The Great Tremaine Edmunds Debate

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Agreed on the MLB point. With that being said, aren’t you the one who takes swipes at Beane because he doesn’t do a good enough job of finding elite players and drafting guys with elite traits like Metcalf? 
 

I feel like he made an attempt here and the results have been mixed. Any reason why it’s bad that he made an attempt at this type of player with elite traits? 
 

Also, it’s been like 24 hours and you still haven’t told me which playoff teams have a better cap situation than Buffalo. Waiting on that one because I’m genuinely curious. 

 

 

Actually I have liked all of the players the Bills selected in round 1 since McD got here.

 

Of course,  at the time,  I assumed Edmunds was going to be an OLB with a chance to be developed as a game-breaking pass rusher.

 

The MLB experiment has resulted in a whole lotta' "meh"...........hasn't worked because Edmunds is just not an instinctive MLB.......that position really needs to be a mirror of the RB position and he is nothing like a RB in any way, shape or form.

 

So keeping him at MLB is a waste of a player who could have had the impact of a TJ Watt, IMO.

 

You can get that 2021 cap room info on spotrac but roughly:

 

Colts $80M

WFT $45M

Bucs $40M

Ravens $30M

Browns $30M

Bills $5M 

 

Chiefs are over the cap by $20M but they are BUILT.    They aren't chasing and their key players are under contract.    The Colts probably have the best roster in the AFC aside from the QB position.   The Ravens are the team most Bills fans are sleeping on because they think Lamar can't pass the ball.    They're wrong.  I don't want to see him get a couple weapons in the passing game but that's exactly what the Ravens are going to do. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

The case against Edmunds:

Majority of Bills Twitter

 

What does this even mean? 

What is the actual meaning of the phrase "Majority of Bills Twitter"?

How do you even quantitate that?

 

Does it mean "the majority of tweets responding to positive tweets about Edmunds by Cover1, Nate Geary etc"?

[thenorthremembers]

Has anyones opinion of Tremaine changed since we had the "Tremaine Edmunds is he good" thread two weeks ago?  I imagine he hasnt gotten any better or worse having not played a down of football since then.

[LABILLBACKER]

When you start talking about Tremaine Edmunds you feel like your head will explode.  So many pros and so many cons. Three years is enough of a sample size to know what you have. Everyone wants to bring up his youth(22) but you can't play that card anymore. His size, speed and athleticism is undeniable. But I hate to be the one to break it to Sean that Tremaine will never be anywhere near Luke Kuechly. Edmund's flaws out weigh his strengths. Poor instincts, inconsistent tackling, lost in the wash. I truly think the only thing that would salvage his career and justify his 1st round status would be what so many have suggested.  Make him an OLB. Let him use his speed and cover skills on the outside and he can also occasionally blitz. He's got too much finesse and not enough Dawg. I don't think we're keeping Milano so what they do with Edmunds will be critical. 

[JGMcD2]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Actually I have liked all of the players the Bills selected in round 1 since McD got here.

 

Of course,  at the time,  I assumed Edmunds was going to be an OLB with a chance to be developed as a game-breaking pass rusher.

 

The MLB experiment has resulted in a whole lotta' "meh"...........hasn't worked because Edmunds is just not an instinctive MLB.......that position really needs to be a mirror of the RB position and he is nothing like a RB in any way, shape or form.

 

So keeping him at MLB is a waste of a player who could have had the impact of a TJ Watt, IMO.

 

You can get that 2021 cap room info on spotrac but roughly:

 

Colts $80M

WFT $45M

Bucs $40M

Ravens $30M

Browns $30M

Bills $5M 

 

Chiefs are over the cap by $20M but they are BUILT.    They aren't chasing and their key players are under contract.    The Colts probably have the best roster in the AFC aside from the QB position.   The Ravens are the team most Bills fans are sleeping on because they think Lamar can't pass the ball.    They're wrong.  I don't want to see him get a couple weapons in the passing game but that's exactly what the Ravens are going to do. 

