I hope Star and Ford have both been powerlifting

[transplantbillsfan]

I think Beane and McDermott are going to view both of these guys as sort of "FA Additions" this offseason.  Beane drafted Ford and I'm sure that Ford will have a job to lose in the starting OL lineup.  And we all saw what we were missing without Star, who I think we underrated with the team when we had him.

 

I hope both guys come back hungry and motivated.  Obviously the fact that Star sat the season out makes you wonder that a little more with him.

[machine gun kelly]

On 1/27/2021 at 10:38 AM, JohnNord said:

Remember what McDermott about needing to be physical and the desire to run the ball better.  I think could have implications toward Ford being part of the plan. 

 

It’s possible that he could make John Feliciano expendable - as much as they love him, I don’t know if they’ll break the bank to keep him.   While he has been decent, it’s clear the middle of the line has been an issue this season.

 

As far as Star, I think they see a role for him on the roster as a rotational player.  I think they will want to find another option specifically at 1 Tech DT to keep Oliver at 3 Tech.  
 

 

I think they have to wait 1 more year before the cap hit becomes reasonable 

John, I like you’re points.  Regarding Star, I saw a precipitous loss of performance from Oliver and Edmunds when he was out as well as a loss of run defense.  He’s one of those unsung heroes kind of guys.  With Ford, if he is a solid Guard, that makes it that much easier to shed Morse’s contract and keep Mongo at a lesser price moving him to Center.

[Saxum]

10 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

Star and Ford need to be spending the Winter sumo wrestling each other.

 

Well at least there is a precident:

 

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

I hear ya on those thoughts and do not disagree. I mused in another thread that the running game got short shrift, in that Daboll gave it little attention. I do suspect that the refrigerator sized guard (Spain) was missed to some degree, that, on top of Fords injury didn’t help the run game issues. 

 

The refrigerator sized guard was malfunctioning since he got new contract and when he got to Tennessee he was mysteriously injured when he was not when he got on plane.

[US Egg]

My 38 y.o. kid cranks up triple sets of 250. Hope most non skilled types on the team can do that.....or they be in big trouble.

 

[John from Riverside]

On 1/27/2021 at 8:25 AM, 947 said:

I think it's more likely that Feliciano comes back is the starting Center. Morse could be a cap casualty, he has been no better than league average overall & is paid like a Pro Bowler. Feliciano is a better OC than OG in my mind.

I think Ford and Star will help......but much like Beane overkilled it on WR this past year I dont want to count on it and not try other ways to improve

[Thurman#1]

On 1/28/2021 at 12:12 AM, Bangarang said:

I doubt either of those guys moves the needle much of at all. 

 

 

I doubt you're correct there. IMO losing Lotulelei moved the needle a lot, downwards. And Ford is young, and he's played 22 and maybe 1/3 games, without much of an offseason before that second year.

 

But we'll see.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Don Otreply]

9 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Well at least there is a precident:

 

 

The refrigerator sized guard was malfunctioning since he got new contract and when he got to Tennessee he was mysteriously injured when he was not when he got on plane.

That is true, it is also true he was a force during the 19/20 seasons run game, as well didn’t allow a sack that season. We miss that performance level on the O line, he and Ford when healthy made a difference, as compared to the 20/21 season. Beane needs to find a guy to replicate that for next year, just my thoughts.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good explanation of why 1T gets double teams and 3T does not...as we see a number of folks like to talk of DL without understanding the difference.

 

That said, I'm not sure I can entirely agree that 1T plugger was not the problem with this defense....perhaps you mean not the only problem? or not the major problem?

 

Early on it seemed to me they were trying to use Harrison Phillips in his expected role as the emerging 1TDT; I don't remember who they were rotating him with.  But they weren't getting it done.  The Rams ran over us, and we were struggling to get any QB pressure.

