I hope Star and Ford have both been powerlifting

[fasteddie]

14 hours ago, gobills404 said:

Morse is better than Feliciano and it isn't close. He's one of the best pass blocking centers in football and was great in 2019 as a puller but for some reason they stopped using him like that in the run game.

Most of the passing plays this year found Morse getting pushed back into the pocket, with the KC game his worst effort. On running plays, he could never make the block at the point of attack, allowing penetration which broke up most running plays. 

When he was hurt, Mongo showed much more promise at center. 

[Coach Tuesday]

Cody Ford is a horrible football player. Injuries aside, I see very little instinct, technique or commitment to getting better.  Would love him to prove me wrong but I’m very skeptical he will.

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Cody Ford is a horrible football player. Injuries aside, I see very little instinct, technique or commitment to getting better.  Would love him to prove me wrong but I’m very skeptical he will.

 

Amazes me they had a 1st round grade on him and were giddy trading up to 38th in 2019 to select a tweener OL.  They significantly overvalued him. 

 

Cue the hindsight is 20/20 types, but when he couldn't win the RT job in camp and then rotated with a journeyman I knew it wasn't good. He's finished both his seasons on IR, which is also cause for concern.  But I agree, he seems weak at the point of attack.  Maybe that changes and he recovers, but right now he's a spare OL part.  

 

 

[Dukestreetking]

23 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The 1T position between the guard and center forces a double team.

 

Whomever the Bills used at 1T got the double team this season.......Phillips, Butler, Oliver, Zimmer....

 

The 3T lines up on the outside shoulder of the opposite side guard.

 

The positioning of the 3T makes it very difficult to double team that player...........counterproductive in most cases.

 

Ed Oliver simply needs to work on his game more this offseason........and the Bills need to get some better pass rushers on the rest of the DL.

 

1T plugger was not the problem with this defense.

 

 

This is a fair argument, and I'm on record as saying we underestimated Star's loss.

 

Would love to see comparative tape. Do you know of any out there?

 

I "think" the difference I saw this year: yes, the 1T eating the DTeams, but getting turned, at least enough times for me notice ...and (whichever) gap that created wasn't getting filled quickly enough.

 

W Star, no push (obviously) but he'd rarely get tuned. That's my perception, at least.

22 hours ago, thurst44 said:

Star always gets this tude from a large part of the fanbase and I'm downright sick of it. When he was brought in as a FA in 2018, one of the big reasons given was b/c QBs were stepping up into the lack of pressure up the middle for short passes and tight ends were feasting. That was one of the biggest rationales I heard for his contract: he would stop tight ends. In 2017, we gave up the 6th most yards to tight ends. In 2020, the most. In Star's two years, we gave up the fewest yards to tight ends. Yet so few people seem to be putting two-and-two together that maybe, just maybe, Star's not the garbage player we've judged him as. 

 

Entire comment is a good think through. This is pretty much where I am currently. But, again, I'd have to see 19 v 20 comps tape.

[Don Otreply]

21 hours ago, BigPappy said:

All I know is that the run game on both sides of the ball regressed without both of these men. Is that a coincidence? Time will tell if they are both back next year. That said, as someone else pointed out, Carolina's run defense regressed when they lost Star when they thought he was replaceable. 

2019s run blocking was better by far, the difference on the O line was and is no Spain, and an injured and then IRd Ford, with them gone/out the run game on offense has been woeful, and has been equally less good on the D side with Star’s absence, as well as Shaq and Jordan being gone, your point is spot on, some fans here don’t see the obvious that is starring at them. 

[frostbitmic]

Star and Ford need to be spending the Winter sumo wrestling each other.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Dukestreetking said:

This is a fair argument, and I'm on record as saying we underestimated Star's loss.

 

Would love to see comparative tape. Do you know of any out there?

 

I "think" the difference I saw this year: yes, the 1T eating the DTeams, but getting turned, at least enough times for me notice ...and (whichever) gap that created wasn't getting filled quickly enough.

