Why Mahomes is Mahomes

[Figster]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

What makes Mahomes an unusual talent and therefore special is that much like a short stop he can throw the ball with accuracy from almost any platform. It frustrates defenses to no end. Just when they think they have him trapped, he tosses, or fires the ball to a receiver who just a split second ago was covered. Most other QBs are typically running for their lives by that point.

 Doing it with a football shows amazing athleticism and arm strength IMO.

[Billl]

18 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

A tiny fraction of his passes are these trick passes.  Those don't make him the greatest passer by far in the history of the NFL.

 

He has yet to lead the league in passing yards.  Brees did it 3 years in a row and 8 times total, twice passing 5200 yards and 4 times of the 8 were over 5000 yards.

 

Marino, in his 1st year as full time starter (also his 2nd year in the league), he threw for 5084 yards and 48 TDs.  He made the PB his first 5 seasons in the league and was an All Pro in years 2,3,4.   In their first 3 years as starter, they both threw for just under 14,000 yards, Marino 122 TDs and Mahomes 114.  This was 37 years ago.........

 

 

Mahomes is a great passer on a team that passes a lot to a bunch of very good receivers.  The best passer ever (and not even close)?  Not yet...

 

 

4 seasons into his career, Brees had 56 TDs and 38 INTs.  Mahomes has 114 and 24.  He’s also won as many MVPs, Super Bowls, and conference championships as Brees and Marino had in his entire careers combined.  If he wins on Sunday, he could retire and be a first ballot HOFer after only 3 seasons as a starter.

 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Billl said:

4 seasons into his career, Brees had 56 TDs and 38 INTs.  Mahomes has 114 and 24.  He’s also won as many MVPs, Super Bowls, and conference championships as Brees and Marino had in his entire careers combined.  If he wins on Sunday, he could retire and be a first ballot HOFer after only 3 seasons as a starter.

 

 

I'll remind you that the topic is who was the most gifted passer in the history of the NFL, by far, not who was a great QB on great teams.

 

Tom Brady had 2 SB MVPs in his first 3 years-----also not by far the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

[Billl]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I'll remind you that the topic is who was the most gifted passer in the history of the NFL, by far, not who was a great QB on great teams.

 

Tom Brady had 2 SB MVPs in his first 3 years-----also not by far the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

He also had 69 TDs and 38 INTs in his first 3 seasons.  He had 6 TDs and 3 INTs in the postseason.  Mahomes is at 17 and 2 with another game to play. 

[Mr. WEO]

12 minutes ago, Billl said:

He also had 69 TDs and 38 INTs in his first 3 seasons.  He had 6 TDs and 3 INTs in the postseason.  Mahomes is at 17 and 2 with another game to play. 

Yeah so awards don’t contribute to being the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

[zow2]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

 

Yeah, it's just sad that because they're going to be so good for so long, Bills fans will start hating him (if they don't already).

He already is notorious for being passed on by the Bills, so the more he wins, the more people think "could that have been us?" but to see him have an easy time against the Bills in-game, his success will just turn him into a Tom Brady-like heel to our fans.

Being a Texas Tech guy, I've always loved his attitude & watching him play. Talk about a guy who is used to throwing in the wind, it wasn't an issue for him in the insane winds in Lubbock. The thing that makes him really great is you can tell the stage is never too big. He doesn't feel that extra pressure. Not from the fans, the moment, the opponent, the hype, etc.

Glad Josh is coming into his own though. Even if he never reaches the same heights, a single Super Bowl win (or even appearance) would mean the world to me & other Bills fans. I'm still hoping it doesn't end up being a Wentz or Goff situation where he's great for a year, then falls back down to earth, but I have to think his work ethic is what will keep him improving instead of falling apart. Josh holds himself to a high standard, which means he will bust his ass to improve. 

I just hope the one thing he learns from Mahomes is to drown out the hype, the pressure & the moment, and just comfortably play his game. 

 

 

Some good takes there...but there is one thing i will dispute.   There's no way hard core Bills fans can honestly say to themselves they would've drafted Mahomes. 

I followed that 2017 pre-draft hype for months and there was almost no mention of the Bills having any interest in Patrick Mahomes.   It's very easy to say after he throws 50 TD's that sure we should've taken him.  but he was never even under consideration.  Now I definitely was on the Deshaun Watson train and recall hoping we would draft him, but Mahomes? no way.  That was a brilliant move by Andy Reid and he scooped everyone.  Here's one blurb about the KC Chiefs first round grade immediately after that draft from a major website.  Pretty laughable to read now.  Although they gave Chicago a D- for Trubisky so that was fairly accurate.

 

10. Patrick Mahomes, QB Texas Tech — Kansas City Chiefs (from Buffalo)

Grade: C-

Analysis: Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL. And, honestly, he may never be. Between his inconsistent accuracy due to poor mechanics, his tendency to bail from clean pockets and his lack of field vision, he’s going to leave as many big plays on the field as he creates. This was a risky pick.