 

That led to the Great Kansas City Experiment of "healthy" scratch for Harry and Trent Murphy in favor of Zimmer and Bryan Cox Jr...but as I recall the experiment ran deeper, they were really swapping rotations around trying to find a couple that worked.  And of course, KC just humiliated us in the run game for 245 yds, leading to the Conf Championship epitaph "at least they only ran over us for 114"

 

It seems to me that we were kind of in the mode "can anyone play 1TDT?" much of the year.  It seems like they finally got it done by platooning extensively - everybody played a little 1TDT, everybody played a little 3TDT.  At least I recall being surprised to see Harry lined up at 3T a few times, and of course Oliver played 1T

 

I don't know if you caught in his presser, Beane basically acknowledged Phillips was not really recovered enough from his ACL to play well at the beginning of the season, and "didn't want to" be shut down but they thought it was best to try to have him effective by the season's end (then they barely played him against IND)

 

At times in the season's last games there were plays where he blew up 2 guys and made a tackle.  Perhaps a full offseason of training will bring us the guy they thought they drafted.

 

 

 

The point of the 1 tech in this defense is supposed to be to set up the instinctive MLB to be able to make plays in run defense.

 

Doesn't even make sense with a guy like Edmunds behind it.

 

I think they roll with this setup for another year and eventually have to change out the MLB or change the positioning up front.

 

Wouldn't hurt this defense OR offense to be able to be multiple like recent champs NE and KC have been able to be.

 

The 1 tech's mostly did their job this season once the rotation was set in the second half..........Vernon Butler basically cloned the performance of Star Lotulelei(which wasn't hard) and Phillips was an improvement over what they had in the WC game in Houston last year(Liuget) so IMO the 1 tech position overall was improved.      

 

As I said the regression statistically with the defense was mainly the MUCH better schedule and the significant loss of pass rush.

[ndirish1978]

On 1/27/2021 at 12:06 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

You sure about that? Bloated contract for below average player and a healthy scratch after clearing the concussion protocol.

They can bring back Feliciano on the cheap, draft the center of the future, and clear cap space for 2022 and 2023.

 

I would encourage you to watch a few Cover 1 videos about Morse. Cheers!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

The point of the 1 tech in this defense is supposed to be to set up the instinctive MLB to be able to make plays in run defense.

 

Doesn't even make sense with a guy like Edmunds behind it.

 

I think they roll with this setup for another year and eventually have to change out the MLB or change the positioning up front.

 

Wouldn't hurt this defense OR offense to be able to be multiple like recent champs NE and KC have been able to be.

 

The 1 tech's mostly did their job this season once the rotation was set in the second half..........Vernon Butler basically cloned the performance of Star Lotulelei(which wasn't hard) and Phillips was an improvement over what they had in the WC game in Houston last year(Liuget) so IMO the 1 tech position overall was improved.      

 

As I said the regression statistically with the defense was mainly the MUCH better schedule and the significant loss of pass rush.

 

I take your point that to advance to the next level, we need more ability to be multiple on D.

 

It's apparent that you and McDermott and Frazier just disagree fundamentally on Edmunds capabilities.  They think he's their MLB of the future.  You disagree.  He keeps going to the pro-bowl for some reason.   I'm skeptical of the pro-bowl as a "popularity contest" but there's that. 🤷‍♂️

 

Edmunds and especially Milano in pass coverage, seem to me to have made their living on "zone eyes".  That ability has served them well much of the season.   Mahomes used that ability to bite them hard, to manipulate them all over the field and move them wherever he wanted.  Mahomes is a master, but QB and OCs all over the league will surely be looking at that film and trying to take a lesson.  Not sure how we counter.  When you make your living "taking the cheese" how do you abstain?

 

Even when they had set 1st and 2nd rotations the second half of the season, I thought we were still playing 1TDT by committee a significant amount, to the detriment of Ed Oliver's abilities..  I gave up trying to go through the game film play by play to see who was playing where when - even on all-22 I find it challenging - but for sure I saw Oliver playing 1TDT and Harrison Phillips at 3T (!!) late in the season. 

