mannc Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 1 hour ago, thenorthremembers said: A lot of this stuff is hyperbole to try and fill time. To "catch" Mahomes, Josh is going to have to show this wasnt a one year wonder type of thing. He will also need a ring and an MVP, which is easier said than done. Beat the Chiefs this weekend and you can start to talk about it, but before then I dont think this should even be a discussion. You're missing the point. No one is saying Josh Allen has had a better career than Mahomes to this point; he hasn't won a Super Bowl and he hasn't been league MVP, and this is only JA's first truly outstanding season. They are saying that, right now, Josh Allen might be a better, more dynamic QB. Having watched Allen the past two months, I have to say I think it's a real possibility. Allen is doing things that no other QB can do, including Mahomes, and has been almost impossible to defend. We'll learn more on Sunday, but my money is on Josh Allen. 3 1
NewEra Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 1 hour ago, thenorthremembers said: A lot of this stuff is hyperbole to try and fill time. To "catch" Mahomes, Josh is going to have to show this wasnt a one year wonder type of thing. He will also need a ring and an MVP, which is easier said than done. Beat the Chiefs this weekend and you can start to talk about it, but before then I dont think this should even be a discussion. He just needs a ring. MVP don’t mean jack
YoloinOhio Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Logic said: It may be a popular take among Bills fans, but not so much among the national media. There may be one or two out there, like Hasselbeck, but I would venture to guess that the vast majority of national media and NFL fans would find this to be a controversial or laughable take. Not at all. Of course, I think some people are looking at it differently like equating it to catching up on SB wins, team success, and including previous years. Most look at it as where the two are today in terms of stepping on the field and performing as a QB. Mahomes would still be 1st drafted in a re-draft today but the gap is closing and smaller than ever. It’s a fluid situation obviously that will continue to change. Edited January 22, 2021 by YoloinOhio 1
Saxum Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 50 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Some seem to forget Bills had the worst WR's in the league Allen's rookie year. Constant drops and just had nothing to work with. Now I'm not saying he would have had a great season like PM did, but that definitely had a huge impact. Only so much a man can do with no help In Allen's first year he was true rookie with experienced QB to learn from. His HC was a first time HC with defense background. PM was on the bench first year watching a #1 pick QB for 15 games. His HC (who IMO is better OC than HC) was very experienced in offense play calls. Team he was playing for had a winning record for many seasons. If PM was playing for JEST then you could make a reasonable comparison. 1
Inigo Montoya Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 Three points to the posts above. I don't think the standard to say Josh is better than Mahomes is that Josh has to beat Mahomes and win a Super Bowl and League MVP. Football is still a team sport and if the Josh plays lights out this weekend but the Bills still lose because Singletary fumbles on the goal line or the DB's give up another last second Hail Mary, is that on Josh Allen? I can look at both Mahomes and Allen play, and evaluate their skill sets and how they bring it in crunch time and compare the two QBs abilities and make a judgement about who is better. I do agree that Josh needs to be consistent and continue to play at a high level next year and beyond. No argument from me on that one. I don't think the WR corps is the reason Josh is in the MVP conversation this year. Josh has become a better QB by busting his butt during the off season. Yes, Diggs is amazing and he has helped Josh, but show me all the circus catches from Diggs this year on bad balls that Josh threw. I can't think of many. Josh is reading defenses better, adjusting protection better, and making better throws all over the field. He is manipulating DBs with pump fakes and effectively looking them off coverage. He isn't playing Hero Ball anymore. His pocket awareness has improved and he is moving in the pocket and keeping plays alive and not running at the first sign of pressure. All of these things are a result of Josh Allen working on his craft. Diggs, Beasley, Brown, and Gabe are fantastic, but they are not the reason Josh is throwing the ball better. 2 1