 

W Star, no push (obviously) but he'd rarely get tuned. That's my perception, at least.

 

Entire comment is a good think through. This is pretty much where I am currently. But, again, I'd have to see 19 v 20 comps tape.

 

 

There really isn't any footage out there to support the notion that Lotulelei did a better job helping the defense defend the run.

 

He was ineffective...........he didn't even always draw the double because a key to causing the double from the 1T(as opposed to the nose) is threatening the gap between the center and guard........which he wasn't athletic enough to do.

 

The defense was going to see a statistical regression this season...........for the first time they had a legitimately difficult schedule........the linebacking corps was banged up.........there were a ton of new faces in that front 7 and they lost a bunch of sacks in Phillips, Alexander and Shaq.

 

Ed Oliver had a down year.........one of the reasons wasn't the loss of Lotulelei though.......Phillips and Butler comparably replaced Star's 2019 1T reps.........it was the lack of a 350# gap shooter alternating with him at 3T.    The combination of Oliver and a motivated Phillips was a long days work for a guard.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 1/27/2021 at 12:06 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

You sure about that? Bloated contract for below average player and a healthy scratch after clearing the concussion protocol.

They can bring back Feliciano on the cheap, draft the center of the future, and clear cap space for 2022 and 2023.

Morse is a key reason the pass pro is good. 
 

albeit also a reason the inside run is not good. 

4 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

Star and Ford need to be spending the Winter sumo wrestling each other.

That’s a whole lotta beard flying around 

[DCbillsfan]

8 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Amazes me they had a 1st round grade on him and were giddy trading up to 38th in 2019 to select a tweener OL.  They significantly overvalued him. 

 

Cue the hindsight is 20/20 types, but when he couldn't win the RT job in camp and then rotated with a journeyman I knew it wasn't good. He's finished both his seasons on IR, which is also cause for concern.  But I agree, he seems weak at the point of attack.  Maybe that changes and he recovers, but right now he's a spare OL part.  

 

 

As fans, we never know what issues a player may be going through off the field, but as a fan I must admit, Ford's play does not inspire me.

 

At RT, he's too slow footed to move laterally with a DE and gets beat regularly.

At Guard, he doesn't possess the necessary strength to anchor or push his man back.

 

IIRC Ford was described as a mauler with a nasty streak who plays to the echo of the whistle.  I haven't seen any of that plus he can't stay healthy.  2021 is a big year for Ford.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/27/2021 at 9:20 AM, Doc said:

Yes Star was a loss.  As for Ford, I'm not ready to write-him-off just yet.  I just hope they put him at one guard spot and that's it.

 

I agree, he needs to focus in on the details of the blocking and blocking technique at one spot.

 

My concern for Ford is that he spent his rookie year injured, and then in addition to the groin, knee etc injuries he showed up with on injury report, he was observed wearing a brace on one arm or shoulder and to be struggling blocking to that side.  I'm not "up" on the niceties of what injuries get reported or not.  Beane said of Ford "he's played more games injured than he has healthy". 

 

Maybe it's just bad luck, and he'll address it and heal up and come back healthy and stay healthy.  Or maybe his body just got too beat up in college and he can't handle it any more.

 

I don't think he needs to powerlift per se though, I think he needs to train differently to get strong but avoid injury.

 

5 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

2019s run blocking was better by far, the difference on the O line was and is no Spain, and an injured and then IRd Ford, with them gone/out the run game on offense has been woeful, and has been equally less good on the D side with Star’s absence, as well as Shaq and Jordan being gone, your point is spot on, some fans here don’t see the obvious that is starring at them. 

 

 I agree our run blocking was better in 2019 but I'm not sure losing Spain was the root cause. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, fasteddie said:

Most of the passing plays this year found Morse getting pushed back into the pocket, with the KC game his worst effort. On running plays, he could never make the block at the point of attack, allowing penetration which broke up most running plays. 

When he was hurt, Mongo showed much more promise at center. 

