Doug Whaley Criticizes Sean McDermott’s Game Management vs Chiefs

[NoHuddleKelly12]

10 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

The same people attacking Doug Whaley in this thread would have endlessly defended and supported any decision he would have made if he were still the GM of the Bills.

 

A certain % of the people here have this gang warfare territory type thing going on, where nothing bad can be said of current Bills employees, ever.  Once they leave, they immediately transition into material for criticism.  

 

Look at how this board viewed EJ, Tyrod, Kiko Alonso, and Sammy Watkins to name a few, both while on the roster and after they left it.

Night and day support followed by joking and disrespect.

 

It's odd.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes and no. I would add that we've also seen plenty of criticism doled out to current roster/coaches (e.g., fire Daboll threads during 2018-19 in which full disclosure I also participated in) that is solely based on what we see on the field. Even now, guys like Singletary and Edmunds routinely get called out by a sizable number around here, even if they are also defended. Conversely, Gilmore would be an example of a former player who's still sought after around here whenever the discussion of opposite corner from Tre comes up...  

[JohnNord]

5 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

The same people attacking Doug Whaley in this thread would have endlessly defended and supported any decision he would have made if he were still the GM of the Bills.

 

A certain % of the people here have this gang warfare territory type thing going on, where nothing bad can be said of current Bills employees, ever.  Once they leave, they immediately transition into material for criticism.  

 

Look at how this board viewed EJ, Tyrod, Kiko Alonso, and Sammy Watkins to name a few, both while on the roster and after they left it.

Night and day support followed by joking and disrespect.

 

It's odd.

 

 

 

 

 

 
I completely disagree.  At one point fans were ok with Whaley.  They were also ok with Rex Ryan.  Plans change.  Losing does that.

 

By the end of 2016 the majority of the Bills fan base were frustrated and soured on Whaley as GM.  I don’t remember many shedding tears when he was gone, though there were some supporters.

 

Of course, if you don’t think he was very good himself, you’ll take offense to Whaley criticizing someone who was better than him 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

27 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I understand and appreciate your view and you make a cogent argument. My question was related to an undercurrent of dislike for Whaley because he did not succeed as a GM for the Bills. As you did, its fair to questions his credentials as a game strategy evaluator but simply dismissing his views due to his job performance is not the right way to look at it. 

Imo, if Whaley had prioritized and taken a good QB early in his tenure, his stay with the Bills would have been viewed far more sympathetically. Beane has built a good team overall but truth be told, he has not really hit on many of his high picks. As examples, the performances from Oliver, Epenesa, Knox, Singletary have been underwhelming related to where they were picked. I dont want to hijack this thread in that direction but wanted to make a point that picking a good QB covers up for a lot of other draft mistakes

^^^Yep. That's a point than many here have made from Day 1 of this regime--hit on QB, your ticket's been punched. Whiff on QB, but hit on everything else? There's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out...and rightly so, as that's the single greatest individual factor to determine franchise staying power/success, imho. 

[JohnNord]

31 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

 

1 hour ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I understand and appreciate your view and you make a cogent argument. My question was related to an undercurrent of dislike for Whaley because he did not succeed as a GM for the Bills. As you did, its fair to questions his credentials as a game strategy evaluator but simply dismissing his views due to his job performance is not the right way to look at it. 

Imo, if Whaley had prioritized and taken a good QB early in his tenure, his stay with the Bills would have been viewed far more sympathetically. Beane has built a good team overall but truth be told, he has not really hit on many of his high picks. As examples, the performances from Oliver, Epenesa, Knox, Singletary have been underwhelming related to where they were picked. I dont want to hijack this thread in that direction but wanted to make a point that picking a good QB covers up for a lot of other draft mistakes

I think you are being far too generous to Whaley.  First off a successful GM does more than draft players.  It’s about working with a coach and building a vision and then an actual team.  Whaley failed at all of this.  
 

