Could Marty Schottenheimer Have Turned Around The Bills in 2010?

[RyanC883]

that's interesting.  Wonder why Ralph didn't like him?  Gailey was not a bad hire, terrible talent on those teams.  Also, Schottenheimer's son likely turned down the interview because his Dad wanted the job.  

 

I'm not sure if Marty could have turned the Bills around in 2010.  Such poor talent/drafting.  

[mushypeaches]

I remember a time when "Marty-ball" would have been an improvement on whatever we trotted out during the Dick Jauron tenure

 

"It's hard to score points in the NFL"

 

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, loyal2dagame said:

I think no,  for the same reason he wasn't successful in Washington. 

Bad ownership..... 

 

i'm not sure if the ownership (Ralph) was the issue.  I think a series of incompetent GM's was more the issue.  Since Marty never got another HC job after Washington, it appears there was more than just Ralph uncomfortable with him coaching again, for whatever reason.  

[JohnNord]

5 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

No, the front office couldn’t draft, and ownership wasn’t going to pay free agents or assistant coaches. 

That’s partially true... RCW or Littman were notoriously stingy when it came to coaches. Not just with salaries but also with relinquishing any power.   Coaching and scouting staffs were very thin - likely because whoever pulled the purse strings was cheap AF.  Not a problem with the Pegulas as owners years later. 

The salary cap was well established by this time.  They Bills spent on free agent they just picked the wrong players and gave them bloated contracts.  Marty likely would not have a say in this process so you could be right 

 

 

[JohnNord]

11 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

that's interesting.  Wonder why Ralph didn't like him?  Gailey was not a bad hire, terrible talent on those teams.  Also, Schottenheimer's son likely turned down the interview because his Dad wanted the job.  

 

I'm not sure if Marty could have turned the Bills around in 2010.  Such poor talent/drafting.  

I disagree..... Gailey was a very bad hire which is why he was canned four year later - and really should’ve been fired after year 3.

 

Keep in mind at that the time there were a number of big name coaches available in college and NFL - as well as your usual “hot” coordinators.  Who did Ralph hire for one of the most important roles in the organization?

 

The unemployed coach sitting on the couch for two years because no one wanted him. 
 

The only good thing you can say about Chan is that he put together a good offense with limited talent that was fun to watch.  
 

As a head coach he was terrible. 100X worse at game day management than McDermott who is much maligned by the fan base.  

Chan also was bad with coaches.  Refused to fire George Edward when he should have and then when he did fire him he replaced him with an incumbent coach (Wanny) who was part of the problem.  
 

Chan = great guy.  Good OC.  HORRIBLE HC

 

[ProcessAccepted]

59 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

Snyder is such a tool. What is Washington's record since he bought the team? The whole Spurrier thing was hilarious. I remember his first preseason when they were running up scores and some people thought they'd be a real force when the regular season started.

 

Rivera seems to have them on the right path at least.

Yeah Spurrier trying to prove that Danny Wuerffel was an NFL caliber QB was hilarious. Here's Synder's record by year since he bought the team in 1999.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/executives/SnydDa0.htm

 

Hopefully he stays out of things and lets Ron Rivera do his thing. My bet is he won't be able to.

[RobbRiddick]

10 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Yeah Spurrier trying to prove that Danny Wuerffel was an NFL caliber QB was hilarious. Here's Synder's record by year since he bought the team in 1999.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/executives/SnydDa0.htm

 

Hopefully he stays out of things and lets Ron Rivera do his thing. My bet is he won't be able to.

 

Wow, that's some interesting reading. 3 double digit winning seasons since 1999. And the guy has pretty much tried everything to make them a winner (except keep his nose out). They went for the huge FA splashes when they signed guys like Bruce to over inflated salaries, trading up for RGIII, hotshot college coaches like Spurrier. Hotshot Super Bowl winning coaches like Shanny. He even tried to recapture the glory years by bringing Gibbs out of retirement. All with not a lot to show for it.

 

 

[Rico]

I don’t think so. Belichick couldn’t have done it either. Nothing was going to change until Ralph was long out of the picture.