PrimeTime101 Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Jpsredemption said: Honestly as much as I love Allen I think this Is absolutely ridiculous. Mahomes has played better football than anyone in the history of the game over a 3 year span. His first 3 as a starter. Pump the breaks. I'm not going to pump on the breaks nor am I going to even tap the breaks and here is why.... Mahomes had one full year to sit and learn Mahomes joined a team with pieces already around him No one cares about what Mahomes DID! its what the player is doing NOW! There are stats that Mahomes is better and stats that Allen is better. Like it or not from the last 4 games through season and now into the playoffs Mahomes has struggled where Allen has put up double digit wins. Look I am not saying he is 100% as good or better yet but I am not pumping the breaks. We have seen Mahomes Ceiling yet and I feel Josh Allen's is just as high if not higher. No no no... I am not touching the breaks.. Right now Josh is Cage in gone in 60 seconds... about to hit that turbo button and say bye bye 1
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, Big Blitz said: The difference between the 2 is Travis Kelce. This. It's not a coincidence that Allen became elite in his very first season playing with Diggs. Mahomes has played his entire career with two pass catchers as elite as Diggs. Those saying that Allen needs to repeat his elite season next year. I'd say: 1. True. 2. Is there anyway he doesn't? He's a lock for a 35-40+ total TD and 4,500+ yard season again. I know there is some fear of "one year wonders" like Wentz and Goff but I just don't see that happening with Allen. Not with the consistent improvement he's shown since day one and the elite physical traits he has. 2 hours ago, Success said: Love Mahomes' game, but I think Allen has the higher ceiling, and he's just better for Buffalo. That higher ceiling is the key. It's why there is whispering among GM's that they would take Allen over Mahomes today, even with just one elite season to Mahomes three. This season Allen is playing pretty much exactly like Mahomes, a taller, faster and stronger Mahomes. 1
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, Jpsredemption said: Honestly as much as I love Allen I think this Is absolutely ridiculous. Mahomes has played better football than anyone in the history of the game over a 3 year span. His first 3 as a starter. Pump the breaks. He's had two all-pro caliber receivers on his roster since day 1. Allen had. Andre Holmes, Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster, Zay Jones and Charles Clay his first year. And the media thought he was one of the worst passing QB's ever. Second year, Allen's numbers improve greatly but getting rid of all those guys and adding more respectable receivers like Brown and Beasley. Not elite but good receivers. Third year, the Bills go out and get Allen an elite receiver in Diggs. And big surprise, with Diggs, Brown and Beasley Allen becomes elite. Allen has been trending in the right direction since day 1. He's physically more gifted than Mahomes and he appears to be just as football smart. 1
stevewin Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 I thought Simms brought up a good point related to how Mahomes seems to almost be threatened in a way by Allen - I've seen where Mahomes seems to bristle when Josh is brought up to him re: the longest ball thing - it doesn't seem he's happy that Josh has wedged his way into the strongest arm discussion that he used to "own". Also - it may just be a QB class thing, but the love fest that Allen has with Darnold and Jackson etc certainly doesn't translate to Mahomes IMO.
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Some seem to forget Bills had the worst WR's in the league Allen's rookie year. Constant drops and just had nothing to work with. Now I'm not saying he would have had a great season like PM did, but that definitely had a huge impact. Only so much a man can do with no help It's funny too, to a lot of people's surprises, Brown, Beasley and Diggs all had career years with Allen as their QB. So as much as they have helped Allen, the same could be said of Allen helping their careers. 1
Buffalo Ballin Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 Why catch up to Mahomes when Allen can straight up beat him this Sunday for the AFC Title?
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said: How cool is it to even have this discussion? It reminds me of the Brady/Manning debate. Either way, you're set for 15 years. I'll just come out and say it: IF Allen plays at this level for a decade the Bills winning just 1 super Bowl would be a disappointment. If that sounds crazy, put it this way: If in 2031 Mahomes has just 1 ring that would be considered a disappointment. That would be called the Aaron Rodgers.
Magox Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 I don't want to make excuses for the Bills but there are many QB's who lost their first Conference championship game to then go on to win the Super Bowl. Patrick Mahomes is one of those people.
The Wiz Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, stevewin said: Mahomes completion percentage is less than Allen's so he has to work on his accuracy issues to catch Allen What's interesting is I saw Allen at 3 or 4th in comp % and Mahomes at 16th but in passer ratings they are 4th and 5th I think. Good old passer rating.
