So...are Edmunds and Oliver good?

[HappyDays]

I feel like there are multiple games a season where the opposing offense makes it a point to attack Edmunds and he always lets them get away with it. Run it right at him or confuse him with misdirection in the pass game. It's guaranteed yards every time. He was the biggest problem on defense yesterday. It would be a little easier to swallow if he ever showed flashes of elite play but it just isn't happening. I'm about done with him.

 

I still believe in Oliver. He's been playing 1-tech way too much this year. Next season when Star is presumably back I hope he is never played out of position again. He was probably our most consistent d-line player at pushing the pocket this year when he was asked to do so. Needs to become a better finisher to take his game to the next level.

 

6 hours ago, babulator said:

Edmunds is a mystery to me. You would think being that tall and having that wingspan he'd be tipping and touching alot more balls on the field. He also really struggles to get off blocks and seems to shoot the wrong gap more often than the right one. I also have a hard time understanding why he struggles in coverage soo much, he's fast, long, tall, they say he has good instincts and is smart, I don't get it. 

 

When the first person coined the cliche "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" they were watching a Tremaine Edmunds pro reel. True story.

Edited January 26, 2021 by HappyDays

[Jpsredemption]

But “Edmunds is so young”...when is that well going to run dry? The guy is not an impact middle linebacker in the NFL. He’s just not. 

[BillsShredder83]

Can anyone explain why they think Edmunds is tailor made for OLB but not MLB. I have a couple core ideas but im sure I'm overlooking alot. Im not being a jerk, sincerely asking for the crowd who knows better.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I feel like there are multiple games a season where the opposing offense makes it a point to attack Edmunds and he always lets them get away with it. Run it right at him or confuse him with misdirection in the pass game. It's guaranteed yards every time. He was the biggest problem on defense yesterday. It would be a little easier to swallow if he ever showed flashes of elite play but it just isn't happening. I'm about done with him.

 

I still believe in Oliver. He's been playing 1-tech way too much this year. Next season when Star is presumably back I hope he is never played out of position again. He was probably our most consistent d-line player at pushing the pocket this year when he was asked to do so. Needs to become a better finisher to take his game to the next level.

 

 

When the first person coined the cliche "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" they were watching a Tremaine Edmunds pro reel. True story.

 

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Can anyone explain why they think Edmunds is tailor made for OLB but not MLB. I have a couple core ideas but im sure I'm overlooking alot. Im not being a jerk, sincerely asking for the crowd who knows better.

 

Yeah I don't get it. He can't shed blocks or tackle particularly well. I guess the thought process is he won't have to rely on his instincts as much but that's not 100% true and instincts aren't the only weakness in his game. His best trait is being long and tall enough to close passing windows in the middle of the field.

 

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

I don't really care about his run stopping ability. The disappointment this year is he can't play the pass all that well either. He's good for standing tall in the middle of the field and baiting QBs to look elsewhere. But when teams make it a point to attack him it works all too well. We've gotten abused by TEs all year long and he's supposed to be the guy stopping them. A couple clips showing him filling the right gaps - which is a basic responsibility - aren't going to change my mind.

Edited January 26, 2021 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I don't get it. He can't shed blocks or tackle particularly well. I guess the thought process is he won't have to rely on his instincts as much but that's not 100% true and instincts aren't the only weakness in his game. His best trait is being long and tall enough to close passing windows in the middle of the field.

 

I don't really care about his run stopping ability. The disappointment this year is he can't play the pass all that well either. He's good for standing tall in the middle of the field and baiting QBs to look elsewhere. But when teams make it a point to attack him it works all too well. We've gotten abused by TEs all year long and he's supposed to be the guy stopping them. A couple clips showing him filling the right gaps - which is a basic responsibility - aren't going to change my mind.

Read the thread

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Read the thread

 

Okay here's a better way of making my point - what was Edmunds's signature play this year? When has he made a play that the defense needed to be made? No big hits to force an incompletion or fumble, no interceptions, no big stops in big moments. If you made a highlight reel of him this year it would be totally normal plays that MLBs are expected to make. He has shown flashes of being competent. No flashes of greatness. Feels like a guy where you'll always be saying "can't wait until next year..." until it's too late.