 

Three questions for ya:

1) What did you see from Q Jefferson?  I couldn't see him.  He had falling snap-counts through the season but still played 40-ish% of the snaps the back half of the season.  Whatever he contributed, it doesn't seem to be QB hits or TFL, and I think he was mostly playing 3TDT.  As the guy with the 8th highest cap hit this season but little dead cap, he seems an obvious target for "see ya later"

 

2) Milano.  Beane seemed to use the Jordan Phillips "good luck in your future endeavors" code in his presser.  Yet the D just seems to work much better (outside last Sunday) when he plays.  What are your thoughts on Milano?

 

3) John Brown.  You were pretty staunch mid-season that our offense doesn't work nearly as well when he's not out there.  What are your thoughts now?

[soflabillsfan1]

Does anyone know what Star looks like these days?  I'm a little afraid he might be fat as ***** without playing this year.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, soflabillsfan1 said:

Does anyone know what Star looks like these days?  I'm a little afraid he might be fat as ***** without playing this year.

My concern as well

[Rebel101]

On 1/27/2021 at 10:09 AM, TheBeaneBandit said:

Having both these players make a difference would be a great start to making a weakness a strength. With Ford, he has come off an offseason surgery both his years so I really hope he can come in a new man and vindicate his draft status.

Agreed. Defense missed star this year. He’s not a stat guy but he constantly takes up 2 blockers and is decent in run support. Ford on the other hand needs to do better. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Rebel101

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I take your point that to advance to the next level, we need more ability to be multiple on D.

 

It's apparent that you and McDermott and Frazier just disagree fundamentally on Edmunds capabilities.  They think he's their MLB of the future.  You disagree.  He keeps going to the pro-bowl for some reason.   I'm skeptical of the pro-bowl as a "popularity contest" but there's that. 🤷‍♂️

 

Edmunds and especially Milano in pass coverage, seem to me to have made their living on "zone eyes".  That ability has served them well much of the season.   Mahomes used that ability to bite them hard, to manipulate them all over the field and move them wherever he wanted.  Mahomes is a master, but QB and OCs all over the league will surely be looking at that film and trying to take a lesson.  Not sure how we counter.  When you make your living "taking the cheese" how do you abstain?

 

Even when they had set 1st and 2nd rotations the second half of the season, I thought we were still playing 1TDT by committee a significant amount, to the detriment of Ed Oliver's abilities..  I gave up trying to go through the game film play by play to see who was playing where when - even on all-22 I find it challenging - but for sure I saw Oliver playing 1TDT and Harrison Phillips at 3T (!!) late in the season. 

 

Three questions for ya:

1) What did you see from Q Jefferson?  I couldn't see him.  He had falling snap-counts through the season but still played 40-ish% of the snaps the back half of the season.  Whatever he contributed, it doesn't seem to be QB hits or TFL, and I think he was mostly playing 3TDT.  As the guy with the 8th highest cap hit this season but little dead cap, he seems an obvious target for "see ya later"

 

2) Milano.  Beane seemed to use the Jordan Phillips "good luck in your future endeavors" code in his presser.  Yet the D just seems to work much better (outside last Sunday) when he plays.  What are your thoughts on Milano?

 

3) John Brown.  You were pretty staunch mid-season that our offense doesn't work nearly as well when he's not out there.  What are your thoughts now?

 

 

1) Jefferson was a curious signing because he really isn't a good DE or DT.   I assumed they thought he was an ascending player but he was underwhelming.   I would assume that they cut him? 

 

2) I think they can move on from Milano.   He's a very good weak side LB but they have Edmunds or Klein or possibly Dodson all who could move there and be good.  

 

3) I don't think Brown ever got healthy.    I see them moving on from Brown for cap reasons but I don't think they should just hand the job to Davis.   If they get to pick 30 and the best player on the board is a potential stud WR that shouldn't be passed on to address a perceived need in the moment.

