he had 16 over his first two years and only 3 in 2020 despite being sent on the blitz more times than either other year)

- fewest passes defensed of his career (3 in 2020, down from 9 in 2019 and 12 in 2018)

- fewest tackles for loss (4 in 2020, down from a career high 10 in 2019)

 

I remain an Edmunds fan. I do think the first 10 weeks of his 2020 season were hampered by his injury but 2020 was a regression. That is true of a lot of the defense, for sure, but it is also the case that they need their big ticket items on that defense to step up and Edmunds is one of those. The Bills will take up Tremaine's 5th year option. They are not, despite what some fans think, going to move him outside. But make no mistake 2021 is a pivotal year in this kid's career. If he wants a long term extension from Buffalo he needs to return to 2019 form. 

 

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

But Edmunds has 3 years of steady improvement with the team and 2 more years to keep improving. And he's soooOOOoooo young.

 

This isn't a debate 

 

The bolded is really not true. What he had was a massive improvement in 2019 over 2018 and then a regression in 2020. He was trending towards elite for me at the end of last year. That trend took a knock this year and he needs to rebound in 2021. 

[machine gun kelly]

The reality is we’ll know a lot more after Star comes back how Edmunds will do.  I hate we probably can’t retain Milano as these guys work well as a unit.  Each one has a role and as we saw this year, when you take one or two pieces away the others don’t succeed.

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Edmunds is why I don’t believe in the pro bowl anymore.

 

 

I know, I know. I mean, what a crap lineup, right? Let's just take a look at the 2nd team:

 

QB: Josh Allen

RB: Nick Chubb

WR: Keenan Allen, AJ Brown

TE: Darren Waller

T: Eric Fisher, Orlando Brown

G: Joel Bitonio, David DeCastro

C :  Ryan Kelly

DE: Joey Bosa, Frank Clark

DT: Cameron Heyward, Calais Campbell

OLB: Bradley Chubb, Matt Judon

ILB: Tremaine Edmunds

CB: Marlon Humphrey

CB: Stephon Gilmore

S: Justin Simmons, Tyrann Mathieu

 

I mean, that lineup couldn't play their way out of a paper bag. They'd have a hard time beating up on the Jags, right? I mean, right? Right? Anyone? Right?

 

I think they're going to try as hard as they possibly can to keep Milano. He has been a crucial piece here and they know it. After that, assuming they still have a decent amount of money left on the cap next year, I think they'll likely end up working to keep Edmunds as well.

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[BillsFan1988]

Anyone see Haason Reddick this yr he was moved bk to his natural position on the outside and was dominitate with 12.5 sacks on the yr. He was considered a massive bust before this season. 

 

Edmunds needs to move outside were his skills will be on full display . I definitely would like to also see him play with more intensity. 

 

Ed Oliver is also playing in the wrong spot  he needs to be in a attacking role as a 3 tech. 

 

I just don't understand why McBeane drafts these guys high then they want to move them away from the positions that got these players drafted highly to begin with. Same thing is happening with Epenesa now he's better suited for LE and we got him on the right side. 

 

Teams usually move players drafted in the latter rounds to new positions not at the top of the draft. These guys haven't played up to there potential and the blame mainly falls on Mcd & Frasier for getting to cute. 

[BillsFan1988]

8 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

They traded a 1st and 3rd to move up in the 1st and got a 5th back as well. It didn’t set the franchise back. I’d say it was pretty reasonable to move up from 22 to 16. 
 

I don’t understand the issue with drafting the player with elite physical traits? I mean people routinely have been bashing Beane for not being aggressive enough and taking players with elite traits, but when he does it and it doesn’t work it was dumb to draft a player with elite traits? 
 

Which one do we want people? Because we can’t flip flop what we B word and moan about. 

The problem is that yr was very strong yr for Lbers in the draft. I loved Darius Leonard and Fred Warner they both were there in 2nd and 3rd rds . We made a massive mistake trading up for Edmunds just so we can move him to a position that doesn't showcase his talents. 

[Thurman#1]

50 minutes ago, BillsFan1988 said:

Anyone see Haason Reddick this yr he was moved bk to his natural position on the outside and was dominitate with 12.5 sacks on the yr. He was considered a massive bust before this season. 

 

Edmunds needs to move outside were his skills will be on full display . I definitely would like to also see him play with more intensity. 

 

Ed Oliver is also playing in the wrong spot  he needs to be in a attacking role as a 3 tech. 

 

I just don't understand why McBeane drafts these guys high then they want to move them away from the positions that got these players drafted highly to begin with. Same thing is happening with Epenesa now he's better suited for LE and we got him on the right side. 

