Tiberius Posted April 29, 2021 Author Posted April 29, 2021 1 minute ago, RochesterRob said: True. It might help dampen egos that could sorely use some kind of deflation. The point was it takes a lot of effort to grow vegetables if mechanization and chemicals are taken out of the process. I doubt many would be down for daily weeding including getting down on one's knees and hands for many weeks consecutive to do so. My mom grew up in rural Kentucky and the family grew vegetables. She said some families just wouldn't, even though they were hungry. Crazy
B-Man Posted April 29, 2021 Posted April 29, 2021 Everyday products are about to get more expensive, companies warn: Plastic, paper, sugar, grain and other commodities are all getting more expensive as demand outpaces supply. https://www.wbir.com/article/news/nation-world/commodity-price-hikes/507-8080b2ed-6364-406e-9a1f-6dba44e1d591
Chef Jim Posted April 29, 2021 Posted April 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Tiberius said: My mom grew up in rural Kentucky and the family grew vegetables. She said some families just wouldn't, even though they were hungry. Crazy Serious question Tibs. What does your mom think about the "war on beef" discussion?
SoCal Deek Posted April 29, 2021 Posted April 29, 2021 4 hours ago, Tiberius said: ----- 🕺<----Sleepy joe? The stock market is set to close out President Biden’s first 100 days in office on Thursday with its best start to a presidential term since the days of Franklin D. Roosevelt. The S&P 500 has risen 10% since Mr. Biden’s Jan. 20 inauguration. The index is on course for its strongest performance since the start of Mr. Roosevelt’s first term in 1933, when it surged 80% after a spectacular crash in the Great Depression, according to a Dow Jones Market Data analysis. By comparison, the S&P 500 rose 5.3% in the first 100 days of President Donald Trump’s term in early 2017 and on average has gained 3.2% over that period in presidential terms since Herbert Hoover’s in 1929. Investors say it is no surprise that bountiful government spending, increasing Covid-19 vaccinations, growing faith in the economic reopening and continued support from the Federal Reserve have powered the latest leg up in the stock market. https://www.wsj.com/articles/stocks-are-off-to-best-start-to-a-presidential-term-since-great-depression-11619688780 So I guess since Trump developed the vaccine, he gets credit for that and the re-opening that resulted from it, and of course Biden gets credit for increasing government spending. A win-win? 1
Chef Jim Posted April 29, 2021 Posted April 29, 2021 6 hours ago, Tiberius said: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/04/29/first-quarter-gdp-growth/ Go Joe!!! Obviously the country has confidence in his leadership and the economy shows it. So based on these metrics the country had confidence in Trump's leadership as well. Can we quote you based on this logic? 1
Tiberius Posted April 29, 2021 Author Posted April 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Chef Jim said: So based on these metrics the country had confidence in Trump's leadership as well. Can we quote you based on this logic? I believe he conned people into believing he was good for business, but who cares? The voters showed him the door?
Chef Jim Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 47 minutes ago, Tiberius said: I believe he conned people into believing he was good for business, but who cares? The voters showed him the door? But the100 day Biden Bull is real? Oookay
ComradeKayAdams Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 21 hours ago, Tiberius said: If people had to kill the animals themselves a lot more people would be vegetarians Thank you, Tibsy. It means a lot to me for you to acknowledge this point. I thought about posting a graphic image from an abattoir (how very Upton Sinclair of me!) to really drive home my message, but a simple Mahatma Gandhi quote is probably more appropriate for TBD: “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” People should do their own internet searches on images from American meat processing plants and then juxtapose them with images from, say, the Yulin Lychee and Dog Meat Festival. 21 hours ago, RochesterRob said: If people had to grow their own vegetables a lot more would be gatherers or hunters. This is a faulty comparison. Choosing not to grow one’s own vegetables because of the labor difficulty and labor specialization is not equivalent to choosing not to kill one’s own food. The added ethical quandary with the latter is the obvious distinction. 