Thurman#1 Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) On 2/5/2021 at 3:44 AM, eball said: We'll never know. But I've posted numerous times on this forum that I believe there is one key difference between Josh and Sam. Josh has the drive and "want-to" to improve and be great. I'm pretty certain at this point Sam does not. Buyer beware. Your being "pretty sure" amounts to you having an opinion. And everybody does. You might end up being right. Equally, though, you might not. And yeah, buyer beware. Which is true whenever you get a QB, regardless who he is or how much you give up. Edited February 14, 2021 by Thurman#1
Thurman#1 Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) On 2/5/2021 at 3:36 AM, dave mcbride said: Interesting take. It's got me thinking too - which top 10 QBs didn't produce for their first three years and then flourished a few years later, either for the team that drafted them or elsewhere? I can think of Jim Plunkett, Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Tannehill (not sure if he fits; he was never really that bad) and Alex Smith. Steve Bartkowski (questionable, but he did have a couple of very good seasons 6-7 years after he was drafted #1 overall), Vinnie Testaverde (similar), and Jeff George (believe it or not, similar) all semi-qualify too. Maybe Sam Bradford? He played pretty well over the course of 17 games for Minnesota before getting hurt again. Maybe not. Anyway, your larger point stands: it's basically a sea of continued failure going back decades for top ten picks who fail out of the gate: http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/positions/qb. Eli Manning's passer rating topped out at 77.0 in his first three years. Many wanted to label him a bust. Steve McNair. Guys like that are out there. And the only thing that's substantively different about a guy picked in the top ten from a guy picked later is the perception of that guy. Top ten guys may get wasted more profligately, put to start on bad teams when they'd be better off taking the Drew Brees / Patrick Mahomes route. And then it's also pretty fair to say that their development years are treated as their ceiling more than for guys drafted a bit later. People say, "hey, we've seen this guy for three years, we know who he is," which many times just isn't true. Guys like Brees, Alex Smith, Eli and many others take longer to develop sometimes than would be ideal. A guy like Jake Delhomme, on the other hand, because he's not thrown right away to the wolves, gets to sit and learn for a while and can become a pretty good quarterback later in his career without the "top ten" perception forcing him in too early. Same for Aaron Rodgers. Brett Favre. A very significant number of bust top tens, if treated the same way, might well have become good QBs. Or if given a second chance might have proven themselves later. Edited February 14, 2021 by Thurman#1 1 1
Richard Noggin Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said: A very significant number of bust top tens, if treated the same way, might well have become good QBs. Or if given a second chance might have proven themselves later. I touched on this a little last night, I think: Many fans fail to acknowledge or appreciate the mathematically impressive variability of the NFL. So many compounding layers of interdependent variables influencing every outcome. It really...complicates things.
eball Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Your being "pretty sure" amounts to you having an opinion. And everybody does. You might end up being right. Equally, though, you might not. And yeah, buyer beware. Which is true whenever you get a QB, regardless who he is or how much you give up. I’ve never suggested anything I said was more than an opinion. I do, however, attempt to back up my opinions with pertinent observations and logical deduction.
Doc Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve. Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits. At best I see him as a low-end starter.
GunnerBill Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, Doc said: I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve. Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits. At best I see him as a low-end starter. He might not have any elite physical traits but he isn't exactly lacking physically. He has plenty of arm and he can run. For some reason Gase didn't want him to use his legs. I agree that most of his issues are mental. Josh has improved his processing ability so much since coming into the league Darnold hasn't. Now he has been poorly coached and stuck behind a bad line which makes it harder and that is why I think if Darnold has any chance he needs a fresh start in a new place.
eball Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 31 minutes ago, Doc said: I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve. Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits. At best I see him as a low-end starter. Just to clarify my earlier points regarding Darnold — it’s not that I think he doesn’t want to get better. I’m sure he does. It’s that based upon what I’ve observed I don’t think he has the internal drive to do what’s necessary to get there, whereas Josh has that in spades. I want to be a scratch golfer, but my handicap is 14 and hasn’t gone down in a year. You know why? Because I’m not practicing every day, studying my swing, going to the range several times a week and putting in the work. There are days when I’m playing like a single-digit handicap and days when I’m playing like a 20. I have the ability; I’ll get the results I want when I decide to dedicate the time to it. Something needs to happen to Darnold to make him commit to — you guessed it — the PROCESS of becoming a star quarterback. All the excuses in the world about different coaches and different receivers doesn’t impact how a player dedicates himself to his craft.