 

I can’t necessarily argue with your first point at all. If you’re going to admit you liked Edmunds but think he’s playing out of position, I can’t argue with that at all. 
 

I completely agree with you that the Colts have the best roster in the AFC and probably football outside of the QB position, but I think we can agree that until Ballard finds that long term solution it doesn’t really matter. The cap space doesn’t like it will help that this year. WFT are a pretty flawed team, they’re still missing a QB and really an offense. I do like the pieces they have in McLaurin and Gibson but they’ve got a long way to go. The Bucs have $40M but they have major players like Godwin, Barrett and Brown hitting FA. Those are major players that need to be replaced. The Ravens have major players hitting FA. The Browns need to find an entire defense outside of DE and CB with $30M. 
 

So yes, we’re in a little bit of a pickle cap space wise at the moment and we’re likely losing Milano and Williams in FA. To me cap space and financially are a little different. Sure the Bucs have $40M but Godwin, Brown and Barrett likely eat all of that if they try to bring them back. They won’t really have the ability to upgrade anything either. I guess the difference is they can likely bring all 3 back where we’re going to have to cut/restructure some folks to keep any of our major FA? 
 

We’re also not chasing any of our core guys. Diggs, Dawkins, White are all locked up and Josh has 2 more years and will undoubtedly be locked up himself. 
 

Yes, they have a better cap situation but taking EVERYTHING into account financially which of those teams are really in a better spot than Buffalo? 

[Fan in Chicago]

I wouldn't be surprised if Beane tries to trade him.  In the draft,  you look for the NFL equivalent of a college graduate degree.  Bills shoukd not be in the business of putting players through college and hoping they graduate to be job- worthy in time for a second contract. Especially first rounders

Edited February 5, 2021 by Fan in Chicago

[JohnNord]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What does this even mean? 

What is the actual meaning of the phrase "Majority of Bills Twitter"?

How do you even quantitate that?

 

Does it mean "the majority of tweets responding to positive tweets about Edmunds by Cover1, Nate Geary etc"?

Yeah pretty much.  There wasn’t another media member others would recognize.  Tried to keep it simple but I understand where the confusion comes in

[Ethan in Cleveland]

My thoughts about Edmunds have been well documented.  Edmunds is a bottom 10 middle linebacker.  His age is no longer an excuse. He is a 3 year starter in the NFL.  He is not going to get any better reading defenses and making impact plays.  Either he is not smart enough to play the position or he just lacks instincts.  I don't care that he lines up the defense.  Anyone can do that.  I can't recall a single impact play from 2020 made by Edmunds.  

I still believe he would be a star at OLB.  

I don't know and in fact I doubt McD will move him to OLB though.  Hope I am wrong.

[Success]

Just now, Ethan in Portland said:

My thoughts about Edmunds have been well documented.  Edmunds is a bottom 10 middle linebacker.  His age is no longer an excuse. He is a 3 year starter in the NFL.  He is not going to get any better reading defenses and making impact plays.  Either he is not smart enough to play the position or he just lacks instincts.  I don't care that he lines up the defense.  Anyone can do that.  I can't recall a single impact play from 2020 made by Edmunds.  

I still believe he would be a star at OLB.  

I don't know and in fact I doubt McD will move him to OLB though.  Hope I am wrong.

 

RE: the bolded.  He is 22.

 

 

[BuffaloRebound]

Nobody cares how old he is anymore.  His dad played in the NFL for 7 years and is a high school football coach.  He’s got 2 brothers in the NFL, he started for 3 years at an ACC upper echelon school, and has started for 3 years in the NFL.  If he’s still raw with his bloodlines and playing experience, it’s not happening.  This is the year he’s gotta put it together.  

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I can’t necessarily argue with your first point at all. If you’re going to admit you liked Edmunds but think he’s playing out of position, I can’t argue with that at all. 
 