20 hours ago, Chef Jim said: So you're pushing a Vegan lifestyle all the while saying killing animals for caloric survival is ok? Am I confused or are you? I suggest you learn the history of meat consumption and take a few cooking classes. Then you'll understand why animal parts are seasoned and cooked before consuming. If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Point? I think you may be confused with what I meant by the “caloric survival” phrase. I’m referring to Robinson Crusoe-esque “eat meat or starve” situations. These would include living in American food desert communities or not being able to go fully vegan due to personal financial hardship. The ethos of veganism is minimizing the suffering of all sentient beings on this planet. Note that I said “minimizing” and not “eliminating,” which is a manifest impossibility. You are unlikely to find any self-identifying vegans who find it reasonable to expect someone else to starve to death rather than to eat meat. From a health and safety perspective, I fully understand the reasons why we cook and season meat. I’m not personally interested in learning about the other culinary details. I have a pretty good understanding of the history of meat consumption, but nothing special. I dunno…send me some links or tell me which articles/books you recommend I read on this subject? Keep in mind that I was referring to the period in human history WAY before the Agricultural Revolution when I mentioned the scientific evidence for our predominantly herbivorous past. Also keep in mind that conclusive scientific results on this sub-topic wouldn’t affect the core vegan message. Evolution is eternally dynamic. We can always choose to “evolve” into pure vegans since we know that modern humans already thrive with a properly planned vegan diet. By the way, you might find Dan Buettner’s work on Blue Zones interesting. See: “The Secrets of a Long Life,” National Geographic, November 2005. Your reply to Tibsy was a non sequitur. Please see my response to RochesterRob above.
Chef Jim Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said: I think you may be confused with what I meant by the “caloric survival” phrase. I’m referring to Robinson Crusoe-esque “eat meat or starve” situations. These would include living in American food desert communities or not being able to go fully vegan due to personal financial hardship. The ethos of veganism is minimizing the suffering of all sentient beings on this planet. Note that I said “minimizing” and not “eliminating,” which is a manifest impossibility. You are unlikely to find any self-identifying vegans who find it reasonable to expect someone else to starve to death rather than to eat meat. From a health and safety perspective, I fully understand the reasons why we cook and season meat. I’m not personally interested in learning about the other culinary details. I have a pretty good understanding of the history of meat consumption, but nothing special. I dunno…send me some links or tell me which articles/books you recommend I read on this subject? Keep in mind that I was referring to the period in human history WAY before the Agricultural Revolution when I mentioned the scientific evidence for our predominantly herbivorous past. Also keep in mind that conclusive scientific results on this sub-topic wouldn’t affect the core vegan message. Evolution is eternally dynamic. We can always choose to “evolve” into pure vegans since we know that modern humans already thrive with a properly planned vegan diet. By the way, you might find Dan Buettner’s work on Blue Zones interesting. See: “The Secrets of a Long Life,” National Geographic, November 2005. Your reply to Tibsy was a non sequitur. Please see my response to RochesterRob above. I have to ask. I never understood the vegan lifestyle. I get the health benefits of it even though some vegans I know look really unhealthy. I have to ask how is using the natural event of chickens laying eggs or goats and cows giving milk cause them suffering? Have you ever witnessed the enthusiasm of a herd of goats or cows when it's time to be milked? My personal opinion? Vegetarian = Good. Vegan = ***** weird. Not sure if you were being facetious regarding me sending you links. I've learned that having a conversation regarding the weirdness of veganism is a waste. It's a cult almost. LOL
RochesterRob Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 4 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said: Thank you, Tibsy. It means a lot to me for you to acknowledge this point. I thought about posting a graphic image from an abattoir (how very Upton Sinclair of me!) to really drive home my message, but a simple Mahatma Gandhi quote is probably more appropriate for TBD: “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” People should do their own internet searches on images from American meat processing plants and then juxtapose them with images from, say, the Yulin Lychee and Dog Meat Festival. This is a faulty comparison. Choosing not to grow one’s own vegetables because of the labor difficulty and labor specialization is not equivalent to choosing not to kill one’s own food. The added ethical quandary with the latter is the obvious distinction. I think you may be confused with what I meant by the “caloric survival” phrase. I’m referring to Robinson Crusoe-esque “eat meat or starve” situations. These would include living in American food desert communities or not being able to go fully vegan due to personal financial hardship. The ethos of veganism is minimizing the suffering of all sentient beings on this planet. Note that I said “minimizing” and not “eliminating,” which is a manifest impossibility. You are unlikely