[eball]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1) Jefferson was a curious signing because he really isn't a good DE or DT.   I assumed they thought he was an ascending player but he was underwhelming.   I would assume that they cut him? 

 

2) I think they can move on from Milano.   He's a very good weak side LB but they have Edmunds or Klein or possibly Dodson all who could move there and be good.  

 

3) I don't think Brown ever got healthy.    I see them moving on from Brown for cap reasons but I don't think they should just hand the job to Davis.   If they get to pick 30 and the best player on the board is a potential stud WR that shouldn't be passed on to address a perceived need in the moment.

 

The great thing about the DL signings is that they could all be interpreted as one-year “prove it” deals that are relatively painless to move on from.

 

I have come around to your thinking on Edmunds.  I think he has incredible potential as an edge guy, either rushing the passer or dropping into coverage, but he doesn’t have the “wow” factor as a MLB.  I think they’re wasting his ability.

 

Davis is not Brown’s replacement, I agree.  Different skill sets.  This is another deep WR draft; go get another one.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by eball

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) Jefferson was a curious signing because he really isn't a good DE or DT.   I assumed they thought he was an ascending player but he was underwhelming.   I would assume that they cut him? 

 

2) I think they can move on from Milano.   He's a very good weak side LB but they have Edmunds or Klein or possibly Dodson all who could move there and be good.  

 

3) I don't think Brown ever got healthy.    I see them moving on from Brown for cap reasons but I don't think they should just hand the job to Davis.   If they get to pick 30 and the best player on the board is a potential stud WR that shouldn't be passed on to address a perceived need in the moment.

The one caveat about Brown is that he basically had a leg injury for most of the season, and it clearly hampered him. Will he fully recover? If so, I'd keep him.  I still remember people here griping about Robert Woods in 2016, and then after the season we find out that he played at least half of it with a torn groin. We said "Sayonara," and whaddaya know -- it healed just fine, and he's a borderline elite player. People overreact to injuries; they're part of the deal in the NFL. To be sure, some players are actually injury prone for various reasons. But in his seven seasons, Brown has played at least 15 games in 5 of them (and 9 and 10 in the other 2). In the  NFL, that qualifies as "generally healthy and not injury prone." I'd definitely keep him for camp and see how he's doing, but if they're dead set on dumping him, Beane isn't a wait-for-June-1 kind of GM.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

1) Jefferson was a curious signing because he really isn't a good DE or DT.   I assumed they thought he was an ascending player but he was underwhelming.   I would assume that they cut him? 

 

That's basically where I was going.  I know you see different things than I do, so if I saw nothing and you saw underwhelming, maybe there's nothing to see.

He is a younger guy, and if they felt he developed during the season maybe they hang onto him, but he seems like a candidate for "cap casualty" with $6.5M savings and $1.5M dead

 

33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

2) I think they can move on from Milano.   He's a very good weak side LB but they have Edmunds or Klein or possibly Dodson all who could move there and be good.  

 

As we've discussed before - you and the Bills Brain Trust see Edmunds very differently and unless they have a "scheme change revelation" in those meetings that Beane alluded to, I don't see him moving.

 

Klein worked - Kind of - but they had to rework the coverage responsibilities and we'd need a better Dime guy 'cuz we'd be playing it more.  And if we want to get faster, losing Milano for Klein is heading the wrong way.

 

Not sure what you saw in Dodson that inclines you towards this Milano substitute notion.

 

We may have no choice, but I see it as leaving more holes.

 

33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

3) I don't think Brown ever got healthy.    I see them moving on from Brown for cap reasons but I don't think they should just hand the job to Davis.   If they get to pick 30 and the best player on the board is a potential stud WR that shouldn't be passed on to address a perceived need in the moment.

 

It may well be that Brown never got healthy.  My problem with Brown is that even healthy, I think press man can take him away.  Not sure press man can't take Davis away, and he's slower.  Agree that if Brown is a cap casualty that leaves a gap.