[purple haze]

6 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I came across this info on Twitter today.  Sad new for Marty Schottenheimer as it appears he has been moved to hospice from his issues with dementia.  
 

 

Someone shared this article from Tim Graham in 2010 where Marty said he wanted to be the Bills HC with Buddy Nix (who he worked with in SD) Ralph for some reason was not comfortable with him and would never consider it.  
 

If Marty is HC in 2010 do you think he turns around Buffalo?  If you look at his record, he was able to turn around every franchise, with the exception of his 1 year stint in Washington.  

I also always found it to be odd that he he never was given a second chance in the NFL after going 14-2 as the top see in the AFC. 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/9487/marty-schottenheimer-wanted-bills-gig

 

 

His history as a coach indicates they would have been a much better team if he were in charge.

[Don Dokken]

Marty would have made Torell Troup a star!!

 

Nah, I agree with others that the rot was so deep at that time that he would have had little chance for true success. Still, would have loved to have him. The franchise so badly needed respectability at that time and he would have brought some.

[Bferra13]

Not going to speculate on the past. But very sad news. Marty seems to be a very good person and God bless.

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I disagree..... Gailey was a very bad hire which is why he was canned four year later - and really should’ve been fired after year 3.

 

Keep in mind at that the time there were a number of big name coaches available in college and NFL - as well as your usual “hot” coordinators.  Who did Ralph hire for one of the most important roles in the organization?

 

The unemployed coach sitting on the couch for two years because no one wanted him. 
 

The only good thing you can say about Chan is that he put together a good offense with limited talent that was fun to watch.  
 

As a head coach he was terrible. 100X worse at game day management than McDermott who is much maligned by the fan base.  

Chan also was bad with coaches.  Refused to fire George Edward when he should have and then when he did fire him he replaced him with an incumbent coach (Wanny) who was part of the problem.  
 

Chan = great guy.  Good OC.  HORRIBLE HC

 

Chan was fired after 3 seasons, not 4. He was here 2010, 2011 and 2012. And while I agree with a lot of the rest I always saw the defensive coordinator thing differently. I don't think George Edwards was a bad coach. He had awful talent in 2010, slightly better in 2011 and did make a nice jump that year defensively. They finally gave the talent a major upgrade after firing him - signing Mario and drafting Gilmore - and then hired Wanny who was an awful coach and the defense regressed. Edwards was one in a long line of Bills coordinators who was assigned too much blame by the fanbase for poor performance that was almost entirely a result of crap talent.

[JohnNord]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Chan was fired after 3 seasons, not 4. He was here 2010, 2011 and 2012. And while I agree with a lot of the rest I always saw the defensive coordinator thing differently. I don't think George Edwards was a bad coach. He had awful talent in 2010, slightly better in 2011 and did make a nice jump that year defensively. They finally gave the talent a major upgrade after firing him - signing Mario and drafting Gilmore - and then hired Wanny who was an awful coach and the defense regressed. Edwards was one in a long line of Bills coordinators who was assigned too much blame by the fanbase for poor performance that was almost entirely a result of crap talent.

Thanks for clearing that up but I still don’t agree.  Coordinators don’t really get the benefit of the doubt as compared to head coaches.  If you struggle for on year there’s a good chance your job is in jeopardy.

 

As far your points about Edwards - the stats don’t support it.  The Bills were ranked 28th in team defense in 2010 and were still pretty bad.  Many had called for Edwards to be fired and the defense was lifeless compared to the offense.  In 2011, the defense was ranked 30th.   How is that a jump?  I even remember Chan’s fateful words for firing Edwards “this is a production business.”
 

Under Wannstedt they were still terrible but were actually slightly better finishing at 26th overall.  
 

So I can’t buy the argument that Edwards was a good choice for defensive coordinator.  He really wasn’t good

 

As far as Chan sucking as HC this is one reason why.  He should have fired Edwards after year 1 or atleast replaced him with someone outside of the organization that wasn’t involved with coaching one of the worst defense in the NFL.  
 

That’s why I like about a coach like Sean McDermott.  He always has made the right decision on coaches.  
 