[Alphadawg7]

Here is what too many fail to realize...We need BEEF in the middle of the DL in the worst way and without it, BOTH Oliver and Edmunds jobs are a lot harder to do.  I see people mentioning that about Oliver, but they also dont realize the impact it has on the LB's when the DL is easily manhandled in front of them because they are under sized.  It allows more blockers to get out on Edmunds, other holes to open up making the LB now out of position, etc.

 

I mean Edmunds just made back to back Pro Bowls, is young, and has plenty of ceiling left in front of him.  Oliver, I am not sold on, but he has shown enough last year next to Star that makes me want to see more of him next to a true 1TDT.  

 

My guess, the top 5 priority list of the offseason is going to look something like this for FA, trades and Draft:

 

DT - Hard to imagine this not being the top priority

TE - Knox I think is a quality #2 guy, but he is not starter level.  Maybe he gets there one day, but there should be some nice TE's available via trade or FA this offseason, and I think Beane could go get one.

RB - While I know they like Devin and Moss, I think that its clear we need someone explosive with good hands to at least compliment them or be our lead back. 

CB - Norman was a 1 year deal, dont see him coming back.  I can see them bringing someone in to challenge Levi for starting job opposite Tre

DE - Murphy will be gone, and Espenesa is unproven still to go along with our old vets in Hughes and Addison.  So I expect they will either add some depth here in FA, or draft one, possibly first 2 rounds if someone they covet is on the board.  

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I don't get it. He can't shed blocks or tackle particularly well. I guess the thought process is he won't have to rely on his instincts as much but that's not 100% true and instincts aren't the only weakness in his game. His best trait is being long and tall enough to close passing windows in the middle of the field.

 

 

I don't really care about his run stopping ability. The disappointment this year is he can't play the pass all that well either. He's good for standing tall in the middle of the field and baiting QBs to look elsewhere. But when teams make it a point to attack him it works all too well. We've gotten abused by TEs all year long and he's supposed to be the guy stopping them. A couple clips showing him filling the right gaps - which is a basic responsibility - aren't going to change my mind.

He played great vs. Baltimore. Don't forget that.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Okay here's a better way of making my point - what was Edmunds's signature play this year? When has he made a play that the defense needed to be made? No big hits to force an incompletion or fumble, no interceptions, no big stops in big moments. If you made a highlight reel of him this year it would be totally normal plays that MLBs are expected to make. He has shown flashes of being competent. No flashes of greatness. Feels like a guy where you'll always be saying "can't wait until next year..." until it's too late.

Edmunds is the pivot of the defense, for better or worse. The scheme revolves around him and White. This season his job has been made immense more difficult due to the inability of our DTs to win 1v1.

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Here is what too many fail to realize...We need BEEF in the middle of the DL in the worst way and without it, BOTH Oliver and Edmunds jobs are a lot harder to do.  I see people mentioning that about Oliver, but they also dont realize the impact it has on the LB's when the DL is easily manhandled in front of them because they are under sized.  It allows more blockers to get out on Edmunds, other holes to open up making the LB now out of position, etc.

 

I mean Edmunds just made back to back Pro Bowls, is young, and has plenty of ceiling left in front of him.  Oliver, I am not sold on, but he has shown enough last year next to Star that makes me want to see more of him next to a true 1TDT.  

 

My guess, the top 5 priority list of the offseason is going to look something like this for FA, trades and Draft:

 

DT - Hard to imagine this not being the top priority

TE - Knox I think is a quality #2 guy, but he is not starter level.  Maybe he gets here one day, but There should be some nice TE's available via trade or FA this offseason, and I think Beane could go get one.

RB - While I know they like Devin and Moss, I think that its clear we need someone explosive with good hands to at least compliment them or be our lead back. 

