What are your ideas to fix the Bills' running game for next year?

[Shaw66]

What do I know?  I'm just a fan, but I'd offer this, Logic:

 

Scheme and personnel.  That's what football is about.  

 

I don't think the Bills have been creative enough in the running game.  I don't know anything about how to design a running game, but what the Bills did running this season looked pretty plain vanilla to me.  I think the Bills weren't good at misdirection, weren't good in the outside zone blocking schemes, and weren't good at attacking the defensive fronts presented to them.   Yes, they ran an occasional jet sweep, but when the Bills do that stuff it looks like a gimmick they've inserted into an otherwise bland running game.  The style of the running game is not flashy or creative.

 

So much for scheme.  As for personnel, speed is the obvious missing characteristic.  McKenzie was their speed back, and he was just a gadget player.  Maybe the Bills should have tried running him out of the backfield, do quick pitches to him, and maybe even letting him hit it up the middle on misdirection plays.   Just as McDermott has been clear that the passing game has to be able to stretch the field vertically, the running game needs to stretch it horizontally, and Singletary and Moss don't have the speed to do that.  

 

And some of the problem has to be on the offensive line.  If Morse is going to be your center, he's fine for the pulling game, but power isn't his style.  He needs to be paired with a couple of quick but tough guards.  Feliciano is one.   Is Ford the other?   I don't know.  Are Dawkins and Williams the guys to get it done at tackle?  I don't know. 

 

Point is, everything in the running game has to get better. 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

What do I know?  I'm just a fan, but I'd offer this, Logic:

 

Scheme and personnel.  That's what football is about.  

 

I don't think the Bills have been creative enough in the running game.  I don't know anything about how to design a running game, but what the Bills did running this season looked pretty plain vanilla to me.  I think the Bills weren't good at misdirection, weren't good in the outside zone blocking schemes, and weren't good at attacking the defensive fronts presented to them.   Yes, they ran an occasional jet sweep, but when the Bills do that stuff it looks like a gimmick they've inserted into an otherwise bland running game.  The style of the running game is not flashy or creative.

 

So much for scheme.  As for personnel, speed is the obvious missing characteristic.  McKenzie was their speed back, and he was just a gadget player.  Maybe the Bills should have tried running him out of the backfield, do quick pitches to him, and maybe even letting him hit it up the middle on misdirection plays.   Just as McDermott has been clear that the passing game has to be able to stretch the field vertically, the running game needs to stretch it horizontally, and Singletary and Moss don't have the speed to do that.  

 

And some of the problem has to be on the offensive line.  If Morse is going to be your center, he's fine for the pulling game, but power isn't his style.  He needs to be paired with a couple of quick but tough guards.  Feliciano is one.   Is Ford the other?   I don't know.  Are Dawkins and Williams the guys to get it done at tackle?  I don't know. 

 

Point is, everything in the running game has to get better. 

Shaw, I’m not as sure it was scheme. Singletary looked completely disinterested all season long. If the hole wasn’t there he simply ran head first into the pile. If he got to the corner he would just as soon pull up or run out of bounds rather than take anyone on. Not acceptable from your #1 running back! 

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Shaw, I’m not as sure it was scheme. Singletary looked completely disinterested all season long. If the hole wasn’t there he simply ran head first into the pile. If he got to the corner he would just as soon pull up or run out of bounds rather than take anyone on. Not acceptable from your #1 running back! 

Fair enough, although I'm not sure I agree.   Regardless, that's where speed comes into play.  When the hole isn't there, the principal way the back can get something out of nothing is to run away from trouble.  Singletary doesn't have the speed to do that.  Moss doesn't either, and although he's more powerful than Devin, he doesn't have the power simply to bulldoze on through.   

 

As I look back on the season, my sense is that except in the couple of games when the running game was working, the backs didn't have much room to run.   Allen didn't, either, on many designed runs.   That tells me the line wasn't getting it done.   Because the line seemed to be decent or better this year, in terms of talent, it leaves me with scheme.  

 

I think there are problems all around. 

[BillMafia716ix]

Draft some interior lineman and actually commit to having a running game. One of the problems with the Bills run game is that they never really committed to it and when they did run it, they maybe it obvious. Whenever Josh was under center, they ran it almost 80% of the time.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

What do I know?  I'm just a fan, but I'd offer this, Logic:

 

Scheme and personnel.  That's what football is about.  

