Moscow Marge + Lauren Bobo = the face of Putin and the QOP

[SoTier]

On 2/9/2021 at 10:11 AM, Tenhigh said:

Guess there isn't much more to talk about here. Thanks for explaining your position.  

 

"It has been said that for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing." -- Rev Charles F. Akred, 1916

 

That pretty much describes the GOP.   Trump attempted a coup d'etat and yet the vast majority of Republicans, both officials and rank-and-file still support him.    They obviously put their political futures or their loyalty to Donald Trump ahead of their country. 

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

"It has been said that for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing." -- Rev Charles F. Akred, 1916

 

That pretty much describes the GOP.   Trump attempted a coup d'etat and yet the vast majority of Republicans, both officials and rank-and-file still support him.    They obviously put their political futures or their loyalty to Donald Trump ahead of their country. 

Not really a coup, more like a bully d'etat.  But you are right that there are too many reps that support him still, though.  What the party really needs is a political outsider with a sense of decency and a little moral high ground.   

[SoTier]

23 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Not really a coup, more like a bully d'etat.  But you are right that there are too many reps that support him still, though.  What the party really needs is a political outsider with a sense of decency and a little moral high ground.   

 

Why would a "political outsider with a sense of decency and a little moral high ground" be attracted to the current GOP?   Some 70% of Republicans still support Trump who is the epitome of a leader lacking all sense of decency without any kind of moral compass, but Trump isn't an anomaly among Republican politicians;  various forms of bigotry seems to be a common denominator among many officials on all levels. 

 

I think that any political outsider would be more likely try to start a right of center third party without the tolerance for bigotry and nastiness that have become the hallmark of the current GOP and a large proportion of its base.   It's appeal would be to the traditional Republicans and anti-Trumpists.

 

FTR, I don't think that "political outsiders" of any stripe are going to be particularly popular in national politics for the foreseeable future because of Trump.  

[Bob in Mich]

A coup implies overthrowing the existing government.  In this case we had a president trying to stay in power so the only requirement for the mob was to prevent the transition.  So, not really a coup attempt but it is obvious that there was an attempt at the Capitol to interrupt the transition process.

 

The racism talk gets a lot of mileage and certainly some Trump support flows in through this door.  I think the majority of the support though comes from Republicans that simply came to really enjoy winning on their personal pet issues - immigration, abortion, taxes, Supreme Court, etc, after the Obama years.  The Trump administration gave them a win streak and quite a few of them became a bit drunk on the power.  They don’t necessarily like Trump but he gives them the best chance at winning

[oldmanfan]

21 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

A coup implies overthrowing the existing government.  In this case we had a president trying to stay in power so the only requirement for the mob was to prevent the transition.  So, not really a coup attempt but it is obvious that there was an attempt at the Capitol to interrupt the transition process.

 

The racism talk gets a lot of mileage and certainly some Trump support flows in through this door.  I think the majority of the support though comes from Republicans that simply came to really enjoy winning on their personal pet issues - immigration, abortion, taxes, Supreme Court, etc, after the Obama years.  The Trump administration gave them a win streak and quite a few of them became a bit drunk on the power.  They don’t necessarily like Trump but he gives them the best chance at winning

I disagree with your last sentence.  He gives them the worst chance of winning.  He just lost the Presidency, and the Republicans lost control of both the House and Senate during his presidency (well, the Senate shortly after because of the Georgia special runoff, which occurred under his tenure). 

 

His "base" may love him, but traditional Republicans are starting to change registration to Independent, if he runs again he will lose the suburban voters once again, and as with the last election it will drive higher Democrat turnout.

