LABILLBACKER Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said: dude young has nothing to do with it when its your third year in the league. how many years of experience he need to get better? youth is a horrible excuse Exactly. You can no longer play the "he's young" card. He's making the same instinctual mistakes now as he did season 1 episode 1. Try him out as a OLB and if that doesn't work move on. You can only be enamored over youth for so long. 1
In Summary Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said: Oliver is the reason I love big, sloppy DTs with a mean streak. You cannot coach or teach God-given massive bulk. Oliver is a high effort guy but he is just plain too small. Like Albert Haynesworth without the head stomping. I'll say Oliver is at minimum good enough for certain packages if a big DT can keep him clean.
Giuseppe Tognarelli Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 I think the way to answer this question is to look at the draft status of Edmunds, Oliver, and to a lesser extent Epenesa and think about what you would typically expect to get from those draft slots. Unfortunately, objectively, they appear to be busts (still early with Epenesa, but I don't see much to suggest otherwise). Imagine the defense if they were all stars like they should have been. 1 1 1
Freddie's Dead Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 These guys are only valuable with a true 1 technique DT, like Star Lotulelei. With Star back next season, I expect big things from Edmunds and Eddie O.
Jeff1954 Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 I keep reading that Buffalo has the most expensive D line in the NFL. That is a big problem because the line has not played near that level. Beane, being really smart, has structured a lot of the FA contracts so Buffalo can walk away from them before next season. This also will be a big help with the reduced salary cap. At this stage, we certainly keep Oliver. I have read a number of people on this board suggest we try him at DE. Why not, especially if there is a preseason next year? There is a huge difference between what the fans on this board and elsewhere see with Edmunds and what McD and his fellow players say about him. No answers from me but it will be difficult to keep him and Milano and by any measure, Milano has looked the more valuable player.
NickelCity Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 I honestly have no clue. I feel like Oliver has been given a rough supporting cast, and I'm not sure I understand our defense enough to evaluate Edmunds. But he rarely pops, that's for sure. Like many others id be really interested to see him at OLB. 1
balln Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) i dont love pff. but i think its something that helps w objectivity especially with low stat positions. I think this is all that needs to be said aaron donald grade is 94 chris jones 90 deforest buckner is 89 shaq lawson 70 harrison phillips 61 and wait for it....... oliver is 48. wow. just wow Edited January 25, 2021 by balln 1
billieve420 Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Brennan Huff said: Oliver is completely invisible on the field Whole d-line is undersized you are going to get pushed around. Need that tackle next to him who can take up 2 defenders and take up space to allow Oliver to attack the QB. D-line had to play out of position this year due to Star opting out which clearly affected the entire team's play.
balln Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 more pff rankings for LB (im not going to nit pick OLB v MLB - this is a rough guage) anthony hitchens kc LB 50 damien wilson kc lb 51.8 zadarius smith gb lb 76.7 shaq barrett TB LB 70.7 and wait for it......edmunds is 47!!!!!!!!!
dave mcbride Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 2 hours ago, JerseyBills said: I feel like Edmunds was picked on multiple times. He falls for the "window dressing " as they say, way too much- motion , play action , pump fakes . Gotta watch the all 22. But I've said all year that once he got healthy around week 8-9 , the D started to look like the 2019 D. I'll chalk it up to a bad game and gameplan. I think Oliver is very good , I think not having Star really hurt him I think this is unfair. He played well vs. Baltimore, but playing zone against Pat Mahomes and Kelce with no pass rush in front of him is setting him up to lose on every play. It's simply too easy for the receiver to adjust. There's not a LB in the league who can stop that combo playing that technique.
Sharky7337 Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 2 hours ago, The Jokeman said: Edmunds has shown he can be good but not great. I think he's best suited as a strong side LB and feel is better at rushing the passer then being a sideline to sideline guy. Because he was named to 2 Pro Bowls think he'll be looking for too big a contract to keep. Oliver on other hand just hasn't been shown to be much. Like Edmunds I keep them for their 4 years and not rush to re-sign to top end money. I dont agree with this at all. Everytime Edmunds blitzes he gets absorbed. He's terrible at rushing the passer. He had 2 sacks and 4 tackles for loss total. I dont mean to be rude but I just don't understand how you got to him rushing the passer he's terrible at it. Everytime he blitzes we basically give them one less person to worry about.
dave mcbride Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, balln said: more pff rankings for LB (im not going to nit pick OLB v MLB - this is a rough guage) anthony hitchens kc LB 50 damien wilson kc lb 51.8 zadarius smith gb lb 76.7 shaq barrett TB LB 70.7 and wait for it......edmunds is 47!!!!!!!!! He was bad in the first half of the season because he was literally playing injured. Factor that in.