 

I don't think the Bills have been creative enough in the running game.  I don't know anything about how to design a running game, but what the Bills did running this season looked pretty plain vanilla to me.  I think the Bills weren't good at misdirection, weren't good in the outside zone blocking schemes, and weren't good at attacking the defensive fronts presented to them.   Yes, they ran an occasional jet sweep, but when the Bills do that stuff it looks like a gimmick they've inserted into an otherwise bland running game.  The style of the running game is not flashy or creative.

 

Have you looked at some of the stuff where people do break down the run game?  (Linked upthread)

 

I put out for your consideration, stripped out of longer posts:

 When we made up our minds to run later in the season, we ran (Patriots, Broncos, Chargers, Steelers).  Why is this, if we lack well-designed plays?

 

38 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

So much for scheme.  As for personnel, speed is the obvious missing characteristic.  McKenzie was their speed back, and he was just a gadget player.  Maybe the Bills should have tried running him out of the backfield, do quick pitches to him, and maybe even letting him hit it up the middle on misdirection plays.   Just as McDermott has been clear that the passing game has to be able to stretch the field vertically, the running game needs to stretch it horizontally, and Singletary and Moss don't have the speed to do that. 

 

This is true, and it limits the design of the rushing plays.  Early after a game where we tried to rush and got stuffed, Daboll said something to the effect of "I need to design plays that the players can execute". 

 

When you lack an O-line that can power-block, and you lack a speed back who can stretch the field horizontally, it's kind of tough to be too creative with run game design.  Your vocabulary is limited.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Draft some interior lineman and actually commit to having a running game. One of the problems with the Bills run game is that they never really committed to it and when they did run it, they maybe it obvious. Whenever Josh was under center, they ran it almost 80% of the time.

 

Damned straight - we telegraphed the run because 70% of the time from shotgun, it was a pass play.  70% of the time from under center, it was a run play (stats I'm using seem to differ from yours. 234 out of 333 snaps under center.)

 

I think we need interior linemen in any event.  Feliciano is a good run blocker but I thought his pass protection was hit-and-miss.  Jones beat him like a drum.

Boettger came on well and was solid in the pass game, but I don't think he was a good run blocker.  It seems to me we ran a lot with Morse and Feliciano pulling.  That's fine, but it limits the vocabulary.

 

I think the quality of the line drove this - we didn't have a line that could pass-protect well enough under center.  Interestingly, when we did run out of shotgun, we were fairly successful (5.1 ypa from shotgun vs 3.5 from under center). 

 

But when we passed from under center, Josh's completion percentage was significantly lower - 56% vs 71%.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

My plan is to pay the draft capital to get a much better running back. 

 

Edit: I should add, thank you for the well-written and thoughtful response! 

 

I understand the desire, but I think a "much better running back" behind our current OL would be putting great wheels on a car with a limited engine.

 

Quote

As to revamping the offensive line?   We don't have the draft picks, trade chips or cap space to do very many things.  We do have a group that pass blocks well and Josh Allen. It would be a BAD idea to (never the less) try to turn this bunch into a bunch of bulldozers to change to a smashmouth style.

 

I'm not suggesting that we should change to a smashmouth style.  But I don't think we have good enough blocking, either pass or run, on the interior of the OL, and I think it hinders what we do both in the pass and the run game.  I mean, seriously, when your center's post game interview involves expressing fervent gratitude to the QB for getting them out of trouble in pass protection, What's Wrong With This Picture?  At guard, we have an UDFA who can pass block but not run block (he may improve), and a 4th round pick who can run block but not pass block.  And if Cody Ford is the answer, what was the Question?

 

So to me, upgrading the OL is the priority, especially since the OL features 3 FA while the RBs feature 2 guys on rookie deals.  Upgrade the OL and allow us to stop telegraphing the run as much by passing more from under center.  Practice and work on blocking more so we don't have so many run plays stuffed because 1 guy missed his blocks. 

 

You have excellent points here:

4 hours ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

Allen and our passing game was great for most of this year.  But the following type of move: countermove always happens.  We put out a very accurate passer and 2 great receivers and 1-2 good receivers.   What happened in the KC game is that KC basically doubled up on our best two, AND put good quality DB on the other two.  6 good DB and 5 in the box.  Plus, they put on a heavy pass rush, with 4 or 5 rushing and no gap control.  They shut down our offence.