 

Mongo is a better run blocker, but he's not as good a technician on pass plays.

 

I don't think it's true "most of the passing plays found Morse getting pushed back"....there were a number, but of course we can find passing plays with Feliciano or Williams getting beaten like drums.  Morse did struggle at times... I think working between Brian Winters and either an injured Cody Ford or sometimes Boettger (initially) had a lot to do with it. 

 

But no, there were plenty of pass plays where Josh Allen had time to smoke a cigarette and survey his domain.

 

On running plays as Beane alluded, we are not a power run team and Morse will never be that guy who can help you run up the gut with power.  But Morse is actually a skilled run blocker, and on our zone run plays he was usually not the problem.

 

On 1/27/2021 at 9:38 AM, JohnNord said:

As far as Star, I think they see a role for him on the roster as a rotational player.  I think they will want to find another option specifically at 1 Tech DT to keep Oliver at 3 Tech.

 

Before injury, it was Harrison Phillips who was rotating with Star at 1TDT.  He was supposed to be the 1TDT of the future, or at least one of them.

[Don Otreply]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree, he needs to focus in on the details of the blocking and blocking technique at one spot.

 

My concern for Ford is that he spent his rookie year injured, and then in addition to the groin, knee etc injuries he showed up with on injury report, he was observed wearing a brace on one arm or shoulder and to be struggling blocking to that side.  I'm not "up" on the niceties of what injuries get reported or not.  Beane said of Ford "he's played more games injured than he has healthy". 

 

Maybe it's just bad luck, and he'll address it and heal up and come back healthy and stay healthy.  Or maybe his body just got too beat up in college and he can't handle it any more.

 

I don't think he needs to powerlift per se though, I think he needs to train differently to get strong but avoid injury.

 

 

 I agree our run blocking was better in 2019 but I'm not sure losing Spain was the root cause. 

Not so much the root cause but certainly part of the difference, both he and Ford have a bit of a mean streak and as a combination it is missed in our current run game, jmo. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/27/2021 at 10:54 AM, Ethan in Portland said:

Cut Morse. Bring back Feliciano to play center in 2021. Draft a true center to develop. Play Ford at RG.

 

If you listen to Beane, he won't tell you everything but he does mean what he says, and it provides clues to his thinking and priorities.

 

Beane said so much positive stuff about Morse: that he was an athletic center, that he played very well and had great communication, especially the 2nd half of the season  People are keying on that one comment about "never gonna be the guy to move the NT 3 ft back" but I don't think that's the kind of OL we want to be - at least, nothing I heard in Beane's presser sounded like "we plan to totally retool our OL and RBs to become a power rather than a zone run team".   It was more about execution and how 1 player missing their block can totally stuff the play and we need to practice and emphasize and work on the run plays.

 

Cutting Morse would create more dead cap than we'd save in salary as well as leaving a hole, so I don't see it.

 

About Feliciano, Beane emphasized how valuable his positional flexibility is to them.  But he didn't mention his play at center.  Feliciano is probably our best run blocker, but he is not a pass blocking star.  And when he was playing center, there was at least 1 snap a game where I said "Sunnuvabeeotch, it's a good thing our QB is 6'5" tall".  I think Beane would like him back, but at a "positionally flexible depth" price.  So if someone sees him as a star and pays him, he's gone.

 

I hope we draft either a G or a G/C to develop, but given how complicated our offense is said to be, I'd rather not be in the position where we have to count on them.

 

I wish someone had asked Beane about the other OL guys, especially Bates.
 

[3rdand12]

12 hours ago, fasteddie said:

Most of the passing plays this year found Morse getting pushed back into the pocket, with the KC game his worst effort. On running plays, he could never make the block at the point of attack, allowing penetration which broke up most running plays. 

When he was hurt, Mongo showed much more promise at center. 

I feel that if Bills want to run the ball. Morse is not the guy..