 

Why Republicans have this slavish obsession with this guy is a mystery.  You can get things like immigration and tax policies, Supreme Court, etc.  with an actual conservative Republican candidate instead of a failed,  not really republican, not really conservative candidate.  If you keep Trump, you lose the presidency again, and if he gets more candidates like Greene to run for Congress, you'll widen the Democratic majority in both the House and Senate.  When the Tea Party came to the forefront, they got people like Murdoch in Indiana and Akin in Missouri put up as Senate candidates, and they got killed because rational people realized there was no way they could vote for such people.  You'll get the same thing if a preponderance of Q Anon types get put up in 2022.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

3 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

A coup implies overthrowing the existing government.  In this case we had a president trying to stay in power so the only requirement for the mob was to prevent the transition.  So, not really a coup attempt but it is obvious that there was an attempt at the Capitol to interrupt the transition process.

 

The racism talk gets a lot of mileage and certainly some Trump support flows in through this door.  I think the majority of the support though comes from Republicans that simply came to really enjoy winning on their personal pet issues - immigration, abortion, taxes, Supreme Court, etc, after the Obama years.  The Trump administration gave them a win streak and quite a few of them became a bit drunk on the power.  They don’t necessarily like Trump but he gives them the best chance at winning

"Personal pet issues" like some of the major issues of our time?     

 

I think the people that stormed the Capitol should be dealt with harshly, imprisoned where appropriate and not given a slap on the wrist with this new fangled catch and release dealio thats all the rage. 

 

I think that the failure to treat rioters and looters over the past year in non-Capitol siege events directly contributed to emboldening some fringe crazies to attack the Capitol.  When anarchy is the order of the day, expect anarchy on any given day. 

 

I think criminal prosecution of anyone from Trump on down is 100% percent appropriate if the facts dictate charges be filed.  

 

I'm 100% opposed to litigating this matter in the court of public opinion having witnessed how easily said court was manipulated the last 5 years.  

 

I agree some element of the 70,000,000+ supporters of Trump are racist individuals.  That's a simple numbers game.  I think some percentage dislikes fat people, short people, bankers, red headed girls with freckles, victimize people, and otherwise engage in criminal activity.  That, too is a  numbers game.  

 

I think some elements of the 80,000,000+ supporters of Biden are racist individuals.  That's a simple numbers game.  I think some percentage dislikes fat people, short people, bankers, red headed girls with freckles, victimize people, and otherwise engage in criminal activity.  That, too is a  numbers game.  Some people won't recognize themselves as described here, but that's the fact, jack. 

 

I think the Russia investigation was an attempt at a coup based on your criteria noted above.  I think the relative success of dem leadership screaming that Trump's election was illegitimate and treasonous, morphing then to 'well we can't prove any of that but my God he didn't submit as we commanded' directly contributed to the politicization of the election results.  In fact, it was inevitable.  Why?  Because there is plenty to complain about.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob in Mich]

Impeaching and removing Trump would have led to a Pence administration. Hardly a coup, Lonnie

[Bob in Mich]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I disagree with your last sentence.  He gives them the worst chance of winning.  He just lost the Presidency, and the Republicans lost control of both the House and Senate during his presidency (well, the Senate shortly after because of the Georgia special runoff, which occurred under his tenure). 

 

His "base" may love him, but traditional Republicans are starting to change registration to Independent, if he runs again he will lose the suburban voters once again, and as with the last election it will drive higher Democrat turnout.

 

Why Republicans have this slavish obsession with this guy is a mystery.  You can get things like immigration and tax policies, Supreme Court, etc.  with an actual conservative Republican candidate instead of a failed,  not really republican, not really conservative candidate.  If you keep Trump, you lose the presidency again, and if he gets more candidates like Greene to run for Congress, you'll widen the Democratic majority in both the House and Senate.  When the Tea Party came to the forefront, they got people like Murdoch in Indiana and Akin in Missouri put up as Senate candidates, and they got killed because rational people realized there was no way they could vote for such people.  You'll get the same thing if a preponderance of Q Anon types get put up in 2022.  