Inigo Montoya Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: He's had two all-pro caliber receivers on his roster since day 1. Allen had. Andre Holmes, Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster, Zay Jones and Charles Clay his first year. And the media thought he was one of the worst passing QB's ever. Second year, Allen's numbers improve greatly but getting rid of all those guys and adding more respectable receivers like Brown and Beasley. Not elite but good receivers. Third year, the Bills go out and get Allen an elite receiver in Diggs. And big surprise, with Diggs, Brown and Beasley Allen becomes elite. Allen has been trending in the right direction since day 1. He's physically more gifted than Mahomes and he appears to be just as football smart. I just disagree that the WR corps is responsible for Allen playing so much better this year. Has the WR corps helped Allen? Of course it has, but that is not the first, second, or third reason reason he is playing at an elite level. I am going to list a series of improvements Josh has made and you tell me which ones Diggs, Beasley, Brown and Davis can take credit for; A. No more Hero Ball. B. Changing into the right play at the line of scrimmage. C. Adjusting protection at the line of scrimmage. D. Looking off safeties and pump faking DBs to get the WR open. E. Developing touch on his throws, not every throw is a 100 mph rope now. F. Amazing pocket awareness, shifting and moving in the pocket to keep plays alive G. Not running as soon as pressure arrives but keeping his eyes down field and throwing strikes. H. Dramatic improvement on throws when on the run to his left and right. I. Went from near worst completion percentage when blitzed to the best. Just my 2 cents. 🍻 1
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said: I don't think the WR corps is the reason Josh is in the MVP conversation this year. Josh has become a better QB by busting his butt during the off season. Yes, Diggs is amazing and he has helped Josh, but show me all the circus catches from Diggs this year on bad balls that Josh threw. I can't think of many. I think it is a little of both. Allen naturally progressing as a passer and Diggs making things easier and making big plays. Just off the top of my head I think all three TD's Diggs caught against the Patriots on MNF, I don't think we have another receiver on the roster that scores on those three plays. Not to say Allen wouldn't have eventually gotten us in the end zone on a couple of those drives but those were either tough catches (bouncing off the defender for one of them), great route running or great run after the catch ability. The should have been game winner against Arizona also comes to mind.
Inigo Montoya Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: I think it is a little of both. Allen naturally progressing as a passer and Diggs making things easier and making big plays. Just off the top of my head I think all three TD's Diggs caught against the Patriots on MNF, I don't think we have another receiver on the roster that scores on those three plays. Not to say Allen wouldn't have eventually gotten us in the end zone on a couple of those drives but those were either tough catches (bouncing off the defender for one of them), great route running or great run after the catch ability. The should have been game winner against Arizona also comes to mind. I agree, The WRs definitely have helped Josh this year. No argument. I just think Josh has taken that next step and is playing QB better in every facet of the game and would still be playing at a high level without Diggs. I don't think his numbers would be as good without Diggs. I think we probably agree more than we disagree on this one. Just more a matter of degrees. 🍻 1
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said: I just disagree that the WR corps is responsible for Allen playing so much better this year. Has the WR corps helped Allen? Of course it has, but that is not the first, second, or third reason reason he is playing at an elite level. I am going to list a series of improvements Josh has made and you tell me which ones Diggs, Beasley, Brown and Davis can take credit for; A. No more Hero Ball. B. Changing into the right play at the line of scrimmage. C. Adjusting protection at the line of scrimmage. D. Looking off safeties and pump faking DBs to get the WR open. E. Developing touch on his throws, not every throw is a 100 mph rope now. F. Amazing pocket awareness, shifting and moving in the pocket to keep plays alive G. Not running as soon as pressure arrives but keeping his eyes down field and throwing strikes. H. Dramatic improvement on throws when on the run to his left and right. I. Went from near worst completion percentage when blitzed to the best. Just my 2 cents. 🍻 Oh I totally agree. But see my other post as well. Diggs is simply elite. Always running perfect routes and getting open. And he's tuff as nails. To your point Allen has consistently progressed from Day 1. I always post the half season splits for Allen. Allen: 2018 Games 1-6 61.8 rating 2018 Games 7-12 72.6 rating 2019 Games 13-20 82.9 rating 2019 Games 21-27 88.8 rating 2020 Games 29-36 102.4 rating 2020 Games 40-46 111.6 rating 2021 ??? He's been getting better from day 1. Before Brown and Beasley and before Diggs. But make no mistake. Having an elite receiver like Diggs takes a QB to the next level. Imagine Mahomes' numbers without Hill or Kelce. Edited January 22, 2021 by Sammy Watkins' Rib 4
Inigo Montoya Posted January 22, 2021 Posted January 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Oh I totally agree. But see my other post as well. Diggs is simply elite. Always running perfect routes and getting open. And he's tuff as nails. To your point Allen has consistently progressed from Day 1. I always post the half season splits for Allen. Allen: 2018 Games 1-6 61.8 rating 2018 Games 7-12 72.6 rating 2019 Games 13-20 82.9 rating 2019 Games 21-27 88.8 rating 2020 Games 29-36 102.4 rating 2020 Games 40-46 111.6 rating 2021 ??? He's been getting better from day 1. Before Brown and Beasley and before Diggs. But make no mistake. Having an elite receiver like Diggs takes a QB to the next level. Imagine Mahomes' numbers without Hill or Kelce. I love those statistics. I think those stats tell the Josh Allen story better than any other you could come up with. It has been amazing to watch him getting better week to week since he was drafted. 1
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