Will not argue the pickup at the time. Even with the injury risk.
 Bills should move on and or offer restructure to Back up Center pay. No hate. but Bills might need to bite the bullet here and consider Morse Not the starter next season. as of right now

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Mongo is a better run blocker, but he's not as good a technician on pass plays.

 

I don't think it's true "most of the passing plays found Morse getting pushed back"....there were a number, but of course we can find passing plays with Feliciano or Williams getting beaten like drums.  Morse did struggle at times... I think working between Brian Winters and either an injured Cody Ford or sometimes Boettger (initially) had a lot to do with it. 

 

But no, there were plenty of pass plays where Josh Allen had time to smoke a cigarette and survey his domain.

 

On running plays as Beane alluded, we are not a power run team and Morse will never be that guy who can help you run up the gut with power.  But Morse is actually a skilled run blocker, and on our zone run plays he was usually not the problem.

 

 

Before injury, it was Harrison Phillips who was rotating with Star at 1TDT.  He was supposed to be the 1TDT of the future, or at least one of them.

Issue became Morse and friends were having trouble getting up field. When they did they all looked good.

 But at some point Bills could not move a DT off the lane more than a yard or so. Mitch struggled to get push and it was becoming too obvious

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/27/2021 at 11:50 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

The 1T position between the guard and center forces a double team.

 

Whomever the Bills used at 1T got the double team this season.......Phillips, Butler, Oliver, Zimmer....

 

The 3T lines up on the outside shoulder of the opposite side guard.

 

The positioning of the 3T makes it very difficult to double team that player...........counterproductive in most cases.

 

Ed Oliver simply needs to work on his game more this offseason........and the Bills need to get some better pass rushers on the rest of the DL.

 

1T plugger was not the problem with this defense.

 

Good explanation of why 1T gets double teams and 3T does not...as we see a number of folks like to talk of DL without understanding the difference.

 

That said, I'm not sure I can entirely agree that 1T plugger was not the problem with this defense....perhaps you mean not the only problem? or not the major problem?

 

Early on it seemed to me they were trying to use Harrison Phillips in his expected role as the emerging 1TDT; I don't remember who they were rotating him with.  But they weren't getting it done.  The Rams ran over us, and we were struggling to get any QB pressure.

 

That led to the Great Kansas City Experiment of "healthy" scratch for Harry and Trent Murphy in favor of Zimmer and Bryan Cox Jr...but as I recall the experiment ran deeper, they were really swapping rotations around trying to find a couple that worked.  And of course, KC just humiliated us in the run game for 245 yds, leading to the Conf Championship epitaph "at least they only ran over us for 114"

 

It seems to me that we were kind of in the mode "can anyone play 1TDT?" much of the year.  It seems like they finally got it done by platooning extensively - everybody played a little 1TDT, everybody played a little 3TDT.  At least I recall being surprised to see Harry lined up at 3T a few times, and of course Oliver played 1T

 

I don't know if you caught in his presser, Beane basically acknowledged Phillips was not really recovered enough from his ACL to play well at the beginning of the season, and "didn't want to" be shut down but they thought it was best to try to have him effective by the season's end (then they barely played him against IND)

 

At times in the season's last games there were plays where he blew up 2 guys and made a tackle.  Perhaps a full offseason of training will bring us the guy they thought they drafted.

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you listen to Beane, he won't tell you everything but he does mean what he says, and it provides clues to his thinking and priorities.

 

Beane said so much positive stuff about Morse: that he was an athletic center, that he played very well and had great communication, especially the 2nd half of the season  People are keying on that one comment about "never gonna be the guy to move the NT 3 ft back" but I don't think that's the kind of OL we want to be - at least, nothing I heard in Beane's presser sounded like "we plan to totally retool our OL and RBs to become a power rather than a zone run team".   It was more about execution and how 1 player missing their block can totally stuff the play and we need to practice and emphasize and work on the run plays.

 

Cutting Morse would create more dead cap than we'd save in salary as well as leaving a hole, so I don't see it.