JohnC Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 On 2/4/2021 at 12:21 PM, YoloinOhio said: I’m not a huge Darnold fan going back to his usc days but if Rosen fetched a 2nd... not at all surprised Darnold could go for a late 1st. Jimmy G also went for a 2nd and he had only started like 4 games. One team that would be interested in him and would be willing to give up a first round pick would be Washington. It would secure the qb position with a young player with some experience and it would come with a relatively modest cost of one pick. 1
Doc Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: He might not have any elite physical traits but he isn't exactly lacking physically. He has plenty of arm and he can run. For some reason Gase didn't want him to use his legs. I agree that most of his issues are mental. Josh has improved his processing ability so much since coming into the league Darnold hasn't. Now he has been poorly coached and stuck behind a bad line which makes it harder and that is why I think if Darnold has any chance he needs a fresh start in a new place. I agree. But having good skills and mental issues is what makes me think he'll only be just a low-end starter at best. I'm not sure how many HC's/coaching staffs are out there who can work with him enough to get him where he needs to be or even if he has the drive (see below). 1 minute ago, eball said: Just to clarify my earlier points regarding Darnold — it’s not that I think he doesn’t want to get better. I’m sure he does. It’s that based upon what I’ve observed I don’t think he has the internal drive to do what’s necessary to get there, whereas Josh has that in spades. I want to be a scratch golfer, but my handicap is 14 and hasn’t gone down in a year. You know why? Because I’m not practicing every day, studying my swing, going to the range several times a week and putting in the work. There are days when I’m playing like a single-digit handicap and days when I’m playing like a 20. I have the ability; I’ll get the results I want when I decide to dedicate the time to it. Something needs to happen to Darnold to make him commit to — you guessed it — the PROCESS of becoming a star quarterback. All the excuses in the world about different coaches and different receivers doesn’t impact how a player dedicates himself to his craft. I agree with you. I don't sense that Darnold loves football enough to want to make the extraordinary effort to become a great QB. But by the same token, I don't think he has it in him to become one anyway. I don't think Saleh/his coaching staff will be able to take him to the next level, which means another lost season and then probably a career of bouncing-around.
GunnerBill Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 46 minutes ago, Doc said: I agree. But having good skills and mental issues is what makes me think he'll only be just a low-end starter at best. I'm not sure how many HC's/coaching staffs are out there who can work with him enough to get him where he needs to be or even if he has the drive (see below). I agree with you. I don't sense that Darnold loves football enough to want to make the extraordinary effort to become a great QB. But by the same token, I don't think he has it in him to become one anyway. I don't think Saleh/his coaching staff will be able to take him to the next level, which means another lost season and then probably a career of bouncing-around. We will see. I think Darnold cares. I think at times he cares too much and is trying to force things that aren't there. I think he needs to move on though. Best for him and the Jets IMO.
Doc Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: We will see. I think Darnold cares. I think at times he cares too much and is trying to force things that aren't there. I think he needs to move on though. Best for him and the Jets IMO. I agree. Again I don't think this current regime will get him where he need to be.
GreggTX Posted February 15, 2021 Posted February 15, 2021 A 1st round pick for Darnold? Who the heck is going to do that?
Xwnyer Posted February 15, 2021 Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/4/2021 at 12:16 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said: https://www.nj.com/jets/2021/02/nfl-rumors-jets-can-get-late-1st-round-draft-pick-for-sam-darnold-espns-adam-schefter-reports.html A late 1st round, but still. Someone is drinking way to much
RiotAct Posted February 15, 2021 Posted February 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, GreggTX said: A 1st round pick for Darnold? Who the heck is going to do that? the Texans. Oh, wait a second...
BuffaloRebound Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 2nd rounder at most for Darnold. Was in a bad situation but showed almost no improvement in 3 years. I think I’d take a chance on Mariota over Darnold.
PrimeTime101 Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 On 2/14/2021 at 9:34 AM, Doc said: I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve. Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits. At best I see him as a low-end starter. this is some amazing assumptions going on here... got any media to support this assumption? from anywhere?
Doc Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 5 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: this is some amazing assumptions going on here... got any media to support this assumption? from anywhere? The only assumption was saying I believe that Donald does want to improve. I don’t know what’s going on in his mind but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. As for the rest, after seeing him in college and his first three years in the NFL, those are my observations.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 16, 2021 Author Posted February 16, 2021 According to this, 5 teams have called and the Jets are putting them off: https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/new-york-jets-continue-to-receive-trade-interest-for-quarterback-sam-darnold Quote Last week, Sports Illustrated's Albert Breer reported that four teams had reached out to New York about a possible trade for the 23-year-old quarterback. Breer revealed on Monday that more have called since then. At least five different teams reaching out gives the Jets quite a few options if they decide to trade Darnold in the near future. According to Breer, however, New York is still giving those teams the same answer: "check back with us soon."
PrimeTime101 Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 50 minutes ago, Doc said: The only assumption was saying I believe that Donald does want to improve. I don’t know what’s going on in his mind but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. As for the rest, after seeing him in college and his first three years in the NFL, those are my observations. YEA THAT assumption lol... crazy
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: According to this, 5 teams have called and the Jets are putting them off: https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/new-york-jets-continue-to-receive-trade-interest-for-quarterback-sam-darnold Holding out for what the Texans will be bringing to the table I'm sure .
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