[Steptide]

I've had no problem with the cheifs in the last 3 years. They've been super fun to watch, other than when they beat the bills. It's their fan base that makes me dislike them at times. They can be the most obnoxious, arrogant fans and makes you want to root against them 

[Success]

I still say Allen has a higher ceiling.

 

So there.

 

[SirAndrew]

Mahomes definitely benefits from the talent around him. You can’t be an elite QB with no talent around you, but some of you need to watch what Alex Smith did with Hill and Kelce. It wasn’t bad, but you’ll fully appreciate that Mahomes is great.

Edited February 2, 2021 by SirAndrew

[Billl]

21 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Yeah so awards don’t contribute to being the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

So who’s the competition?  Marino is the closest comp in terms of pure numbers, but he couldn’t throw on the move the way Mahomes can, and he was a disaster in the postseason.  
 

In his career, Marino threw over 30 TDs twice.  In those seasons, he combined for 40 INTs.  Mahomes has also done it twice while throwing 18 total INTs.

 

I just don’t see how it’s even a debate when his numbers are orders of magnitude better than anyone’s ever have been.  Allen is a special thrower of the ball.  He’s thrown 67 TDs and 31 INTs.  Mahomes is at 114 and 24.

So yeah, awards don’t contribute to it so much as they acknowledge it.

[Southern_Bills]

23 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

 

Some good takes there...but there is one thing i will dispute.   There's no way hard core Bills fans can honestly say to themselves they would've drafted Mahomes. 

I followed that 2017 pre-draft hype for months and there was almost no mention of the Bills having any interest in Patrick Mahomes.   It's very easy to say after he throws 50 TD's that sure we should've taken him.  but he was never even under consideration.  Now I definitely was on the Deshaun Watson train and recall hoping we would draft him, but Mahomes? no way.  That was a brilliant move by Andy Reid and he scooped everyone.  Here's one blurb about the KC Chiefs first round grade immediately after that draft from a major website.  Pretty laughable to read now.  Although they gave Chicago a D- for Trubisky so that was fairly accurate.

 

10. Patrick Mahomes, QB Texas Tech — Kansas City Chiefs (from Buffalo)

Grade: C-

Analysis: Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL. And, honestly, he may never be. Between his inconsistent accuracy due to poor mechanics, his tendency to bail from clean pockets and his lack of field vision, he’s going to leave as many big plays on the field as he creates. This was a risky pick.

Even Tyreek Hill was unimpressed during his first year in practice. Now everyone claims Mahomes was "the best QB workout before the draft ever" which is completely untrue.

 

That takes nothing away from Mahomes, he is in a really good situation so he will continue to prosper. I for one was stoked Buffalo traded down and got Tre, hindsight? Eh Buffalo did just fine.

 

They went from a playoff team with a game manager QB to a playoff team with a great QB, easy jump.

 

Buffalo went from a 9-7 lucky to get in the playoff team to a playoff team because they got better QB play, I think both QBs had a tremendous positive effect on their respective teams, the Chiefs just had more going when Mahomes got there.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

21 minutes ago, Billl said:

So who’s the competition?  Marino is the closest comp in terms of pure numbers, but he couldn’t throw on the move the way Mahomes can, and he was a disaster in the postseason.  
 

In his career, Marino threw over 30 TDs twice.  In those seasons, he combined for 40 INTs.  Mahomes has also done it twice while throwing 18 total INTs.

 

I just don’t see how it’s even a debate when his numbers are orders of magnitude better than anyone’s ever have been.  Allen is a special thrower of the ball.  He’s thrown 67 TDs and 31 INTs.  Mahomes is at 114 and 24.

So yeah, awards don’t contribute to it so much as they acknowledge it.

 
Marino and Brees best passers so far. P Manning is in the discussion.  Marino was doing this in his first few years like Mahomes—over 35 years ago when it was far more difficult to achieve such results.

 

 Maybe Mahomes can keep it up for a career, maybe he can’t (26 TDs in 14 games last year)  Right now he is reproducing what Marino did a long time ago on a better team in a much different era.  In 2011 3 QBs throw for at least 5200 yards and 39 TDs and 16 or fewer INTs—one of whom was Stafford in his first full season as starter!

 

To conclude after only 3 seasons that Mahomes is the best passer ever by far is...a bit premature, to be kind.

[Rc2catch]

Jeez Mahomes has some serious stalker level fans on here. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

So who’s the competition?  Marino is the closest comp in terms of pure numbers, but he couldn’t throw on the move the way Mahomes can, and he was a disaster in the postseason.  
 

In his career, Marino threw over 30 TDs twice.  In those seasons, he combined for 40 INTs.  Mahomes has also done it twice while throwing 18 total INTs.

 

I just don’t see how it’s even a debate when his numbers are orders of magnitude better than anyone’s ever have been.  Allen is a special thrower of the ball.  He’s thrown 67 TDs and 31 INTs.  Mahomes is at 114 and 24.

