The Great Tremaine Edmunds Debate

[BarleyNY]

1 minute ago, BuffaloRebound said:

This.  Picking up Josh’s 5th year option is a no brainer and should’ve been done yesterday.  Seems bizarre that Beane is lumping the 2 decisions together for some reason.  

It is a no brainer for Allen.  It is just face saving for Edmunds because they aren’t picking up his. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Beane’s comments about it being tough to squeeze in both fifth year options seems like face-saving for Edmunds to me. That’s a pretty good strategy if they aren’t picking it up and still want to retain him at a lesser contract.

 

Just to clarify, the two options at the same time (see below) thing didn’t just sneak up on Beane.  He has known what was coming for a long time.  He sure knew when he resigned Milano.  One of the reasons I didn’t think he’d do that was Edmunds’ upcoming contract and I didn’t think he’d want to tie up $25M-$30M a year in two LBs.  It’s possible that the decision was made to keep Milano and either not keep Edmunds or try to retain him at a lesser contract.  We shall see.

 

I don't think it "snuck up" on Beane, but I think he had a long-term plan for it that got AFU by the cap situation.

And I think he was hoping next year's cap would be higher than he now believes it will.

 

All that said, yes, obviously they could have planned both 5th year options into their re-signings of FA this off-season and they didn't, so you have a point there.

[BuffaloRebound]

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2020/05/2021-nfl-fifth-year-option-tracker
 

I believe Bolles is only guy from 2017 draft still with original team who had his 5th year option declined. Surprised there was even 1.  

[BuffaloRebound]

 

And for a reference point, Bills exercised  Tre’s 5th year option one year ago today, which was the night before the 1st round of draft. 

And announced they were declining Shaq’s 5th year option on May 1, 2019, which was the week following the draft.  
 

 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I don't think that's right.  I think a 5th year option is just extending the current rookie contract.  Like any contract, the player can renegotiate and sign a new contract with different terms that then supercedes the previous contract.

 

Let's look at Tre White.  Last May, the Bills picked up his 5th year option for 2021 at a cost of $10M

Then he signed a new deal last summer.

Let's look at his current cap hit: $6.72M is clearly less than $10M, and his $990M salary is clearly less than the $10M salary of the 5th year option.

 

OK let's do another example: Myles Garrett.  The Browns picked up his 5th year option for 2021 last May slating him to earn $15M in 2021.

His current cap hit per Spotrac is $9.4M, with a salary of $1M, which is clearly less than $15M.

 

Basically  I believe you to be mistaken on this point.

 

Thank you if that is the case!  Appreciate the knowledge.

[Arm of Harm]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I suppose I object to the idea of drafting an "Edmunds replacement" and moving on because I feel that draft - let walk - draft to fill holes is how the old Bills operated, and it limits improvement.    I know many here feel just about anyone at MLB would be an improvement, but I tend to feel that's not realistic.  Edmunds isn't Bobby Wagner or Lavonte David but he isn't chopped liver, either.

 

 

I hear you. During the drought years, it was normal for the Bills to use a very high percentage of their first round picks on RBs and DBs. The RBs and DBs thus drafted would almost invariably go first-contract-and-out, regardless of level of play. That's not a way to build a winning football team.

 

In the case of Edmunds, he hasn't lived up to his draft status, but he's still a useful football player. One objection to him is the high level of variability in his play. He could have a great game one week, as he did in the playoff game against Baltimore. Then he could have a stinker the next week, as was the case in the playoff game against the Chiefs. I'd almost rather have a player who was reliably average each and every week, than a guy whose level of play is like a roller coaster ride.

 

I'd like to see the Bills take a MLB in the draft, but I don't want that MLB to come in rounds 1 or 2. Suppose for example they take a MLB in the 4th round. That creates several possibilities. 1) Maybe the 4th rounder is the next Matt Milano. 2) Maybe Edmunds improves. 3) Maybe Edmunds is willing to sign an extension priced at his actual worth, instead of the overpriced 5th year option.