If a coach struggled, he isn’t one to keep them like Chan did with Edwards.  We’ve seen this many times with Rick Dennison, Danny Crossman, Juan Castillo, Terry Robiske etc. 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Thanks for clearing that up but I still don’t agree.  Coordinators don’t really get the benefit of the doubt as compared to head coaches.  If you struggle for on year there’s a good chance your job is in jeopardy.

 

As far your points about Edwards - the stats don’t support it.  The Bills were ranked 28th in team defense in 2010 and were still pretty bad.  Many had called for Edwards to be fired and the defense was lifeless compared to the offense.  In 2011, the defense was ranked 30th.   How is that a jump?  I even remember Chan’s fateful words for firing Edwards “this is a production business.”
 

Under Wannstedt they were still terrible but were actually slightly better finishing at 26th overall.  
 

So I can’t buy the argument that Edwards was a good choice for defensive coordinator.  He really wasn’t good

 

As far as Chan sucking as HC this is one reason why.  He should have fired Edwards after year 1 or atleast replaced him with someone outside of the organization that wasn’t involved with coaching one of the worst defense in the NFL.  
 

That’s why I like about a coach like Sean McDermott.  He always has made the right decision on coaches.  
 

If a coach struggled, he isn’t one to keep them like Chan did with Edwards.  We’ve seen this many times with Rick Dennison, Danny Crossman, Juan Castillo, Terry Robiske etc. 

 

 

 

 

So maybe the numbers didn't look great but I actually think the played better in 2011 than 2010. Edwards is not a top level DC but he has been a good coach in this league and his problems in Buffalo were related to the awful talent he had. It wasn't on coaching. It was on talent. Those Bills rosters 2010 and 2011 were insanely awful.

[machine gun kelly]

11 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

Apparently he was diagnosed in 2014, so not sure if he would have his capacities long enough.

 

Anyways, the team was un-workable at that point.  It was Russ Brandon's team and nothing other than a new owner would change that.  

 

 

 

Was anyone ever so coveted/rumored to be a Bills head coach through the drought than Schottenheimer (probably Haslett)?

Yes, Cowher.  He was rumored more times than I can count.  Marty was a good coach, but couldn’t go far in the playoffs.  I thought SD back in the day made a mistake after he finished 14-2, and that team never recovered.

 

I feel bad fir the guy as he seemed to be a fair and hard coach.  Ross Tucker often talks of him for the year he was under Marty, and stated he was an excellent coach, but old school.  I hate to hear if anyone losing their faculties as that is an awful disease.  I’m very thankful no one in my family ever had it, but I dealt with the pain my ex-wife had losing her grandfather the year before we met.  She described in such detail as her grandparents practically raised her and her sister to see such a strong guy with good character lose his ability for rationale thought.  I didn’t know about his condition, so thanks for sharing as I’ll say a prayer for the guy.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

Yes, Cowher.  He was rumored more times than I can count.  Marty was a good coach, but couldn’t go far in the playoffs.  I thought SD back in the day made a mistake after he finished 14-2, and that team never recovered.

 

I feel bad fir the guy as he seemed to be a fair and hard coach.  Ross Tucker often talks of him for the year he was under Marty, and stated he was an excellent coach, but old school.  I hate to hear if anyone losing their faculties as that is an awful disease.  I’m very thankful no one in my family ever had it, but I dealt with the pain my ex-wife had losing her grandfather the year before we met.  She described in such detail as her grandparents practically raised her and her sister to see such a strong guy with good character lose his ability for rationale thought.  I didn’t know about his condition, so thanks for sharing as I’ll say a prayer for the guy.

 

It is a horrible disease. I have had two granparents go through it and my dad as recently been diagnosed too (and is only early 60s). 

 

When my grandad was diagnosed, pretty early on my grandmother went into hospital for an unrelated issue and was going to be in for a week or so. She was his carer so I took a week off work and went and lived with him while she was away. Man it is hard. Really hard. The level of confusion, forgetfulness and frustration is off the charts. One evening I literally nipped out for 30 minutes to go and have a cup of tea with a mate of mine who lives down the road from my grandparents and is in the RAF and was recently back from a tour of duty. I got back to my grandad half an hour later and he was sitting in the dark and completely confused as to who I was, why I was in the house and where my grandmother was. Heartbreaking.