 

Right now, most people agree that we should build our team around what is needed to beat KC, who are the biggest barrier to getting to the SB.  BUT do not forget that for Miami, the Pats and Jests, we are their first obstacle preventing them from getting to the playoffs and also, we play them twice a year.   Expect them to build their teams to take us on.  I will be interested to see how they draft DB's in 2021.  Miami has 4 picks in the first round and can easily change that into 5 + by dealing their #3 pick. 

 

With that expectation, we have to get "ahead of the curve" and their plans as well.  We are too one dimensional and they can work on stopping that.

 

A lot of teams won't have the hosses to do what KC did.  But we do have to prepare for other teams building to try.

 

We're just going to have to agree to disagree about the strategy of how to do this.

[RobbRiddick]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Damned straight - we telegraphed the run because 70% of the time from shotgun, it was a pass play.  70% of the time from under center, it was a run play (stats I'm using seem to differ from yours. 234 out of 333 snaps under center.)

 

I think we need interior linemen in any event.  Feliciano is a good run blocker but I thought his pass protection was hit-and-miss.  Jones beat him like a drum.

Boettger came on well and was solid in the pass game, but I don't think he was a good run blocker.  It seems to me we ran a lot with Morse and Feliciano pulling.  That's fine, but it limits the vocabulary.

 

I think the quality of the line drove this - we didn't have a line that could pass-protect well enough under center.  Interestingly, when we did run out of shotgun, we were fairly successful (5.1 ypa from shotgun vs 3.5 from under center). 

 

But when we passed from under center, Josh's completion percentage was significantly lower - 56% vs 71%.

 

I noticed this several times (the fact that they mostly ran when Josh was under center) and wondered if it was just something I was imagining. Good to see some stats on it. It's pretty bad when an idiot like me can see a running play coming from a mile away, so it must have been pretty easy for opposing defenses.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Have you looked at some of the stuff where people do break down the run game?  (Linked upthread)

 

I put out for your consideration, stripped out of longer posts:

 When we made up our minds to run later in the season, we ran (Patriots, Broncos, Chargers, Steelers).  Why is this, if we lack well-designed plays?

 

 

This is true, and it limits the design of the rushing plays.  Early after a game where we tried to rush and got stuffed, Daboll said something to the effect of "I need to design plays that the players can execute". 

 

When you lack an O-line that can power-block, and you lack a speed back who can stretch the field horizontally, it's kind of tough to be too creative with run game design.  Your vocabulary is limited.

 

 

That's really very enlightening for me.  Seriously, thanks.  

 

Here's a thought I've had for at least the last half of the season:   I wonder - I'll admit, I don't know, but I have at least a suspicion - I wonder if people have been putting Daboll on a pedestal higher than he deserves.  I think he's good, but he hasn't convinced me that he's truly creative.   I think he's shown that he can watch film of a defense and figure out what in his offense will work against that defense.  Where I wonder about his creativity is when he doesn't have anything in his offense that will work, can he tweak his offense to come up with an approach that will work.  And it's not enough to just create a gadget play or two; it's about bringing a new approach to the run game, from week to week if necessary, to make it work.  

 

Now, that discussion implicates exactly what you're talking about.   Maybe he's good at that creative part, but he can only create with the material he has - he only has the skills on the offensive line that are there and he only has the skills his backs offer him.   That limits what he can create.   It's been clear to me that McDermott's coaching philosophy is never to ask players to do things that they are simply physically unable to do.  

 

In a sense, this is the age-old problem.   Bad coaches always say, internally, "my players aren't good enough."   The best coaches figure out how to get the most of their players.   The GM and the HC have to figure out where the problem really is.   The Bills' approach is that EVERYONE has to get better, coaches and players.   Daboll didn't bring enough to the table this year, despite all the success he had, and McBeane have to decide whether he can get better or whether they need to replace him.   McBeane also have to figure out if the players can get better or whether McBeane need to replace them.  

 

One thing we know for sure:  McBeane are not going to sit on their hands.   Changes will be made, because they made it clear in their press conferences (as if we needed to hear it) that they aren't satisfied with what they had.  

[Ramza86]

Guards and a center.