 

Any of those three possibilities would get us out of needing to use an early pick on a MLB in the 2021 draft.

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Arm of Harm

[teef]

this truly is a great debate.  possibly the greatest in my lifetime.  

Edited April 22, 2021 by teef

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, teef said:

the truly is a great debate.  possibly the greatest in my lifetime.  

Greater than great taste vs less filling?  Come on Man!

[Mat68]

5 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

I hear you. During the drought years, it was normal for the Bills to use a very high percentage of their first round picks on RBs and DBs. The RBs and DBs thus drafted would almost invariably go first-contract-and-out, regardless of level of play. That's not a way to build a winning football team.

 

In the case of Edmunds, he hasn't lived up to his draft status, but he's still a useful football player. One objection to him is the high level of variability in his play. He could have a great game one week, as he did in the playoff game against Baltimore. Then he could have a stinker the next week, as was the case in the playoff game against the Chiefs. I'd almost rather have a player who was reliably average each and every week, than a guy whose level of play is like a roller coaster ride.

 

I'd like to see the Bills take a MLB in the draft, but I don't want that MLB to come in rounds 1 or 2. Suppose for example they take a MLB in the 4th round. That creates several possibilities. 1) Maybe the 4th rounder is the next Matt Milano. 2) Maybe Edmunds improves. 3) Maybe Edmunds is willing to sign an extension priced at his actual worth, instead of the overpriced 5th year option.

 

Any of those three possibilities would get us out of needing to use an early pick on a MLB in the 2021 draft.

 

I would move him around more.  He has great length for pass lanes, but I like him lined up in the A gap or outside and attack the qb.  He isnt as physical as many would like but in the modern NFL that isnt a nessesity.  

[just1hugheser]

it would be nice if our defense was more aggressive but thats not how its designed, and especially with our lack of lockdown/man corners we don't have the luxury of leaving guys on islands.

[BuffaloRebound]

Cleveland had no problems exercising Ward and Mayfields 5th year options in same year. 

[Wagon Circler]

And the answer to this debate is... Nick Bolton.

A natural middle linebacker with great instincts.

^Then trade Edmunds for a pick.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Wagon Circler

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 4/19/2021 at 11:49 AM, FireChans said:

No it’s really not. A 22 year old rookie and a 22 year old 3 year pro are quite different. This is pretty obvious.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?   Yes the two are quite different, I never claimed they werent.

 

I stand by what I wrote, a 22 yr old  pro football player by any reasonable definition is a young player.

[The Jokeman]

On 4/22/2021 at 3:39 PM, SoCal Deek said:

Greater than great taste vs less filling?  Come on Man!

Pahlease everyone know the best debate was Flutie vs Johnson

On 4/23/2021 at 1:32 PM, BuffaloRebound said:

Cleveland had no problems exercising Ward and Mayfields 5th year options in same year. 

Cleveland also has a tons of cap room. 

[Rochesterfan]

On 4/22/2021 at 1:00 PM, Arm of Harm said:

 

I hear you. During the drought years, it was normal for the Bills to use a very high percentage of their first round picks on RBs and DBs. The RBs and DBs thus drafted would almost invariably go first-contract-and-out, regardless of level of play. That's not a way to build a winning football team.

 

In the case of Edmunds, he hasn't lived up to his draft status, but he's still a useful football player. One objection to him is the high level of variability in his play. He could have a great game one week, as he did in the playoff game against Baltimore. Then he could have a stinker the next week, as was the case in the playoff game against the Chiefs. I'd almost rather have a player who was reliably average each and every week, than a guy whose level of play is like a roller coaster ride.

 

I'd like to see the Bills take a MLB in the draft, but I don't want that MLB to come in rounds 1 or 2. Suppose for example they take a MLB in the 4th round. That creates several possibilities. 1) Maybe the 4th rounder is the next Matt Milano. 2) Maybe Edmunds improves. 3) Maybe Edmunds is willing to sign an extension priced at his actual worth, instead of the overpriced 5th year option.