Good points.  I hope you are right about Trump losing future elections. If the transition had failed via the Capitol mob actions, another 2020 election would have been unnecessary though.  The win streak would have gone on with another Trump term...until the war anyway 

 

Part of why Trump could be more successful in future elections than you predict he should be, is due to his ability to turn out the vote.  I realize he turned out opposition too, but convincing voters that they are being victimized has proven more successful than traditional policy campaigns. 74 million Trump votes even after 4 years of his antics is frightening in my opinion.

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Bob in Mich said:

A coup implies overthrowing the existing government.  In this case we had a president trying to stay in power so the only requirement for the mob was to prevent the transition.  So, not really a coup attempt but it is obvious that there was an attempt at the Capitol to interrupt the transition process.

 

The racism talk gets a lot of mileage and certainly some Trump support flows in through this door.  I think the majority of the support though comes from Republicans that simply came to really enjoy winning on their personal pet issues - immigration, abortion, taxes, Supreme Court, etc, after the Obama years.  The Trump administration gave them a win streak and quite a few of them became a bit drunk on the power.  They don’t necessarily like Trump but he gives them the best chance at winning

 

You are hiding behind semantics over what constitutes a coup just like Republican Congressmen hid behind procedural issues on the second Trump impeachment.  A coup is defined as a sudden, violent and illegal seizure of power from government.   That's exactly what Trump wanted to happen on January 6 when he sent that mob to attack the Capitol -- a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power.  It's no different than some two-bit strongman in some banana republic forcing the national legislature to vote him "president for life" with his personal guards holding guns to their heads except that Trump couldn't find enough sycophants within his administration to pull it off.

 

The GOP has had the welcome mat out for white supremacists since the 1960s when they welcomed arch-segregationists who had defected from the Democrats over civil rights.  Trump openly courted the support of white supremacists in both his presidential campaigns.  Feel free to lie to yourself about this if it makes you feel better.

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Bob in Mich said:

Impeaching and removing Trump would have led to a Pence administration. Hardly a coup, Lonnie

Impeachment is a political spectacle, nothing more, nothing less.  Perhaps there was a time when it meant more to the American people, but it's basically like watching the inner workings of a super secret collegiate fraternity mock trial where no real rules of decency and honor need apply, and there are no ramifications for making %$#@ up, lying, or cutting and pasting "evidence" to steer the outcome in a specific direction.  The fact that so many bought into that process after seeing Clinton skate, and Trump skate twice makes one wonder about the incredible capacity for people to be fooled.  In fact, it's really quite amazing that the dems had control of the house and senate, the proceedings as a whole, they arguably bypassed the US constitution and had a number of anti-Trump rhinos in their corner, the media feeding the frenzy that they still failed spectacularly.    

 

The Muller investigation wasn't an impeachment attempt, it was an effort to eviscerate Trump through lies, leaks and false innuendos.  It was a coordinated attack on a presidency, the intent and design to remove the president elected by the people.  I have no way of knowing what was coming for Pence had the dems been able to manufacture evidence that would unseat Trump--and they certainly tried, but something was coming one way or the other.  

 

 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

I think some elements of the 80,000,000+ supporters of Biden are racist individuals.  That's a simple numbers game.  I think some percentage dislikes fat people, short people, bankers, red headed girls with freckles, victimize people, and otherwise engage in criminal activity.  That, too is a  numbers game.  Some people won't recognize themselves as described here, but that's the fact, jack. 

 

3 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

You are hiding behind semantics over what constitutes a coup just like Republican Congressmen hid behind procedural issues on the second Trump impeachment.  A coup is defined as a sudden, violent and illegal seizure of power from government.   That's exactly what Trump wanted to happen on January 6 when he sent that mob to attack the Capitol -- a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power.  It's no different than some two-bit strongman in some banana republic forcing the national legislature to vote him "president for life" with his personal guards holding guns to their heads except that Trump couldn't find enough sycophants within his administration to pull it off.