 

I wish Schotty the best. And I say this from a place of love and respect but also experience of this illness.... the chances are if he was diagnosed in 2014 then hiring him in 2010 would not have been a good idea. Diagnosis often comes at least two years after the very beginning of the mental decline in my experience.

[machine gun kelly]

You’re probably right GB.  Given you’re family history, I hope you’re seeing a Neuro yearly if insurance allows to make sure if you catch it, you detect early.  I’m very sorry for you’re tough times bud.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

You’re probably right GB.  Given you’re family history, I hope you’re seeing a Neuro yearly if insurance allows to make sure if you catch it, you detect early.  I’m very sorry for you’re tough times bud.  

 

Yea. The type my dad has is not hereditary and is almost certainly sports related. Too many years heading soccer balls and clashing heads in attempting to head soccer balls. You guys might not have seen it but one member of England's 1966 World Cup winning team died from dementia recently and another was just diagnosed. It is soccer's CTE crisis and I suspect over the next 10 years it will become a story. 

 

We are lucky to have a National Health Service free at the point of use over here and I believe given my family history I will qualify for the screening programme once I hit 50 (I have a few years left before then yet I hasten to add!)

 

Horrible disease though. Just such a brutal way to see a loved one go.

[Nihilarian]

Marty was an ex Buffalo Bills player 1965-1968. 

 

Gm Buddy Nix had to go through the owner for any HCing hire and he wanted to hire Marty and Marty desperately wanted the job as well, Wilson said NO! 

 

My thinking is that Wilson was a known micromanager and he knew that Shotty would not put up with that for a min. 

 

Before he left Buffalo, Bills HC Dick Jauron let it be known that Wilson was on the phone to him from Detroit for hours daily during the season. This was a big reason as to why the team couldn't hire a decent HC at that time. Once coaches heard that news, even the assistants that had given the ok to be interviewed then cancelled.

 

Nix was getting desperate himself back then, so he got the ok to hire a guy who had been fired  year previous as KC's OC. He was demoted as play caller by HC Todd Haley KC. 

 

The pitch that Gailey made to Wilson was that he could win games without big name stars on the team. Which he basically did in Buffalo...

 

Gailey was supposedly some offensive guru...his first mistake in Buffalo was putting all his cards on Trent Edwards who he named as starter in Buffalo. To show how inept Gailey really was, he stated that Brian Brohm, Edwards and Fitzpatrick were all about equal as QB's. Yet, named Edwards the starter. Only to cut him after two games. 

 

His second mistake was drafting RB CJ Spiller in the first #9 overall when the team and recently traded away all pro LT Jason Peters.  The Bills were desperate for a decent LT. Seventh round pick Demetress Bell filled that role for awhile. (The Bills still had Marshawn Lynch on the roster too).

 

Gailey was simply lucky that Fitz was on the roster or that 2010 season would have been more of a disaster then 4-10! Fitz running for his life every play because the offensive line was so bad. 

 

Buddy Nix was another clueless GM who bragged about signing an O linemen only to cut him after six games. Nix did manage to find two O linemen off the street to help that line though. 

 

 

The simple answer is YES!

 

Schottenheimer would have turned around the Buffalo Bills very quickly. Marty knew talent! He would have hired the right assistant coaches while building a solid team in Buffalo...even with Buddy Nix and Russ Brandon. 

[corta765]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Edwards was one in a long line of Bills coordinators who was assigned too much blame by the fanbase for poor performance that was almost entirely a result of crap talent.

 

One thing that was really bewildering talent wise was how Chan and the team addressed or lacked addressing the QB position. Starting 2010 it was pretty well known they needed a guy and once Fitz cooled in 2011 it would've made sense to draft one that offseason. I always felt the shakyness and lack of plan at the QB spot limited the teams potential upwards. Even if the team would've made the playoffs in 2011 or 12 they weren't a contender and still needed a guy. Had the Bills properly went for a QB the way they did in the offseason when they drafted Allen they made have stabilized things earlier. EJ Manuel ended up not being the guy but at least they added weapons and had more of a plan when they brought him in.