While you can question whether “hit” on picks or not, take a look at the draft record of Beane’s first 2 drafts vs Whaley’s 3 drafts.  His picks were not home runs, but they were far better than Whaley.  
 

We’ve known for decades that QB is a team’s biggest priority.  This is why Beane took a risk to get Allen and then developed a plan to see him grow.  
 

Whaley did prioritize QB - he just made a terrible choice and WHO he prioritized.  Then rather than cutting he doubled down on his bad choice and it likely cost him his job in the end.  
 

Let’s call a spade, a spade here.  Whaley was not a very good GM

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

That explains it then.  If you have a favorable opinion of Doug Whaley, then of course it won’t bother you. 
 

If you didn’t think he was very good, you’re going to take exception with a person in leadership criticizing the coach who was way more successful.

 

Its like Zay Jones saying that Stefon Diggs is too soft at getting off the LOS.  Same reaction

 

Also you said Doug never picked his coaches?  That’s your speculation but I listen to the podcast and he never has claimed that.  Ty also said that Whaley hired McDermott.  So it appears that isn’t true

It doesn’t mean he can’t comment.  Everyone can comments.

 

But you shouldn’t be surprised that fans are giving him push back.  McDermott did what Doug never could in turning around a franchise, so of course fans are going to give him a negative reaction and question his credibility   

If someone is providing accurate criticism it doesn’t matter if it’s a former GM or the janitor at the local high school. If it’s right, it’s right. It’s stupid to get mad at someone for being right. Also I’m not a Whaley fan

[spartacus]

19 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Disagree.... he obviously didn’t have a good feel for the game or was coaching scared. The Bills defense could not stop the Chiefs. They needed TDS to keep pace. A FG wasn’t going to do much there. 

gotta love treating it as 100% guaranteed that the Bills would have scored a TD, then using that benchmark to say taking the FG was stupid

[Protocal69]

Why does Whaley care anyways. Remember per Whaley himself football is a violent game that he personally doesn't think humans are meant to play.  

[djp14150]

19 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

McD’s decision to kick in the first half based on “morale” was absolutely the right one. You could tell the team was shell shocked. They had to get points. I thought it was very astute coaching.
 

The national pundits didn’t see how aggressive he was all year, and how this was a total change from what he normally does— based on his very good instincts of looking at his team at that moment. 
 

The second half decision was too risk averse, as I think McD will now concede. But hindsight is 20/20. If the D had gotten a stop or turnover, it would have probably worked out pretty well. But they didn’t, and we spiraled down. 

I understand at the end of half of kicking FG at end of half after they scored 21 unanswered.  My criticism isn’t around that. It’s the plays before and getting a TD on 1-2-3 down,  second half FG...kicking to 15 being down 24-12 at the time of the kick, I’d go for it and not settle for FGs

[Hapless Bills Fan]

53 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

If someone is providing accurate criticism it doesn’t matter if it’s a former GM or the janitor at the local high school. If it’s right, it’s right. It’s stupid to get mad at someone for being right. Also I’m not a Whaley fan

 

I think someone up thread pretty much called it.  It's not about whether the criticism is justified, it's the context of who you once were and what kind of decisions were made on your watch.

 

Given the game decisions and records made by the coaches Whaley presumably had strong say in hiring, for him to go on the air and publicly criticize the coach we have now, who took us to our first AFC championship game in >25 years, appears unbecoming to some of us. 

 

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't think it makes the above viewpoint stupid.

 

25 minutes ago, spartacus said:

gotta love treating it as 100% guaranteed that the Bills would have scored a TD, then using that benchmark to say taking the FG was stupid

 

Yep.  Whatever happens, if you lose the game there will always be second-guessing.

[JohnNord]

49 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

If someone is providing accurate criticism it doesn’t matter if it’s a former GM or the janitor at the local high school. If it’s right, it’s right. It’s stupid to get mad at someone for being right. Also I’m not a Whaley fan

Not really.  If your friend got a new job and the guy who she replaced said something critical, you’d have the same reaction.  I get why fans don’t hear it.   What do you expect them to say?  
 