 

The GOP has had the welcome mat out for white supremacists since the 1960s when they welcomed arch-segregationists who had defected from the Democrats over civil rights.  Trump openly courted the support of white supremacists in both his presidential campaigns.  Feel free to lie to yourself about this if it makes you feel better.

 

 

@Bob in Mich in my initial post, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  Brother So is a zealot, a fighter in the great war, with lots to say about the bigotry dating all the way back to 1960.  He's got, by extension, @oldmanfan in the 'lie to himself' category as he's acknowledged supporting certain conservative principles and pines for the R party of old.  Brother So has absolved our current president---one who proudly ran with the old white bigoted democrats, who has spoken quite loudly in racially provocative  terms, supported legislation that targeted and destroyed communities and people of color, even bragged about it.  Coincidentally, he treated women as his own personal playground for decades before gettin' woked up---just in time--- for Brother So and his crowd to look the other way in pursuit/reward of their loyalty.  

[Bob in Mich]

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

You are hiding behind semantics over what constitutes a coup just like Republican Congressmen hid behind procedural issues on the second Trump impeachment.  A coup is defined as a sudden, violent and illegal seizure of power from government.   That's exactly what Trump wanted to happen on January 6 when he sent that mob to attack the Capitol -- a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power.  It's no different than some two-bit strongman in some banana republic forcing the national legislature to vote him "president for life" with his personal guards holding guns to their heads except that Trump couldn't find enough sycophants within his administration to pull it off.

 

The GOP has had the welcome mat out for white supremacists since the 1960s when they welcomed arch-segregationists who had defected from the Democrats over civil rights.  Trump openly courted the support of white supremacists in both his presidential campaigns.  Feel free to lie to yourself about this if it makes you feel better.

 

 

 

Well if you want to call it a coup then, fine. I stand corrected but I don’t think there is much disagreement between us as to what the mob wanted and why

 

As to the other point, is it that Trump support is primarily due to racists, my experience is different I guess. I know a lot of very good non racist people that support him because of perceived tax cuts or abortion prevention.  Have Republicans been willing to accept votes from racists?  Yes but as I said, much of his support is from other sources

[716er]

Cult-like, no?

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

@Bob in Mich in my initial post, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  Brother So is a zealot, a fighter in the great war, with lots to say about the bigotry dating all the way back to 1960.  He's got, by extension, @oldmanfan in the 'lie to himself' category as he's acknowledged supporting certain conservative principles and pines for the R party of old.  Brother So has absolved our current president---one who proudly ran with the old white bigoted democrats, who has spoken quite loudly in racially provocative  terms, supported legislation that targeted and destroyed communities and people of color, even bragged about it.  Coincidentally, he treated women as his own personal playground for decades before gettin' woked up---just in time--- for Brother So and his crowd to look the other way in pursuit/reward of their loyalty.  

Don’t call me a liar.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Don’t call me a liar.

 

 

I didn't call you a liar.  I think you have some limitations when it comes to your view of the world, science and COVID, but I've complimented you multiple times for your approach here.  I think you're a good poster trying to make his way through all of this madness.  

 

I was referencing you with respect to So Tier's comments about people who 'lie to themselves', the R party since 1960, and your prior commentary that you're an independent with some conservative principles.  The comment was about the other poster, and in reading what I wrote that seems clear to me.  Here's what he wrote:

 

The GOP has had the welcome mat out for white supremacists since the 1960s when they welcomed arch-segregationists who had defected from the Democrats over civil rights.  Trump openly courted the support of white supremacists in both his presidential campaigns.  Feel free to lie to yourself about this if it makes you feel better.

 

Apologies if I offended you. 

 

That said, you seem to be awfully sensitive for a guy ripping off one liners about the slavish tendencies of those who you disagree with politically.  

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

 

I didn't call you a liar.  I think you have some limitations when it comes to your view of the world, science and COVID, but I've complimented you multiple times for your approach here.  I think you're a good poster trying to make his way through all of this madness.  