So yeah, awards don’t contribute to it so much as they acknowledge it.

You simply cannot compare qb stats from the 80s with stats today. Always look at the qb+ ratings in PFR, which measures like to like.

[transplantbillsfan]

Look, Mahomes is a fantastic player, but let's be real about this:

 

Mahomes is Mahomes largely because of system and the talent surrounding him.

 

And that's not a sleight on Mahomes.  Josh Allen improved so much this year because it was his 3rd year in the same system and we acquired Diggs.

 

Neither Mahomes nor Allen are "unicorns...." though I honestly think Allen might be one a little bit more purely for the combination of size and athleticism... but he has to get a few other things going better.  Hell, Brady isn't one.  All the people saying that "oh it was clearly Brady and not the Hoodie" are fooling themselves.  Arians turned that team over to Tom to let him essentially be the coach, and Brady learned everything he knows from New England.  And Brady had more talent around him than he EVER had in New England.

 

Can we please not forget that this same system that Mahomes is playing in saw Alex Smith throw for over 4,000 yards with 26 TDs and 5 INTs with a 104.7 Passer Rating in 15 games.  That was, in other words, Alex Smith's best statistical season of his career BY FAR!!!

 

Ya know why?  Alex Smith in 2017--the year before Mahomes took over--had Andy Reid as his coach and was also throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce.

 

Smith isn't a scrub, but that was a damn good year for a guy who's been "meh" for his whole career.

 

As long as Mahomes has Andy Reid especially along with Kelce and Hill, he'll look like one of the best 2 or 3 QBs in the league.

 

I say 2 or 3 because I really think Allen's comin!!!

 

That's why Mahomes is Mahomes.

Edited February 2, 2021 by transplantbillsfan

[eball]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's the most naturally gifted passer the NFL has ever seen and it's not really close.

 

I’ll take “ridiculously exaggerated opinions” for $1000, Alex. 

[MJS]

Mahomes is Mahomes because his daddy is Mahomes. Literally there is no other reason.

[Chicken Boo]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's the most naturally gifted passer the NFL has ever seen and it's not really close.    

 

 

There I disagree.  Aaron Rodgers has a quicker release, better ball placement and more velocity on his throws.

 

The only thing Mahomes does better is side arm throws and throwing back toward the middle of the field while scrambling to his right.

[Zerovoltz]

.....stardard box score stats........Mahomes checks that box.....but throw that out the window.....

 

If ever there was a stat that demonstrates what makes Mahomes special....what differentiates him from the others at the top.

 

Since Mahomes entered the league, his QBR on 3rd and 15 or LONGER, is 95.5  

The rest of the league averages......................6.   

 

A holding penalty, a delay of game, Offside...a big sack....they don't matter...they don't end drives like they do for other teams.

 

THAT stat is insane.

 

 

Also.  I want to address "the trade" AGAIN.

 

Let me set this up because some Bills fans kind of forget the circumstances of that offseason.  Going into that draft, the Pegulas had fired the HC, and had hired McDermott, but had not yet relieved Whaley of his duties and hired McBeane.  McDermott, a defensive minded coach, was on record as saying he wasn't going to draft a QB in 2017, with a lame duck GM, and without having the new GM evaluate QB's with him...so they'd all be on the same page.  The Bills were NOT going to draft a QB at 10 if they stayed in that spot.  

 

KC spent the weeks leading up to the draft trying to find trade partners in the top 10 and had been speaking to the Bills about moving up if conditions worked for both when the time came.  KC was helbent on Mahomes beforet he draft.

 

As it happend KC couldn't get a deal to move up at 5, and when it got to be pick 10, the Bills were willing to make the trade, and made it.

 

Lets assume for a minute that KC made the deal to go up to 5, they still draft Mahomes.  The Bills at 10, probably stay put and maybe they take Lattimore CB.  (the Saints took him one pick later at 11)  

 

2018 Rolls around, the Bills need a QB....they want Allen....maybe they have the ammo to get up to get him..or maybe not....but lets assume they make that work.

 

The Bills would still have Allen, and KC would still have Mahomes.  That TRADE was NOT a scenario of the Bills passing on Mahomes....they passed on all the QB's well before the draft started taht year. McD was NOT taking one in 2017.  It was NOT a trade of "if the Bills stay at 10, they take Mahomes, or we trade the pick away and KC takes Mahomes.  That is NOT what happened.

 

The Bills would likely be nearly the same squad....Lattimore instead of white...and probalby you don't draft Tre Edmunds.  

 

 

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's the most naturally gifted passer the NFL has ever seen and it's not really close.    

 

He also doesn't have any negative characteristics that could be his downfall.

 

If he stays healthy the top QB spot is his to lose for the next 10 years.

 

The greatest 'passer' in NFL history, to me, is Marino.  Deadly at every range, lightning release, and almost never took a sack in the age of the 7-step drop.   Mahomes is up there, though.