It’s being critical of the person - not necessarily the message.  If those big decisions were so easy then why didn’t Doug did fail so many?   

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think someone up thread pretty much called it.  It's not about whether the criticism is justified, it's the context of who you once were and what kind of decisions were made on your watch.

 

Given the game decisions and records made by the coaches Whaley presumably had strong say in hiring, for him to go on the air and publicly criticize the coach we have now, who took us to our first AFC championship game in >25 years, appears unbecoming to some of us. 

 

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't think it makes the above viewpoint stupid.

 

 

Yep.  Whatever happens, if you lose the game there will always be second-guessing.

I couldn’t have said it better myself (and I tried really hard too!) 😀

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think someone up thread pretty much called it.  It's not about whether the criticism is justified, it's the context of who you once were and what kind of decisions were made on your watch.

 

Given the game decisions and records made by the coaches Whaley presumably had strong say in hiring, for him to go on the air and publicly criticize the coach we have now, who took us to our first AFC championship game in >25 years, appears unbecoming to some of us. 

 

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't think it makes the above viewpoint stupid.

 

 

Yep.  Whatever happens, if you lose the game there will always be second-guessing.

We will have to disagree on this

[JohnNord]

29 minutes ago, spartacus said:

gotta love treating it as 100% guaranteed that the Bills would have scored a TD, then using that benchmark to say taking the FG was stupid

Exactly, it’s also unrealistic to expect that the game would play out exactly as it did if they made those conversions. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

7 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Not really.  If your friend got a new job and the guy who she replaced said something critical, you’d have the same reaction.  I get why fans don’t hear it.   What do you expect them to say?  
 

It’s being critical of the person - not necessarily the message.  If those big decisions were so easy then why didn’t Doug did fail so many?   

I couldn’t have said it better myself (and I tried really hard too!)

 I would listen to the advice and look into if it was accurate or not. If it is accurate I would act accordingly. If it wasn’t accurate I would ignore it. People I don’t like are right all the time. It doesn’t change the fact that they’re right. It wouldn’t make sense for me to get mad at what they said.
 

You keep making assumptions that everyone thinks and acts the same way. That’s stupid 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Not at the table Karlos

[JohnNord]

3 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

 I would listen to the advice and look into if it was accurate or not. If it is accurate I would act accordingly. If it wasn’t accurate I would ignore it. People I don’t like are right all the time. It doesn’t change the fact that they’re right. You keep making assumptions that everyone thinks and acts the same way. That’s stupid 

I totally don’t buy this.

[Shaw66]

19 hours ago, JohnNord said:

This clip has generated a lot of interesting discussion.  Whaley echoes what a lot of fans have said about McDermott.  But because of past stint as GM, it’s pissed off a lot of fans.  
 

I’ll say this... I’ve listed to some of these podcasts and Doug isn’t really bitter.  If anything he takes the high road and goes out of his way not to say anything critical.  I feel that he doesn’t want to burn any bridges to get back to the NFL.  

 

I get why Bills fans are pissed though 
 

 

1.  I think Whaley is absolutely right.

 

2.  I like Whaley.  I think he's a good guy, and none of this is motivated by bitterness.

 

3.  I think Whaley should know better than to say this.  Maybe he's getting paid to be a talking head, maybe he's trying to stay in the game, maybe whatever.   Just like a good coach understands never to be critical of a current player or a former player, Whaley should understand that the nature of their history and their relationship is such that he shouldn't be saying things like this. 