 

Teams usually move players drafted in the latter rounds to new positions not at the top of the draft. These guys haven't played up to there potential and the blame mainly falls on Mcd & Frasier for getting to cute. 

 

 

 

The difference being that Haason Reddick was considered a massive bust while Edmunds has been a two-time Pro Bowler at MLB. They picked him for MLB because he has the skills and abilities that they want at MLB. You may not want them there, but McDermott  and Beane do.

 

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with Oliver. Attacking 3-tech is exactly what he's already doing.

[CaptnCoke11]

He’s not very physical and has poor instincts.  I’m no expert or anything but I’d say those aren’t good qualities to have for an NFL linebacker. 

[JMF2006]

The kids going to be 23 next season and going on his 4th year.

 

Even though I had the size and some speed there is no way I could have played MLB at 20 years old in my flag football league.

 

This guy has has done it in the NFL and made the Pro Bowl twice (I know he may not have deserved this year)

 

The kid also did it with one wing for 4 or 5 weeks and a lot of guys would have taken that time off to heal..... not this kid.

 

I think he is super tough mentally and physically and he is going to be a superstar....give him time to grow and to acquire the smarts.

 

[colin]

he flashes very good ability, and fairly regularly when he's not hurt.  the issue is he gets fooled way way too much, and his mistakes offset enough of his positive plays to make you wonder if he's worth the money he will cost.

 

i think a large part of this is that our scheme combined w the players we have is just too limited and predictable.  clearly mcd knows that his DL is what matters the most, but we've had 4 giant misses (5 if you count star being out) on that front.

 

i agree w people who talk about edmunds playing on the outside.  i think we need a couple more upgrades at DB, or have our back ups improve, so we can vary up our scheme a bit.  we need edmunds to make fewer mistakes, but more than anything we need a real impact at our DL.  i have honestly never seen a team that would improve more than a young bruce smith being on it than ours.  

[DCOrange]

He's a solid starter, is super young, and has great athletic traits. I definitely do not view him as a pro bowl caliber player yet (yes, I know he's made a couple of them but I don't think they were deserved).

 

Milano is the better player of the two IMO. Having said that, it seems like Beane ultimately has to choose between the two of them and I expect him to choose Edmunds both due to what they already invested in him as well as his age and athletic traits.

 

It makes me nervous because I expect Edmunds will be paid like he's a top 5 linebacker and if he doesn't improve, that's really poor value during a time that we need to be careful with our money.

 

To some of the other points in this thread: as a Bills/Bucs fan, I would say White is significantly better than Edmunds. That isn't really a knock on Edmunds...White is just really good already and still improving. The Bucs have IMO the best LB duo in the league with him and David (who's in the conversation for #1 LB in the league). Re: playing Edmunds outside, I do wish we'd at least situationally use him that way. He had some nice flashes of being an edge rusher in college and he definitely has the athletic traits to be able to contribute there as well. We don't really have the LBs behind him to be able to play him that way though (and I imagine that is by design).

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Pro Bowl players suck.....everybody knows that!

Tyrod is about to be enshrined 

[SoCal Deek]

My daughter used to play soccer at a high level growing up. There was always a girl on the team with the physical tools who you thought, wow, she’s going to be a player! They very rarely were. Edmunds reminds me of those girls. He was born with the gift of size and speed. He’s not yet figured out what to do with those gifts. He looks lost, tentative, slow to the point of attack, unwilling to engage, too often blown up because he’s just too tall, etc.....and I’ve seen very little evolution over the last couple of years. The light bulb has simply not gone on.

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

He's a solid starter, is super young, and has great athletic traits. I definitely do not view him as a pro bowl caliber player yet (yes, I know he's made a couple of them but I don't think they were deserved).

 

 

He has made 2 pro bowl because MLB is significantly weaker in the AFC than in the NFC. If the Bills were in the NFC no way Edmunds has sniffed a pro bowl. 

 

The conferences are not always balanced at a specific position. 

[oldmanfan]

Two things will fix Edmunds:

 

1.  Get an actual 1 technique DT in front of him again

2.  Hire Luke Keuchly as a consultant and have him go over film again and again with Edmunds.  Have him there during preseason next year.  Edmunds has the tools, he just has to learn the nuances of reading plays and such and since Kuechly played that role to a T with McD in Carolina, he would be the best teacher.  

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He has made 2 pro bowl because MLB is significantly weaker in the AFC than in the NFC. If the Bills were in the NFC no way Edmunds has sniffed a pro bowl. 

 

The conferences are not always balanced at a specific position. 

If Edmunds is a pro bowl caliber MLB their have to be a dozen other AFC fan bases who are REALLY frustrated at the lack of performance on their roster. Is that really true? I doubt it.