to find any self-identifying vegans who find it reasonable to expect someone else to starve to death rather than to eat meat. From a health and safety perspective, I fully understand the reasons why we cook and season meat. I’m not personally interested in learning about the other culinary details. I have a pretty good understanding of the history of meat consumption, but nothing special. I dunno…send me some links or tell me which articles/books you recommend I read on this subject? Keep in mind that I was referring to the period in human history WAY before the Agricultural Revolution when I mentioned the scientific evidence for our predominantly herbivorous past. Also keep in mind that conclusive scientific results on this sub-topic wouldn’t affect the core vegan message. Evolution is eternally dynamic. We can always choose to “evolve” into pure vegans since we know that modern humans already thrive with a properly planned vegan diet. By the way, you might find Dan Buettner’s work on Blue Zones interesting. See: “The Secrets of a Long Life,” National Geographic, November 2005. Your reply to Tibsy was a non sequitur. Please see my response to RochesterRob above. Tiberius said it himself when he admitted that those in some states (in this case Kentucky) would rather shoot critters for viddles than weed plus tend a garden. This in an era when it most definitely was not a matter of eating meat or starving. This mentality is very evident in other states including NY. If I had to guess most people are still very primal when it comes to food. Not sure what else matters in this matter. The rest of your statement may be your principles but not those of most human beings. But, yes, there are certainly issues with modern meat distribution. Wide spread slaughter of mammals was rather isolated prior to the 20th Century. Most people had poultry as a primary meat source in their diet. Even in the 20th Century many on a weekly basis had poultry (my family and neighbors) and fish (Catholic tradition). My diet is born out of my parents' era in that red meat is not on the table everyday.
ComradeKayAdams Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 10 hours ago, Chef Jim said: I have to ask. I never understood the vegan lifestyle. I get the health benefits of it even though some vegans I know look really unhealthy. I have to ask how is using the natural event of chickens laying eggs or goats and cows giving milk cause them suffering? Have you ever witnessed the enthusiasm of a herd of goats or cows when it's time to be milked? My personal opinion? Vegetarian = Good. Vegan = ***** weird. Not sure if you were being facetious regarding me sending you links. I've learned that having a conversation regarding the weirdness of veganism is a waste. It's a cult almost. LOL I wasn’t actually being facetious, though my wording did admittedly make it look like I was. If you send me links on meat consumption history, I’ll put them in my lengthy reading queue and will get to them by this summer. If you’re looking specifically to change my mind about veganism, however, that’s highly unlikely to happen at this point in my life. Is that cult-like thinking? No, it’s just a set of core ethical principles I have that are even stronger than all of my political ones (social democracy, environmentalism, non-interventionism). The unhealthy-looking vegans you see are most likely the ones who didn’t plan their diet responsibly. Nothing but Pepsi and Oreos is a vegan diet, after all! Lots of women also use veganism to mask eating disorders so that they can justify their various food restrictions. Part of what makes the dairy and egg industries cruel is what happens to the males. Chick culling is the mass murder of all the non-profitable ones that don’t lay eggs. Male calves are quickly sold to meat processing companies, so supporting the dairy industry is still de facto supporting the beef industry. In factory farms, the living conditions are atrocious. With dairy, the additional cruelty comes from the milking machines, the forcible impregnations, and the immediate removal of the calves from their mothers. Also, consider that all of these animals we exploit for food have been carefully bred over generations to maximize profit at the expense of their own physical mechanical comfort and physiological well-being. 8 hours ago, RochesterRob said: Tiberius said it himself when he admitted that those in some states (in this case Kentucky) would rather shoot critters for viddles than weed plus tend a garden. This in an era when it most definitely was not a matter of eating meat or starving. This mentality is very evident in other states including NY. If I had to guess most people are still very primal when it comes to food. Not sure what else matters in this matter. The rest of your statement may be your principles but not those of most human beings. But, yes, there are certainly issues with modern meat distribution. Wide spread slaughter of mammals was rather isolated prior to the 20th Century. Most people had poultry as a primary meat source in their diet. Even in the 20th Century many on a weekly basis had poultry (my