[ndirish1978]

On 1/26/2021 at 3:03 AM, John from Riverside said:

The thing is the team is getting to the point where it is so well stocked with talent that being really should be going best player available and the best player available might end up being a running back

 

 

The DL is a wasteland devoid of talent beyond Hughes and Oliver. If we don't draft DL in the 1st I will be bummed. 

[BuffaLoko]

On 1/27/2021 at 10:08 AM, RyanC883 said:

the Bills will "be hunted."  Na.  The hunted teams are those that make the SB.  We need a running game/balanced offense, and a defense that can pressure the QB.  

 

On 1/25/2021 at 11:49 AM, Logic said:

Perhaps it's too early for some to start talking about next season. If that's the case for you, I understand.

As for me, I'm already excited about the potential of the 2021 Buffalo Bills.

It was quite clear watching last night's game -- and watching the entire season unfold, really -- that the Bills could DESPERATELY use a good run game. 

The question remains, though: Just HOW do you go about addressing the running game? Buffalo recently spent third round picks on Singletary and Moss. I doubt they're ready to give up on either of them, nor should they. The Bills usually only dress three running backs on game day, with the third being a special teams contributor. Neither Singletary nor Moss contribute much on special teams.

So what do you do?

Do you draft another running back? If so, you'd probably better draft one earlier than round three. If Singletary and Moss aren't getting it done, what makes you think another third round or later running back will?

Are you willing to part with such premium draft capital for a running back? Do you focus on replacing a guard or two, or the center? What do you do? 

Knowing how aggressively Beane attacks roster weaknesses, and how much McDermott values the run game, I trust that Buffalo will actively seek to address this problem. But in the meantime, how do YOU suggest we go about it? This question does not seem to have any easy answers.

 

I guess I wouldn´t add more options to the many you laid out here, however I´d like to ask, did you left FA RB out as an option? just because there is no good FA options that we know , or because you simply dont trust thta route? I see what TBY achieved with L Fournete  and think it worked wonders, despite the doubts on his character flaws. 

[Big Blitz]

Yea I love Feliciano but I can't help but think that him and Ike made it look better because Winters and Ford were so terrible.  

 

Those 2 were playing as two of the worst guards in the league.  

 

I'm not ruling out upgrading there.  But when I think of the money it's probably not going to happen.     

 

And when I want to bail on Williams I can't because I keep thinking of the job he did on Watt.  

 

 

When you ran the ball as inconsistently as we did it can't all be the RBs.  Even tho we definitely need an upgrade there 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, RobbRiddick said:

I noticed this several times (the fact that they mostly ran when Josh was under center) and wondered if it was just something I was imagining. Good to see some stats on it. It's pretty bad when an idiot like me can see a running play coming from a mile away, so it must have been pretty easy for opposing defenses.

 

I'm a cheapskate and only sort through the free stats stuff like pro-football-reference and Sharp football stats.

 

I expect that to professionals who comb stuff out different ways, there are places where our run or pass tendencies become even more obvious.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Yea I love Feliciano but I can't help but think that him and Ike made it look better because Winters and Ford were so terrible.  

Those 2 were playing as two of the worst guards in the league.  

I'm not ruling out upgrading there.  But when I think of the money it's probably not going to happen.     

And when I want to bail on Williams I can't because I keep thinking of the job he did on Watt.  

When you ran the ball as inconsistently as we did it can't all be the RBs.  Even tho we definitely need an upgrade there 

 

That's my reading of the "tea leaves" from Beane and McDermott's pressers.  I think we need to practice and work on run blocking more.  I also think we need upgrades on the line and at RB.  I don't really think there can be disputes there.  The only question is really priorities.  Some people think top priority to drafting an RB.  Some people (me) think top priority to improving the line.

 

Feliciano, I think, said himself he didn't feel he was protecting well this year.  The guy had an off season that was very limited by surgery and perhaps wasn't able to get all the supervised rehab he would have liked when the NFL shut facilities.  Then he had a torn pec that he came back from 3-4 weeks earlier than he could have.  I think he's one of the "leaders in the building", so I'd like to have him back and give him the benefit of the doubt that he'll be driven to improve.  It will depend upon his market, I expect. 

 

If we want to upgrade, can we count on Ford and Boettger holding down those spots?  Boettger came on well in his 3rd year as a pass blocker.  But run blocking, he could use ketchup.  And I'm still at "if Ford is the answer, what is the question?"