 

4.  What's good about McDermott is that he's always trying to learn and get better.   He doesn't need Doug Whaley to critique him, but McD is so good that if he sees this clip he will listen to it, evaluate it, and learn from it.   Frankly, I think McD in hindsight probably agrees with some or all of it.  He's going to be better in his next championship game. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

1.  I think Whaley is absolutely right.

 

2.  I like Whaley.  I think he's a good guy, and none of this is motivated by bitterness.

 

3.  I think Whaley should know better than to say this.  Maybe he's getting paid to be a talking head, maybe he's trying to stay in the game, maybe whatever.   Just like a good coach understands never to be critical of a current player or a former player, Whaley should understand that the nature of their history and their relationship is such that he shouldn't be saying things like this. 

 

4.  What's good about McDermott is that he's always trying to learn and get better.   He doesn't need Doug Whaley to critique him, but McD is so good that if he sees this clip he will listen to it, evaluate it, and learn from it.   Frankly, I think McD in hindsight probably agrees with some or all of it.  He's going to be better in his next championship game. 

According to some people in this thread, that is not possible 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Not at the table Karlos

[JohnNord]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

1.  I think Whaley is absolutely right.

 

2.  I like Whaley.  I think he's a good guy, and none of this is motivated by bitterness.

 

3.  I think Whaley should know better than to say this.  Maybe he's getting paid to be a talking head, maybe he's trying to stay in the game, maybe whatever.   Just like a good coach understands never to be critical of a current player or a former player, Whaley should understand that the nature of their history and their relationship is such that he shouldn't be saying things like this. 

 

4.  What's good about McDermott is that he's always trying to learn and get better.   He doesn't need Doug Whaley to critique him, but McD is so good that if he sees this clip he will listen to it, evaluate it, and learn from it.   Frankly, I think McD in hindsight probably agrees with some or all of it.  He's going to be better in his next championship game. 

Glad there are people here who can illustrate my thoughts better than I can!

 

I agree with all of your points.  To point #3, Whaley does understand this.  I’ve listened to the podcast and he won’t really say anything bad about anyone.  That includes Doug Marrone, Rex Ryan, Russ Brandon, Terry Pegula etc.  In fact, he’ll stretch the truth a bit so he doesn’t have to say something negative about his past.  

 

He will offer his thoughts on the NFL as like he’s an analyst on ESPN.  But like you said, he probably should’ve more self-aware of this situation 

4 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

According to some people in this thread, that is not possible 

Yep and that’s where I’ll agree.  I listen to his podcast and don’t see him a bitter to the situation.  I’m just saying that I understand fans who question him

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

20 hours ago, JohnNord said:

This clip has generated a lot of interesting discussion.  Whaley echoes what a lot of fans have said about McDermott.  But because of past stint as GM, it’s pissed off a lot of fans.  
 

I’ll say this... I’ve listed to some of these podcasts and Doug isn’t really bitter.  If anything he takes the high road and goes out of his way not to say anything critical.  I feel that he doesn’t want to burn any bridges to get back to the NFL.  

 

I get why Bills fans are pissed though 
 

 

Another Whaley Gem. 😂 😂 

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

According to some people in this thread, that is not possible 

Well, to be clear, I probably should have said "I don't think" that Whaley was motivated by bitterness.   I certainly don't know, but he just has always seemed like a straight shooter to me.   He's been in the game a long time, and he knows people get fired.   I doubt he was surprised to get fired, and I'd guess that he understood fully that he was getting fired because of the body of his work, not because McD wanted to stick a knife in him.   But I certainly admit that I don't know any of that to be true - it's just what I think.

[QLBillsFan]

59 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, to be clear, I probably should have said "I don't think" that Whaley was motivated by bitterness.   I certainly don't know, but he just has always seemed like a straight shooter to me.   He's been in the game a long time, and he knows people get fired.   I doubt he was surprised to get fired, and I'd guess that he understood fully that he was getting fired because of the body of his work, not because McD wanted to stick a knife in him.   But I certainly admit that I don't know any of that to be true - it's just what I think.

Exactly. The objective criticism of McDermy is warranted. He’s since admitted as such. Whaley just happens to be the Bills former GM. He’s not alone. Don’t get the bitterness angle.