family and neighbors) and fish (Catholic tradition). My diet is born out of my parents' era in that red meat is not on the table everyday. Fair enough. I suppose I’ll conclude by recommending everyone watch Earthlings, a 90-minute documentary available for free on YouTube (it’s NSFW). If you can sit through all of it and still have no motivation to change your animal product consumption, then so be it. Vegan activism is still in the stages of promoting fully voluntary personal choices (well, excluding some of the peripheral animal cruelty laws plus any tax implementations to address negative environmental externalities). Once affordable lab-grown meat is ready, we can begin pushing for full legal abolition and concurrent transition programs for economically displaced workers in the meat/dairy industries.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 On 4/29/2021 at 10:35 AM, Tiberius said: If people had to kill the animals themselves a lot more people would be vegetarians If people had to grow farm and harvest their own vegetables and protect that farmland themselves, more people would just eat meat. 1
RochesterRob Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 47 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said: I wasn’t actually being facetious, though my wording did admittedly make it look like I was. If you send me links on meat consumption history, I’ll put them in my lengthy reading queue and will get to them by this summer. If you’re looking specifically to change my mind about veganism, however, that’s highly unlikely to happen at this point in my life. Is that cult-like thinking? No, it’s just a set of core ethical principles I have that are even stronger than all of my political ones (social democracy, environmentalism, non-interventionism). The unhealthy-looking vegans you see are most likely the ones who didn’t plan their diet responsibly. Nothing but Pepsi and Oreos is a vegan diet, after all! Lots of women also use veganism to mask eating disorders so that they can justify their various food restrictions. Part of what makes the dairy and egg industries cruel is what happens to the males. Chick culling is the mass murder of all the non-profitable ones that don’t lay eggs. Male calves are quickly sold to meat processing companies, so supporting the dairy industry is still de facto supporting the beef industry. In factory farms, the living conditions are atrocious. With dairy, the additional cruelty comes from the milking machines, the forcible impregnations, and the immediate removal of the calves from their mothers. Also, consider that all of these animals we exploit for food have been carefully bred over generations to maximize profit at the expense of their own physical mechanical comfort and physiological well-being. Fair enough. I suppose I’ll conclude by recommending everyone watch Earthlings, a 90-minute documentary available for free on YouTube (it’s NSFW). If you can sit through all of it and still have no motivation to change your animal product consumption, then so be it. Vegan activism is still in the stages of promoting fully voluntary personal choices (well, excluding some of the peripheral animal cruelty laws plus any tax implementations to address negative environmental externalities). Once affordable lab-grown meat is ready, we can begin pushing for full legal abolition and concurrent transition programs for economically displaced workers in the meat/dairy industries. Change is the one constant with humanity. As I said large volume slaughter of mammals is a rather recent phenomenon. It would not surprise me to see that change within the next 50 years. I don't fear such a change which may surprise you. As to male calves that was once accurate but sexed ***** has been around for quite a while now so it is not the issue it once was. As to impregnations that would happen in nature as the males would seek out the females that were in heat. As to discomfort that is seldom true. Can people be cruel to cows? Yes, but that happens on a very extremely remote basis in this day and age. Animals placed under stress do not do well in terms of production. Full legal abortion? As to workers there is already a domino effect in place due to the pandemic. The garage I dealt with to keep my vehicles running plus pass NYS inspection is up for sale because business was far too erratic during that time. Prepping a vehicle for inspection was a can that many kicked down the road when the budgets of many people suddenly could not cover every base every month. The current garage I use has an owner that benefitted from unusual circumstances (inherited money) to keep himself afloat during that time. Not saying that he did not layoff some staff as his business also went into a steep decline but he did not owe the bank on assets unlike the previous guy. These are Americans that most politicians do not see as they exist on what we historically called Main Street in the economic vernacular. Large in numbers but small to the politicians that are only concerned about Wall Street or the extremely poor. The pain on Main Street in my mind is just starting to flare up.
