Stopping Travis Kelce

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

Tony Romo agrees with you as he said this repeatedly during the telecast. 
 

Problem is, Kelce is the least of the evils that KC presents. Kelce is less apt to beat you on a quick, long chunk play vs. Hill and their other options, so the idea is to make KC earn it more with Kelce. 
 

But, good luck with that. Nobody has done that with any consistency since Mahomes took the reins.

I hear you.

 

But honestly, what does jamming Kelce prevent you to do with a guy like Hill?  They can get you on the crossers without middle zone, but other than that, what are you schematically limited by?

[97bills]

Just now, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

And what just happened?

 

no run game led to FG’s and limited TD’s. 
 

they didn’t have to defend the run so they covered all the receivers.  

I’m not saying don’t run it lol but just trying to keep the ball away won’t work I no we have to run it I agree 💯 and I’m hoping we get a great running back this year. But to beat KC you have to be great in all 3 phases I mean we were up 9-0 and they didn’t even flinch most teams would be like oh boy this ant starting good and maybe a little panic we need the horses to beat them. That’s all I’m saying 

[97bills]

3 hours ago, Billl said:

That’s probably your best bet, but most teams don’t have that guy.  I knew the game was over when the Bills put White on him in the slot and Kelce got across his face so immediately and ran away from him.  It was like watching prime Edelman getting open except Kelce did it against a guy 7 inches shorter and 85 pounds lighter than he is.  I’m pretty sure White would have been trampled if he went for a jam at the line, so that didn’t leave Buffalo with many options.

 

The key to slowing the Chiefs is to get consistent pressure with your front four while bracketing Hill and Kelce with safeties over the top and hoping your other Corners can stay with Hardman and Watkins long enough for the rush to get home.

This is it pass rush front 4 has to get there no other way to stop KC and you got to score while your defense gets some stops because KC will fire back ask 49ers they had the defense but couldn’t finish them off with offense 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I hear you.

 

But honestly, what does jamming Kelce prevent you to do with a guy like Hill?  They can get you on the crossers without middle zone, but other than that, what are you schematically limited by?

Schematically? Nothing, really. Although Reid’s own schemes pressure opposing DCs schematically, there are always ways to matchup the Xs and Os. The most limiting factor is the sheer mismatch in elite physical talent that they have, especially at the QB position. I’d venture to say that Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill are ALL better at their positions than anyone we have on defense is at theirs. Elite talent always trumps schemes. And any coach will tell you that. Throw in additional good talent like Hardman and Watkins when he’s healthy, and it’s almost unfair. 
 

That said, I like Tampa’s front seven, especially their LBs who are athletic in their own right, so it’s gonna be interesting to see how they approach things.

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

4 hours ago, QCity said:

 

I don't think you'll stop him, but you can slow him somewhat. I'm a big advocate of using a LB to chip him at the LOS to disrupt timing. It will be very interesting to see how the Bucs use David and White against him.

If David stops Kelce, we better pick him up in FA and let Milano walk.

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, ALF said:

Edmunds matches Kelce in size and speed , just go man with him and press at LOS .  then double team Hill . 

You would think that would've been the obvious strategy. But Sean is madly in Love with his cover 2 zone. I'm sure we'll play more man when we play them this season.

[WideNine]

4 hours ago, Buddo said:

You could try it.

 

I doubt it will work though.

 

The problem is that Kelce, while being a big unit, is also strong, and has WR moves if he needs them, to both get off the LOS, and open.

 

I do think that the best way to try and limit his effectiveness, is to harass him at the LOS, so you have a chance of messing up his routes, and the sort of 'normal' timing.

 

I also think that to do that, you need a guy with some smarts, speed and good size as well, and I'm talking LBer type size, not just a big DB.

 

That guy also needs to try and play 'man' on him, but with help in the backfield from a DB, in case he loses him.

 

Even then, you aren't going to totally stop him, mainly because of the understanding that he and Mahomes have when they need to go 'off script'.

 

I think that one of the keys to beating the Chiefs, is to actually run a genuine 4-3, with the extra LBer being there to try and disrupt Kelce.

 

 

I agree and think we cannot wish that kind of player away, or ignore TE's and hope they don't continue to burn us. Heck the Fin's Gesicki had a field day against our defense too.

 

The Bills have to get physical and challenge those guys. They wont win every match-up, but that is no reason to roll over for them. I would be looking for that larger safety/linebacker hybrid who can jam and skate with TE's. Milano was a bit undersized to hang with the better TEs and may end up walking too... just keeping it real and I know he has a strong fan base so hold off on the pitchforks and torches.

 

Just for example (not that I have any idea who will drop to us, or be at the top of Beane's board), but TCU's Garret Wallow may be an intriguing prospect. He converted from safety to linebacker and is known for his coverage skills. Tested pos for Covid-19 so was not able to attend the senior bowl so maybe gets less looks? I like the part in this draft bio where Jordan Reid says, finishes plays in a hurry by bringing targets down to the ground. Tackling was a fundamental weakness on our defense this past year.