I completely agree with you that the Colts have the best roster in the AFC and probably football outside of the QB position, but I think we can agree that until Ballard finds that long term solution it doesn’t really matter. The cap space doesn’t like it will help that this year. WFT are a pretty flawed team, they’re still missing a QB and really an offense. I do like the pieces they have in McLaurin and Gibson but they’ve got a long way to go. The Bucs have $40M but they have major players like Godwin, Barrett and Brown hitting FA. Those are major players that need to be replaced. The Ravens have major players hitting FA. The Browns need to find an entire defense outside of DE and CB with $30M. 
 

So yes, we’re in a little bit of a pickle cap space wise at the moment and we’re likely losing Milano and Williams in FA. To me cap space and financially are a little different. Sure the Bucs have $40M but Godwin, Brown and Barrett likely eat all of that if they try to bring them back. They won’t really have the ability to upgrade anything either. I guess the difference is they can likely bring all 3 back where we’re going to have to cut/restructure some folks to keep any of our major FA? 
 

We’re also not chasing any of our core guys. Diggs, Dawkins, White are all locked up and Josh has 2 more years and will undoubtedly be locked up himself. 
 

Yes, they have a better cap situation but taking EVERYTHING into account financially which of those teams are really in a better spot than Buffalo? 

 

 

I agree with most of that but the Bills are most definitely chasing their elite pass rusher...........that's where I find the Edmunds usage discouraging. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

55 minutes ago, RunJoshRun said:

Very low (or lowest) Wonderlic score in his class of LB's and the coaches are oh so gentle with him!

 

Just curious, what do you think the Wonderlic score tells us about a guy's ability to understand and play football?

 

The tests I've seen look like a cross between an older SAT (vocabulary, math) and an intelligence test (logic, spatial reasoning).

 

I'm not sure how well they predict one's ability to play football.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

40 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Beane tries to trade him.  In the draft,  you look for the NFL equivalent of a college graduate degree.  Bills shoukd not be in the business of putting players through college and hoping they graduate to be job- worthy in time for a second contract. Especially first rounders

I really hope so. He made the pro bowl but I don’t think he’s even worth the 5th year option. I was a fan of his scouting report before we even drafted him , but he has been a disappointment especially against the run. 
 

maybe there’s a GM that will be enticed by his measurable’s and pro bowl selection and doesn’t have access to any of his tape. 

[PrimeTime101]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just curious, what do you think the Wonderlic score tells us about a guy's ability to understand and play football?

 

The tests I've seen look like a cross between an older SAT (vocabulary, math) and an intelligence test (logic, spatial reasoning).

 

I'm not sure how well they predict one's ability to play football.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1536402-comparing-wonderlic-scores-of-nfl-stars

 

This article clearly states why they have people do the wonderlic. But it also shows it does not always mean that player will be worse or better on the fly.

 

If we followed this set of scores 

 

Wonderlic scores for 2018 QBs

Josh Allen: 37

Josh Rosen: 29

Sam Darnold: 28

Baker Mayfield: 25

Lamar Jackson: 13

 

Obviously Rosen is the second best QB in the league right?

[Hebert19]

3 hours ago, Beast said:

Edmunds is a damned good player. I will leave it at that. 

I agree.  Hes good and hes 22.  He needs to be set up for success next year.  Star back and let him run.  

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I agree with most of that but the Bills are most definitely chasing their elite pass rusher...........that's where I find the Edmunds usage discouraging. 

Yeah I think that’s fair, but if you look at the fact we have a player who has the ability to be that player already on the roster, we’re in an enviable position compared to say, the Colts who don’t have their QB on the roster or the Ravens who aren’t pulling an impact WR out of thin air.
 

When looking at acquiring the tools to make a team successful, I think Beane has added a player that has the ability to be an impact player at the key spots. We might not necessarily have to “chase” a player like other teams.
 