 

About Feliciano, Beane emphasized how valuable his positional flexibility is to them.  But he didn't mention his play at center.  Feliciano is probably our best run blocker, but he is not a pass blocking star.  And when he was playing center, there was at least 1 snap a game where I said "Sunnuvabeeotch, it's a good thing our QB is 6'5" tall".  I think Beane would like him back, but at a "positionally flexible depth" price.  So if someone sees him as a star and pays him, he's gone.

 

I hope we draft either a G or a G/C to develop, but given how complicated our offense is said to be, I'd rather not be in the position where we have to count on them.

 

I wish someone had asked Beane about the other OL guys, especially Bates.
 

I don’t think the Bills cut Morse either and I think if you improved guard play would help elevate his performance 

 

But given the comment about physicality it does make you wonder.  Here is what Sal had to say about it:

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Not so much the root cause but certainly part of the difference, both he and Ford have a bit of a mean streak and as a combination it is missed in our current run game, jmo. 

 

I have a theory, with only fragments of supporting evidence, that the root cause of the run game problems this year was a "low interest rate" early in the season.

Hang with me a second, and I'll explain what I mean.

 

What was the single most important question for the team to answer this season?  IMO: "Will Josh Allen be that Franchise Guy for us, or No?"  McDermott and Beane had made it clear before the draft, they wanted a guy who could "operate from the pocket" as a passer.  They acquired Diggs to go with Brown and Bease.  They'd upgraded the line.  Josh Allen had spent the off-season reworking his mechanics in pursuit of accuracy.  It was time to "Rut Hog or Die"

 

So, with no OTA or minicamp and abbreviated training camp/no preseason games, and then with turmoil on the OL after Feliciano was injured - I think they gave the Run Game the "Bum's Rush".  I believe every scrap of time Daboll could wrangle got spent working on the passing game, trying to nail down routes and timing concepts that Josh hadn't tried before.

 

My evidence for this is:

1) Beane explicitly pointed to run blocking as a problem and said to achieve balance, we need to practice, emphasize, and work on it.  To me, that implies lack of practice, emphasis, and work on it last training  camp and early in the season

2) Daboll mentioned practicing 50 plays, 48 run 2 pass before the NE game.  Result: 190 rush yards.  McDermott mentioned the run game as a focus for the bye.  Next game LAC: 172 yards.  So somehow when we practiced, emphasized, and worked on the run game - it worked.

 

I don't think they expected the run game to be as poor as it was, for whatever reason.  I think they felt the practice they gave it was "enough".

 

But if it was the thought, I can't argue with the prioritization to do everything possible to make the pass game work correctly and answer that critical Year 3 Question "Will Josh Allen be that Franchise Guy for us, or No?"

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I don’t think the Bills cut Morse either and I think if you improved guard play would help elevate his performance 

 

But given the comment about physicality it does make you wonder.  Here is what Sal had to say about it:

 

 

 

I re-listened to that section of the press conference.  The press really zeroed in on, and amplified the signal, from the comment that Morse is never gonna be a guy to move the nose tackle back 3 feet.  But that was one line several phrases in.  The whole section was very very positive, almost glowing.  Beane's whole demeanor during it was very pleased.

 

 The press likes to make different stuff out of players being a healthy scratch than the team may intend.  They did this when Horrible Harry was scratched.  To the press, it's all "ooooooh, they're moving on!  He's in the doghouse!  He'll be traded...or cut!"   And as the weeks wore on, it became clear that no, he wouldn't be, and he was working his way back into the lineup.

 

The Bills, with the limited off-season and with some players returning from injury and other changes, were focused on "play our best football in January" and were looking, midseason, at combinations of guys they would ordinarily work through in pre-season. 

 

I think Morse was a healthy scratch because the OL Williams-Winters-Feliciano-Boettger-Dawkins played well in a run-centric offense vs. NWE.  So they wanted to see it in a pass-centric offense vs. SEA.  Was it still good?  No.  No it was not.  We won handily, but Allen was sacked 7 times,  had to do a lot of escaping from pressure, and there were a couple shotgun passes where I was "Damn, good thing he's 6'5". 