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/2021-nfl-draft-scouting-report--lb-garret-wallow

 

Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah was mentioned earlier on this thread, but he is one of the top LB prospects and has 4.4 speed - most projections have him gone fairly early RD 1.

 

All and all a good draft year depth-wise for some of our team needs (Speedy WRs, Guard/Center, NT, TE's, and coverage LBs). I know you don't reach for need, but if the draft value is there at a need position then why wouldn't you pull the trigger? Really looking forward to the off season moves OBD makes - and also "the sky is falling" dialog that I am sure we will have here😁

 

 

 

 

[ProcessTruster]

10 hours ago, jkeerie said:

One of the things I hate about our D is that we always allow receivers a clean release off the LOS.  You are allowed contact within 5 yards for a reason.  You especially need to this if you don't have a great pass rush.

Bills corners are either not quick, big or strong enough to play press coverage.  Play press and the WRs will beat them multiple times a game, and the pass rush  cannot be relied upon to rush the throw.   Bills are a relatively weak pass rush team needing to play mainly a zone scheme with players that fit that scheme.  It is a conservative approach the recognized the limitations of the roster.  Makes sense to me until guys like AJ grow up and start getting a pass rush.   We don't have pro bowl  Chris Jones and Frank Clark to rush the passer.  So you play zone to take away the big play.

[PrimeTime101]

You have to bump and run Kelce and Hill while playing zone with the rest of the pass catchers out there. Bump them both first to slow them down. As for Hill the safety has to be on his toes and be ready on top of hills rout. So Hyde stays deep and is there at top of the rout.

 

For Kelce after you bump him you double team Kelce with Poyer. the bump has to come from the OLB and a big bump at that. 

 

Then the front 4 has to put pressure with your front 4.   This is exactly how Miami was handling the job.

 

our problem is our DT rotation could not get the job done inside witch let to DE's struggling then LB's having to pick up the slack which is not an easy task for any LB group. Trickle effect.

 

our front 4 needs to get better. Specifically 1 tech DT position. 

 

KC has pro bowl players and specific positions that get them home. We do not.. 

 

Even though we are getting closer do to this amazing QB we have in Josh Allen... so much work to be done.

[RyanC883]

21 hours ago, FireChans said:

So this is a topic that has popped up in a few threads. Obviously Kelce dominated the NFL this season and has been the #1 TE in football for years now.

 

The question is, how do you stop this guy? And how do you stop him and not get burned?

 

I remember a game, I think 2013. Pats versus the Saints. Jimmy Graham, a star TE and arguably one of the best at his peak, he finished with 1200 yards and 16 TDs. BB had Aqib Talib on the roster (pre-Revis). The strategy was to have Talib press coverage on Jimmy G all game. Never let him off the line clean. He finished the game without a catch.

 

Now, the question is, this runs a little anti-McD’s zone defense scheme. Obviously you can run some mix zone-man coverages but man coverage on a TE isn’t something I think we have seen much of. And there is the fact that Jimmy had a rep of being “soft” that I don’t think Kelce does, but Kelce also isn’t a Kittle or Gronk who runs through guys with force.

 

Could the answer to stopping Kelce be a big body strong DB mauling him at the LOS? Is that the kind of player we should be targeting this offseason? Would a strategy like this open us up to getting burned by Hill? You could still bracket coverage on the outside with a high safety.

 

Would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on this, because I think Hill is easier to stop. Or rather, the way to stop or slow him down is more obvious. But the key to beating KC is to slow down Kelce without letting Hill burn you.

 

I think you need to put someone on Kelce for sure, and perhaps even hill.  Maul them at the LOS where you are allowed to bump the receiver.  You simply cannot allow either of these two to have clean breaks.  Mess up the timing a bit, and hope that someone on the front 7 gets to the QB.  

10 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Bills corners are either not quick, big or strong enough to play press coverage.  Play press and the WRs will beat them multiple times a game, and the pass rush  cannot be relied upon to rush the throw.   Bills are a relatively weak pass rush team needing to play mainly a zone scheme with players that fit that scheme.  It is a conservative approach the recognized the limitations of the roster.  Makes sense to me until guys like AJ grow up and start getting a pass rush.   We don't have pro bowl  Chris Jones and Frank Clark to rush the passer.  So you play zone to take away the big play.

 

I disagree with this.  White is strong enough to handle press, so is Jackson.  Wallace might be also.  Poyer is.  And have Edmunds or Milano press Kelce.  I mean, esp. in the KC game, we needed to press Hill with a CB.  Hill is not a "big" guy.  The D is soft zone because that's what Frazier and/or McD love, and it's going to get them killed against KC.  

[frostbitmic]

Try and double team him with a 12th player.

 

[Wizard]

There is only one person capable of stopping Travis Kelce and capable of handling anything....that would Chuck Norris!

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

After the power slam to Diggs I thought we would retaliate against Hill or Kelse. Neither happened and we got bullied all game long at every level.

[Billl]

I just rewatched the game, and Mahomes keyed on Edmunds the entire game.  If his first movement was to drop back into coverage, Mahomes threw underneath him.  If he stepped up, Mahomes threw behind him.  When he was in the right spot, Mahomes moved him to the wrong spot with his eyes or a subtle pump fake.