Chef Jim Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 11 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said: I wasn’t actually being facetious, though my wording did admittedly make it look like I was. If you send me links on meat consumption history, I’ll put them in my lengthy reading queue and will get to them by this summer. If you’re looking specifically to change my mind about veganism, however, that’s highly unlikely to happen at this point in my life. Is that cult-like thinking? No, it’s just a set of core ethical principles I have that are even stronger than all of my political ones (social democracy, environmentalism, non-interventionism). The unhealthy-looking vegans you see are most likely the ones who didn’t plan their diet responsibly. Nothing but Pepsi and Oreos is a vegan diet, after all! Lots of women also use veganism to mask eating disorders so that they can justify their various food restrictions. Part of what makes the dairy and egg industries cruel is what happens to the males. Chick culling is the mass murder of all the non-profitable ones that don’t lay eggs. Male calves are quickly sold to meat processing companies, so supporting the dairy industry is still de facto supporting the beef industry. In factory farms, the living conditions are atrocious. With dairy, the additional cruelty comes from the milking machines, the forcible impregnations, and the immediate removal of the calves from their mothers. Also, consider that all of these animals we exploit for food have been carefully bred over generations to maximize profit at the expense of their own physical mechanical comfort and physiological well- Why would I waste my time giving you reading materials that you a) likely won’t read and b) won’t change your mind and that’s ok. There are plenty of humanely run meat and dairy farms. I’d love to chat further however I need to run. It’s time for breakfast. I’m having scrambled chicken embryos ripped from their mother with some cured and smoked dead pig bellies and some juice ripped from reproductive organs from some California trees. Yum!
B-Man Posted May 3, 2021 Posted May 3, 2021 https://fee.org/articles/the-costs-are-just-up-up-up-warren-buffett-issues-grave-warning-about-inflation/ ‘The Costs Are Just Up, Up, Up:’ Warren Buffett Issues Grave Warning About Inflation. Unexpectedly.
BillStime Posted May 4, 2021 Posted May 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, B-Man said: If only Trump took Covid seriously. 2
Boatdrinks Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 On 4/30/2021 at 7:46 AM, ComradeKayAdams said: Thank you, Tibsy. It means a lot to me for you to acknowledge this point. I thought about posting a graphic image from an abattoir (how very Upton Sinclair of me!) to really drive home my message, but a simple Mahatma Gandhi quote is probably more appropriate for TBD: “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” People should do their own internet searches on images from American meat processing plants and then juxtapose them with images from, say, the Yulin Lychee and Dog Meat Festival. This is a faulty comparison. Choosing not to grow one’s own vegetables because of the labor difficulty and labor specialization is not equivalent to choosing not to kill one’s own food. The added ethical quandary with the latter is the obvious distinction. I think you may be confused with what I meant by the “caloric survival” phrase. I’m referring to Robinson Crusoe-esque “eat meat or starve” situations. These would include living in American food desert communities or not being able to go fully vegan due to personal financial hardship. The ethos of veganism is minimizing the suffering of all sentient beings on this planet. Note that I said “minimizing” and not “eliminating,” which is a manifest impossibility. You are unlikely to find any self-identifying vegans who find it reasonable to expect someone else to starve to death rather than to eat meat. From a health and safety perspective, I fully understand the reasons why we cook and season meat. I’m not personally interested in learning about the other culinary details. I have a pretty good understanding of the history of meat consumption, but nothing special. I dunno…send me some links or tell me which articles/books you recommend I read on this subject? Keep in mind that I was referring to the period in human history WAY before the Agricultural Revolution when I mentioned the scientific evidence for our predominantly herbivorous past. Also keep in mind that conclusive scientific results on this sub-topic wouldn’t affect the core vegan message. Evolution is eternally dynamic. We can always choose to “evolve” into pure vegans since we know that modern humans already thrive with a properly planned vegan diet. By the way, you might find Dan Buettner’s work on Blue Zones interesting. See: “The Secrets of a Long Life,” National Geographic, November 2005. Your reply to Tibsy was a non sequitur. Please see my response to RochesterRob above. Blah, blah, blah. Eating is much more satisfying when the entree is meat based. Besides, if we weren’t supposed to eat animals, why’d they make em out of meat ?
B-Man Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 IF YOU PAY PEOPLE NOT TO WORK, MANY WILL CHOOSE NOT TO WORK: Montana governor ends extra unemployment payments, citing worker shortage. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/montana-governor-ends-extra-unemployment-payments-citing-worker-shortage-n1266346 1
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