 

Any of those three possibilities would get us out of needing to use an early pick on a MLB in the 2021 draft.

 

 

The only question I have is when you say: “He hasn’t lived up to his draft status” - what exactly pushes that.

 

 As a late 1st round pick - he has been voted outright to 1 ProBowl and was an alternate to another in 3 years.  He is the caller of the defense and plays on over 90% of the snaps (among the top on the team).  He was an integral part of 2018 and 2019 defenses that were top 5 and excellent against the pass.

 

What exactly do we expect from a draft pick to live up to his position.  
 

If people want to say MLB is not a premier position and is not worthy of a huge salary - I can get behind that, but if I draft a guy in the 1st round and in his first 3 years he goes to 2 ProBowls and the defense is Top 5 twice and top 10 in a weird year where he and his LB mate were both injured - I am ecstatic with what he has given me.

 

I have no issues with the Bills looking to draft a LB and maybe having to trade or move on from Edmunds after the season to maintain salary integrity, but it is position based not that he has not lived up to his draft spot.  Everyone complained and wanted Vander Esch after the early part of year 1, but Edmunds has been shown to be a better choice and is a top AFC LB year after year.

 

 

[FireChans]

49 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?   Yes the two are quite different, I never claimed they werent.

 

I stand by what I wrote, a 22 yr old  pro football player by any reasonable definition is a young player.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

EJ Manuel was young too. Basically a rookie.

 

zzzzzzzzzz

[soflabillsfan1]

It's funny how Pro Bowls all of a sudden mean something.  I thought it was a big popularity contest?

[Coach Tuesday]

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The only question I have is when you say: “He hasn’t lived up to his draft status” - what exactly pushes that.

 

 As a late 1st round pick - he has been voted outright to 1 ProBowl and was an alternate to another in 3 years.  He is the caller of the defense and plays on over 90% of the snaps (among the top on the team).  He was an integral part of 2018 and 2019 defenses that were top 5 and excellent against the pass.

 

 

Not to nitpick but he was chosen at 16.  Not sure this changes your position but it's worth pointing out, especially because (i) the Bills spent assets to trade up for him; and (ii) there were better LBs taken after him.

[Rochesterfan]

3 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Not to nitpick but he was chosen at 16.  Not sure this changes your position but it's worth pointing out, especially because (i) the Bills spent assets to trade up for him; and (ii) there were better LBs taken after him.

 

Doesn’t really change much for me - of all the LBs drafted that were available to the Bills (so excluding Chubb and Smith) - Edmunds is beat by Leonard and maybe Warner - it is not like he is a the 10th or 12th best LB from that draft.

 

We selected Edmunds as the 3rd LB and after 3 years he is still easily top 5 out of his draft class and top 3 at his position.  Even as good as a guy like Smith has been being drafted 8 picks higher - Edmunds has more ProBowls, more passes defended, more forced fumbles, and nearly matches him in tackles.  Guys like Chubb and Leonard are more outside guys so some different stats, but both are probably better in their position.

 

The other inside guy in Warner has more tackles, but less sacks, less passes defended, and the same number of INTs.  So for me - you have 3 quality inside LBs from that draft in Edmunds, Smith, and Warner and the numbers between all 3 are close.  I also think each of those 3 guys are fits for the teams that got them.

 

So again - I am not sure what to expect as we drafted him to do exactly what he has been doing and for the role we have there was one LB in Warner drafted after him that is better.

[Turk71]

Edmunds looks completely lost out there at times, is often out of position and is a liability in coverage. The thing he seems best at is using his speed to chase down ball carriers who got by him. The Bills need better lb play in the middle. 

  Maybe last year's ridiculous Pro Bowl selection will add something to his trade value. At this point there is no way I would be picking up his 5th year $12.5 million option.