 

It’s pretty clear that Kansas City saw on film that Edmunds could be manipulated and exploited that advantage all day long.  Frazier tried mixing it up a few times, but that only made things worse.  They called a blitz on the first play if the second half, and Hill broke off a long catch and run.  They tried pressing Hill with Johnson and helping Edmunds, and Kelce ran a clear out that Hill exploited and took for a 71 yard catch and run.  They manned White on him, and it looked like my 8 year old trying to guard my 14 year old.

 

Buffalo couldn’t get any pressure with their front 4, and there’s no workable game plan for slowing down Kansas City that doesn’t involve whipping them up front.

[thenorthremembers]

You dont stop Travis Kelce.  You play the defense that fits your talent to the best of your ability, and then you try to score more points than them with your offense.

 

I was listening to Joe Marino last week and his solution was Hamsah Nasirildeen from FSU.  If Hamsah Nasirildeen was the solution, dont you think he would be going top ten in April?   There isnt some secret formula.  This entire discussion reminds me of the Bills trying everything to stop Gronk ten years ago.  They never had the answer because they tried to solve it with defense.  The secret isnt in stopping the unstoppable player.  The answer is to get your own unstoppable players and score more touchdowns.

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

I just rewatched the game, and Mahomes keyed on Edmunds the entire game.  If his first movement was to drop back into coverage, Mahomes threw underneath him.  If he stepped up, Mahomes threw behind him.  When he was in the right spot, Mahomes moved him to the wrong spot with his eyes or a subtle pump fake.

 

It’s pretty clear that Kansas City saw on film that Edmunds could be manipulated and exploited that advantage all day long.  Frazier tried mixing it up a few times, but that only made things worse.  They called a blitz on the first play if the second half, and Hill broke off a long catch and run.  They tried pressing Hill with Johnson and helping Edmunds, and Kelce ran a clear out that Hill exploited and took for a 71 yard catch and run.  They manned White on him, and it looked like my 8 year old trying to guard my 14 year old.

 

Buffalo couldn’t get any pressure with their front 4, and there’s no workable game plan for slowing down Kansas City that doesn’t involve whipping them up front.

 

That is what I saw too.

 

Edmunds for all his reactive speed has not graded out well the past few years in coverage. Part of it has been his reactive vs instinctive play. He often falls for misdirection and fakes.

 

He does play sideline to sideline cleaning up so I acknowledge his effort and contributions.

 

Dropping him back into zone coverage was a wasted resource in my opinion unless he is coached up to be more disciplined on positioning, and to better diagnose plays. That is tough because usually LBs are taught to follow a QBs eyes, but in zone you still have to be disciplined enough not to be moved away from your zone responsibility.

 

Agree with some that he would have been more useful picking up Kelce when he released off the line and playing man on him.

 

He has the size and speed, not sure if he would win the physical pushoffs and what not, but prefer contested catches to clean routes and uncontested catches.

 

 

 

[WideNine]

On 2/2/2021 at 3:58 AM, PrimeTime101 said:

You have to bump and run Kelce and Hill while playing zone with the rest of the pass catchers out there. Bump them both first to slow them down. As for Hill the safety has to be on his toes and be ready on top of hills rout. So Hyde stays deep and is there at top of the rout.

 

For Kelce after you bump him you double team Kelce with Poyer. the bump has to come from the OLB and a big bump at that. 

 

Then the front 4 has to put pressure with your front 4.   This is exactly how Miami was handling the job.

 

our problem is our DT rotation could not get the job done inside witch let to DE's struggling then LB's having to pick up the slack which is not an easy task for any LB group. Trickle effect.

 

our front 4 needs to get better. Specifically 1 tech DT position. 

 

KC has pro bowl players and specific positions that get them home. We do not.. 

 

Even though we are getting closer do to this amazing QB we have in Josh Allen... so much work to be done.

 

I guarantee if Beane can land a true impact 1-tech NT this whole defense improves across the board.

 

Because your front gets better against the run, you can commit more players to coverage on likely passing situations. You free Oliver from more double-teams to pressure the pocket, QBs cannot step up and are forced left or right into your DEs....

 

It has a domino effect.

 

And yes, you have to contest those routes on Kelce. On Hill, he is just too fast. He creates a 2 yard bubble around him just because he is so elusive. Tough choice, but most teams choose to bracket him not jam him.

 

 

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

4 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

I guarantee if Beane can land a true impact 1-tech NT this whole defense improves across the board.

 

Because your front gets better against the run, you can commit more players to coverage on likely passing situations. You free Oliver from more double-teams to pressure the pocket, QBs cannot step up and are forced left or right into your DEs....

 

It has a domino effect.

 

And yes, you have to contest those routes on Kelce. On Hill, he is just too fast. He creates a 2 yard bubble around him just because he is so elusive. Tough choice, but most teams choose to bracket him not jam him.

 

 

 

 

Thank you... Thank you Thats been my point from moment one.