 

I hope the NFL opens up the cap because without doing so, it's gonna be hell, but that will work both ways.

 

 

[Nextmanup]

On 1/25/2021 at 12:51 PM, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

3 new interior O-Lineman, New RB and the running game coordinator from the 49ers. That should improve our running game dramatically. Moss is the only keeper on our current depth chart.

Luckily, McDermott, Beane, and the people around them seem to have learned, some time in the last year or so, that what you outline is not how you win football games in the NFL in the 21st century.

I have every faith they will continue to focus on an improved, pass-heavy offense.

 

Our problem was not that the run game was bad, it was that the passing game wasn't good enough.

 

How much running did KC do against us in the championship game?  Not much, right?

 

Why didn't that hurt THEM?

 

 

[Nihilarian]

Build a better offensive line.

 

It all starts up front with top talent and then actually call run plays to build that run game. One or two run calls a series won't do it. 

 

Wanna pass? Sure, pass to get a lead and then work the run game to wear out the defense and eat the clock.

[Big Blitz]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's my reading of the "tea leaves" from Beane and McDermott's pressers.  I think we need to practice and work on run blocking more.  I also think we need upgrades on the line and at RB.  I don't really think there can be disputes there.  The only question is really priorities.  Some people think top priority to drafting an RB.  Some people (me) think top priority to improving the line.

 

Feliciano, I think, said himself he didn't feel he was protecting well this year.  The guy had an off season that was very limited by surgery and perhaps wasn't able to get all the supervised rehab he would have liked when the NFL shut facilities.  Then he had a torn pec that he came back from 3-4 weeks earlier than he could have.  I think he's one of the "leaders in the building", so I'd like to have him back and give him the benefit of the doubt that he'll be driven to improve.  It will depend upon his market, I expect. 

 

If we want to upgrade, can we count on Ford and Boettger holding down those spots?  Boettger came on well in his 3rd year as a pass blocker.  But run blocking, he could use ketchup.  And I'm still at "if Ford is the answer, what is the question?"

 

I hope the NFL opens up the cap because without doing so, it's gonna be hell, but that will work both ways.

 

 

 

 

Agreed on Ike.  

 

For me if the upgrade (thru draft or UFA) if made should be here and could push this line into a top 10 oline.  

 

Ike, Ford compete for spots but at minimum provide depth.  They both can obviously still develop and fortify things better but if I'm Beane and there is someone to bring in to upgrade G I'm trying to make it happen.  

 

My priorities:

 

1. DL - at least 2 new starters.  

2A. RB - Need more 

2B. OG - one 

3. DBs - more physical better support in run D

[WideNine]

We have had some limitations on what we can do. Mitch, although an exceptional technician who can block in space with upper tier mobility for a center, was rarely pulled in our offense this year and is not a straight-ahead mauler.

 

Some of that is because of the defensive fronts we face are better challenged (in theory) by straight-forward ISO and double team combination blocks.

 

If Mitch or the guards pull, the remaining guys usually are not able to hold up against the interior DTs which usually results in a jail break before the play can develop.

 

If they try straight-forward blocking they are not strong enough to get the push needed to move interior DL men off their spot which means your runs between the tackles hit a wall of bodies. 

 

Our longest runs have often been 2nd and 3rd efforts by our RBs to bounce it outside or hit another gap.

 

Stretch runs usually play into the sideline to sideline speed on the field and are generally less successful.

 

So to be more successful I think we need better straight forward blocking from guard to guard. Blocking that is capable of moving bodies and winning more of their assignments against DTs and NTs.

 

Is that different personnel, more coaching up on technique, or better schemes...it all should be on the table.

 

We are also well-scouted and I do see teams cheating towards run on plays where we run, so something in our personnel, alignment, or the leverage of our player pre-snap stances may be giving those runs away too often.

 

Running backs that hit the hole quickly with authority would help too. Dancing behind the line is fairly doomed with the reactive speed on the field these days.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by WideNine

[HOUSE]

The only problem I see is McD and Daboll are not committed to the running game.

 

Sure, a little more speed & size would help .................................WITH BLOCKING FOR JOSH ALLEN

 

Buffalo is the only team in the league that has a "Keep the Defense honest running game"

 

 

.

Edited January 29, 2021 by HOUSE