 

I was referencing you with respect to So Tier's comments about people who 'lie to themselves', the R party since 1960, and your prior commentary that you're an independent with some conservative principles.  The comment was about the other poster, and in reading what I wrote that seems clear to me.  Here's what he wrote:

 

The GOP has had the welcome mat out for white supremacists since the 1960s when they welcomed arch-segregationists who had defected from the Democrats over civil rights.  Trump openly courted the support of white supremacists in both his presidential campaigns.  Feel free to lie to yourself about this if it makes you feel better.

 

Apologies if I offended you. 

 

That said, you seem to be awfully sensitive for a guy ripping off one liners about the slavish tendencies of those who you disagree with politically.  

 No problem.  I admit to being sensitive on that issue; it’s something I cannot stand.

[SoTier]

17 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

@Bob in Mich in my initial post, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  Brother So is a zealot, a fighter in the great war, with lots to say about the bigotry dating all the way back to 1960.  He's got, by extension, @oldmanfan in the 'lie to himself' category as he's acknowledged supporting certain conservative principles and pines for the R party of old.  Brother So has absolved our current president---one who proudly ran with the old white bigoted democrats, who has spoken quite loudly in racially provocative  terms, supported legislation that targeted and destroyed communities and people of color, even bragged about it.  Coincidentally, he treated women as his own personal playground for decades before gettin' woked up---just in time--- for Brother So and his crowd to look the other way in pursuit/reward of their loyalty.  

 

Yawn.   Like a typical rightie, you use irrelevant whataboutism to deflect and/or justify whatever indefensible argument you try to make.  As only you can do, you use 50 words to say what you could in 5 and often wander into sidebars that have nothing to do with your argument or anything much at all -- such as bringing @oldmanfan into your response -- which frequently further obscures what you're attempting to say.  Whatever.

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Yawn.   Like a typical rightie, you use irrelevant whataboutism to deflect and/or justify whatever indefensible argument you try to make.  As only you can do, you use 50 words to say what you could in 5 and often wander into sidebars that have nothing to do with your argument or anything much at all -- such as bringing @oldmanfan into your response -- which frequently further obscures what you're attempting to say.  Whatever.

 

 

I’m a centrist on many issues, libertarian on many issues, liberal on a few.   I wouldn’t expect you to understand—I see things as much more complex than you do with your 1960/R/white supremacy declaration.   I suppose it would be easier to adopt a one size fits all model, but that’s incredibly limiting and stunts your intellectual growth.  
 

I included a reference to oldmanfan in my note to Bob because it seemed clear to me that given his statements about supporting some conservative principles, it pointed out the challenge to your way of thinking.  You made the declaration about the R party, you referenced 1960 as the starting point for its foray into extremism, and it seemed obvious that he would go on your personal naughty list.  That’s the challenge with taking the extreme, rigid views you espouse.  As I told him directly, I see him as a reasonable enough fellow who is a good poster.  I try to understand where folks are coming from even when I disagree.  But, maybe you worked through some of the things you would disagree with him on.  
 

As for the old whataboutism play, if that’s your safe space, I understand.   It’s perfectly understandable when you take an extreme position, are confronted with facts that are irrefutable that you cross your arms, stomp your feet and say “I don’t want to talk about that”.  It’s hard, but trust me that with a willingness to confront your own support of misogyny, bigotry and the like, growth surely follows.  
 

Have a nice day. 
 

 

[Kemp]

On 2/25/2021 at 7:19 AM, SoTier said:

 

"It has been said that for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing." -- Rev Charles F. Akred, 1916

 

That pretty much describes the GOP.   Trump attempted a coup d'etat and yet the vast majority of Republicans, both officials and rank-and-file still support him.    They obviously put their political futures or their loyalty to Donald Trump ahead of their country. 

 

Those who refuse to call Trump out for trying to overthrow the government are not good men.

 

[BillStime]

She’s an idiot