I would say the 5 most important positions, in order, are QB, LT, DE/Pass Rusher, CB, WR. We’ve straight up secured 4/5 of those that we can argue are actually elite. Allen, Dawkins, White and Diggs. The pass rusher is missing, BUT if you’re right, he is already on the roster. 

 

If we want to look at those other teams for comparison real quick..

 

IND

 

QB: ?

LT: It’s may be Nelson who is an elite guard

DE/RUSH: Leonard

CB: ? (Rhodes if they bring him back)

WR: Pittman looks solid, but hardly elite
 

WSH:

 

QB: Yikes

LT: ?

DE: Chase Young, uh huh. 
CB: ?

WR: McLaurin

 

BAL:

 

QB: Jackson

LT: Stanley

DE: ? Judon/Yannick if brought back

CB: A few guys here

WR: ? Hollywood Brown but he’s not elite 

 

TB:

 

QB: Brady

LT: Donovan Smith

DE: ? guys need to be brought back, but Barrett

CB: Some young guys there

WR: Evans and Godwin if brought back 

 

CLE:

 

QB: Baker

LT: Wills

DE: Garrett

CB: Ward

WR: Odell 

 

When looking at it that way, I would say without a doubt I wouldn’t want to be WSH or IND (Solely because there’s no path to a QB right now). 
 

BAL, TB, CLE I guess you can argue for them over Buffalo. I personally would take all of our guys over everyone CLE has except Garrett. BAL I’d prefer Stanley to Dawkins maybe and then whichever pass rusher. TB I think has the best situation on paper, but that’s why they’re in the Super Bowl. 
 

I would take Buffalo’s situation and future situation over just about every team in the league. I personally feel KC has been the best run organization since McBeane got here. IND is #2, but the QB is a huge issue, it’s not all their fault but if they don’t find one it’s a waste. After that I legitimately think you can make an argument for BUF, BAL and NO (yes, I know the cap issues but they’re really very good at finding talent) to round out the top 5. 
 

Beane has found talent at all the key positions, sans RUSH but we think we might have one. If he can find one/repurpose Edmunds and get Josh a play making TE (Knox is another frustrating player but has the toolbox of skills where MAYBE it could be him) I really think we’re in a better spot than almost any other team, because from there it becomes finding some value plays in FA and some contributors in later rounds, which they’ve shown they can do... budget will be tighter so the value plays will be guys even further down the list, but they’ve shown they’re capable. 
 

Getting that elite pass rusher REALLY changes everything though. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by JGMcD2

[DJB]

Physically gifted player but just doesn't have the intelligence, instincts or willingness to step up and get his nose dirty to play MLB. 

[bobobonators]

Theres a lot that has been said here about his age, his instincts, scheme usage etc. I feel hes not yet an impact player. He misses too many plays - he either hits the wrong hole or when he gets it right he misses a tackle too frequently. I want Edmunds to be as great as he’s sometimes portrayed - its not common to say this of Bills players in the media, but Edmunds tends to be overrated by announcers.

 

Hes been good but not great (so far) in my opinion. 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Alert the Media: Football is a team sport, and players depend upon their teammates Doing Their Job to work in concert and make plays.

yeah, when Ray Lewis played poorly it was because his OLB whats-his-name was out!

[Boxcar]

Erik and Nate? Not sure if it was Nate that time, but Erik did at least one video breakdown of Tremaine Edmunds. I left coming away with the impression that his issues are 99% he doesn't know where he has to be and makes bad decisions. I also don't agree that he's a bad tackler. When he is able to read the play correctly and has to fill a gap, nothing is coming out the other side.

 

I agree he needs to be better at shedding blocks, too. I don't think the excuse of him being 22 is a bad one. It's very valid. Reading offenses in the NFL is hard. Some players take longer to get it than others. Edmunds' physical package is well worth the risk that he never really gets it.