KOKBILLS Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 I think Oliver and Edmunds can be part of a very good Defense, I just don't think it's this Defense or this design any longer. McD is going to have to go back to the drawing board, especially with this front 7. There are both personnel and scheme needs that need to be addressed. I think the warnings were there all season, but we got bailed out by some very timely turnovers in big moments. Everyone knows that is not a formula for consistent success on Defense in the course of an entire season, and even more in the Playoffs. It will catch up to you eventually. Especially vs Offenses like KC's... There are obvious Cap considerations...But my best guess is something like this will happen personnel-wise. Milano will be allowed to leave unless he wants to give the Bills a 1 year deal at a major home town rate. Edmunds will be moved to Milano's spot and the Bills will either Draft, sign, or trade for a more traditional 4-3 MLB who is decent in zone coverage. If Star comes back that will help Oliver quite a bit. But no matter what that has to be addressed. I really don't think Oliver will amount to much more than he is now. A rotational guy who is high effort but VERY undersized. The Bills #1 priority on Defense in the off season will be to bring in talent to help the Pass Rush. Regardless of what happens personnel-wise, this scheme and a lot of their game-planning need a major workover under a serious microscope. Self Scouting and some real, honest, and I'm sure humbling, conversations need to take place. There is plenty to build on....But some major changes are needed on D. 😎
Tcali Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Adamb412 said: edmunds is young the dude is still growing. I wasn't that much of a fan of Oliver when drafted at a DT. he is too small as a DT. I don't know why they don't try him at DE i agree..with the Oliver part. Edmunds...he will be OK(avg) but I havent seen a hint of a 16th overall pick
Sharky7337 Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said: These guys are only valuable with a true 1 technique DT, like Star Lotulelei. With Star back next season, I expect big things from Edmunds and Eddie O. I know this is the popular board take but there is absolutely no merit to it yet , and everyone just regurgitates it as fact. I don't remember any other lb's or defenses that were worth anything being totally pedestrian on one 1t. And if you need a 1t and it falls apart you better have a solid backup or its a bad plan. Edited January 25, 2021 by Sharky7337
pigpen65 Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 Edmunds definitely isn't an inside LB. Inside LB's don't routinely get blocked 10 yards off the line on run plays. Should be moved to OLB 1
Tcali Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, KOKBILLS said: I think Oliver and Edmunds can be part of a very good Defense, I just don't think it's this Defense or this design any longer. McD is going to have to go back to the drawing board, especially with this front 7. There are both personnel and scheme needs that need to be addressed. I think the warnings were there all season, but we got bailed out by some very timely turnovers in big moments. Everyone knows that is not a formula for consistent success on Defense in the course of an entire season, and even more in the Playoffs. It will catch up to you eventually. Especially vs Offenses like KC's... There are obvious Cap considerations...But my best guess is something like this will happen personnel-wise. Milano will be allowed to leave unless he wants to give the Bills a 1 year deal at a major home town rate. Edmunds will be moved to Milano's spot and the Bills will either Draft, sign, or trade for a more traditional 4-3 MLB who is decent in zone coverage. If Star comes back that will help Oliver quite a bit. But no matter what that has to be addressed. I really don't think Oliver will amount to much more than he is now. A rotational guy who is high effort but VERY undersized. The Bills #1 priority on Defense in the off season will be to bring in talent to help the Pass Rush. Regardless of what happens personnel-wise, this scheme and a lot of their game-planning need a major workover under a serious microscope. Self Scouting and some real, honest, and I'm sure humbling, conversations need to take place. There is plenty to build on....But some major changes are needed on D. 😎 great post. I do hope they keep Milano he is the best tackler of our front 7. 1
KOKBILLS Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tcali said: great post. I do hope they keep Milano he is the best tackler of our front 7. Me too! At this point it's all about how they can maneuver with the Cap...😎 4 minutes ago, pigpen65 said: Edmunds definitely isn't an inside LB. Inside LB's don't routinely get blocked 10 yards off the line on run plays. Should be moved to OLB Even when he guesses right and beats his block he misses WAY too many tackles near or at the line of scrimmage... It's frustrating...😎
Ethan in Cleveland Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 Edmunds is not even average. He really is a liability on the defense at MLB. I dont care about his age. He has played for three years and is not getting any better. I still am of the opinion if Edmunds was moved outside to edge he would be a nightmare matchup. He is not the answer at MLB and for that reason I'm comfortable labeling him a bust at this point. Oliver is an average DT at this point in his career. DT takes longer to develop. For his draft positon he is a disappointment but not yet a bust. He doesn't split double teams and has very little pass rush. I don't care what win rate somebody publishes, I watch the game and he does not push the pocket or move the QB off his spot. At worst Oliver will be a starter maybe even bordering on solid starter. I really doubt he will be a pro bowl talent. He was never big enough to be a star, but I think he can still be a decent starting level DT.
billsfan89 Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 I think both are good above average starting caliber players. I think we are doing Oliver no favors this season because they had to play him at the nose tackle position where he isn't able to pass rush. I think in 2021 when Star gets back and hopefully H.Phillips comes back to form after a year removed from a major injury (he was a beast in the first 5 games in 2019 hoping he gets back to that) they won't need to play Ed at NT and he can be more of a pure pass rusher and really pull up the sack and pass rush numbers. Ed Oliver was in my opinion a big reason as to why the run defense improved, Milano returning helped but I certainly think Ed improving his play was a factor in that (Butler was also improved in that capacity too). So I am very high on Oliver being a foundational piece to this team. I think if he has a proper NT next to him and better DE play outside he can be an 8 sack a year type DT who is very disruptive. Edumonds is entering into year 4 and I think his option will be picked up. I don't think Edumonds will get much better than he is. This was year 3 for him but even if he doesn't get that much better he still is a quality LB. But overall he is a solid point on the defense even if his play is going to likely not improve dramatically. Still both guys are key parts of the defense going forward.
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