Experiment over.  Could have been bad news for Morse if it worked, but it didn't.  Here's the ball, Mitch.  Finish the season strong.

 

 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I re-listened to that section of the press conference.  The press really zeroed in on, and amplified the signal, from the comment that Morse is never gonna be a guy to move the nose tackle back 3 feet.  But that was one line several phrases in.  The whole section was very very positive, almost glowing.  Beane's whole demeanor during it was very pleased.

 

 The press likes to make different stuff out of players being a healthy scratch than the team may intend.  They did this when Horrible Harry was scratched.  To the press, it's all "ooooooh, they're moving on!  He's in the doghouse!  He'll be traded...or cut!"   And as the weeks wore on, it became clear that no, he wouldn't be, and he was working his way back into the lineup.

 

The Bills, with the limited off-season and with some players returning from injury and other changes, were focused on "play our best football in January" and were looking, midseason, at combinations of guys they would ordinarily work through in pre-season. 

 

I think Morse was a healthy scratch because the OL Williams-Winters-Feliciano-Boettger-Dawkins played well in a run-centric offense vs. NWE.  So they wanted to see it in a pass-centric offense vs. SEA.  Was it still good?  No.  No it was not.  We won handily, but Allen was sacked 7 times,  had to do a lot of escaping from pressure, and there were a couple shotgun passes where I was "Damn, good thing he's 6'5". 

Experiment over.  Could have been bad news for Morse if it worked, but it didn't.  Here's the ball, Mitch.  Finish the season strong.

 

 

You aren’t wrong about the press amplifying comments from those end of the year pressers.  
 

So many interpreted McDermott saying “we need to run the ball” to mean that they would be reverting back to a ball control, ground and pound offense.

 

It was pretty clear to me that he was referring to running at times when it would be advantageous because the defense is protecting versus the pass.  Especially considering this happened the past two weeks.
 

I guess it’s a long offseason so they need something to write about!

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I have a theory, with only fragments of supporting evidence, that the root cause of the run game problems this year was a "low interest rate" early in the season.

Hang with me a second, and I'll explain what I mean.

 

What was the single most important question for the team to answer this season?  IMO: "Will Josh Allen be that Franchise Guy for us, or No?"  McDermott and Beane had made it clear before the draft, they wanted a guy who could "operate from the pocket" as a passer.  They acquired Diggs to go with Brown and Bease.  They'd upgraded the line.  Josh Allen had spent the off-season reworking his mechanics in pursuit of accuracy.  It was time to "Rut Hog or Die"

 

So, with no OTA or minicamp and abbreviated training camp/no preseason games, and then with turmoil on the OL after Feliciano was injured - I think they gave the Run Game the "Bum's Rush".  I believe every scrap of time Daboll could wrangle got spent working on the passing game, trying to nail down routes and timing concepts that Josh hadn't tried before.

 

My evidence for this is:

1) Beane explicitly pointed to run blocking as a problem and said to achieve balance, we need to practice, emphasize, and work on it.  To me, that implies lack of practice, emphasis, and work on it last training  camp and early in the season

2) Daboll mentioned practicing 50 plays, 48 run 2 pass before the NE game.  Result: 190 rush yards.  McDermott mentioned the run game as a focus for the bye.  Next game LAC: 172 yards.  So somehow when we practiced, emphasized, and worked on the run game - it worked.

 

I don't think they expected the run game to be as poor as it was, for whatever reason.  I think they felt the practice they gave it was "enough".

 

But if it was the thought, I can't argue with the prioritization to do everything possible to make the pass game work correctly and answer that critical Year 3 Question "Will Josh Allen be that Franchise Guy for us, or No?"

 

I hear ya on those thoughts and do not disagree. I mused in another thread that the running game got short shrift, in that Daboll gave it little attention. I do suspect that the refrigerator sized guard (Spain) was missed to some degree, that, on top of Fords injury didn’t help the run game issues.