CB - Norman was a 1 year deal, dont see him coming back.  I can see them bringing someone in to challenge Levi for starting job opposite Tre

DE - Murphy will be gone, and Espenesa is unproven still to go along with our old vets in Hughes and Addison.  So I expect they will either add some depth here in FA, or draft one, possibly first 2 rounds if someone they covet is on the board.  

 

My one caveat is that you have to be more patient with young players. Edmunds is just 22 still, and Knox is a young 24. Both are extremely talented and way above average with regard to 40 times relative to their positions and size. NFL coaching is all about extracting the best out of raw, elite talent, and both of those guys are very talented physically.

Edited January 26, 2021 by dave mcbride

[97bills]

21 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

But “Edmunds is so young”...when is that well going to run dry? The guy is not an impact middle linebacker in the NFL. He’s just not. 

Thank you so sick of hearing that dude will be in his 4 year next season 

[ticketssince61]

8 hours ago, BillnutinHouston said:

Good post.  Yesterday's loss had me thinking about this same question since between Edmunds, Oliver and Epenesa  we have invested 3 very high picks.

 

Edmunds isn't developing.  Oliver isn't penetrating at a rate I'd expect.  Epenesa, jury's still out - was surprised that he got the nod over Murphy yesterday.

 

 Actually 4 picks since we traded up for Edmunds

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Edmunds is the pivot of the defense, for better or worse. The scheme revolves around him and White. This season his job has been made immense more difficult due to the inability of our DTs to win 1v1.

I think he’s arguing it’s probably “for worse.” 

[Reed83HOF]

 

I'm not paying 2 LBs $27 million. I would rather pay Milano than Edmunds.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

I think he’s arguing it’s probably “for worse.” 

Yeah and I’m arguing that would be incorrect.

[97bills]

4 hours ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

I think the jury is still out on both players but in Edmunds case I think a lot of you are answering based on yesterday's game and I'm not sure that's very fair.  If linebackers are going to be judged by whether they can cover Kelce then I think pretty much all LB would suck.

Next year will be his 4 year in the NFL I hope he makes a big leap but from what I’ve seen I doubt it. So that jury been out for a while now time for a verdict 

[HappyDays]

35 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Edmunds is the pivot of the defense, for better or worse.

 

I know, McDermott and Beane thought he would be their Kuechly. The problem is Kuechly had some of the best instincts the league has ever seen. Edmunds... doesn't. It would be something if he had shown improvement year over year but his career trajectory has been all over the place. If they want to pick up his 5th year option and see if the light goes on that's fine. I'm not banking on it though.

 

34 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

My one caveat is that you have to be more patient with young players. Edmunds is just 22 still

 

Yeah I just don't know what skills he is going to develop with age. Even his physical skills I am starting to question if they are football traits or athlete traits. He's tall and long and fast. But he can't shed blocks or tackle particularly well or punish the ball carrier in space. I don't know how to describe my feelings on this exactly but it's weird watching someone that looks like the predator try to form tackle someone. Milano by necessity has to form tackle people and he does it pretty well. Edmunds shouldn't have to try that hard and even when he does he sometimes misses. I'm not saying I want an old school thumper out there, but he at least needs to put fear into his opponent. Right now the only thing about him that scares offenses is he might get his long arms in the way of the pass.

Edited January 26, 2021 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I know, McDermott and Beane thought he would be their Kuechly. The problem is Kuechly had some of the best instincts the league has ever seen. Edmunds... doesn't. It would be something if he had shown improvement year over year but his career trajectory has been all over the place. If they want to pick up his 5th year option and see if the light goes on that's fine. I'm not banking on it though.

I predict they fix the interior defensive line and Edmunds returns to form. IMO consternation over his play, similar to Lotulelei’s last season, stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of his role(s) in the defense.

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I predict they fix the interior defensive line and Edmunds returns to form. IMO consternation over his play, similar to Lotulelei’s last season, stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of his role(s) in the defense.

 

I never had a problem with Lotulelei because he was just a role player doing what he was asked. From a 1-tech that's fine. Edmunds is the QB of the defense. It isn't enough to say "well he's filling his role." We need a difference maker there. He either needs to make game changing plays from time to time or he needs to be consistently good at the little things.