Common Ground

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Good topic.  I’ll take my shot:

 

1.  A fundamental issue that should center any debate between opposing political factions should be the role of government in America, specifically the federal government.  Those on the left favor a more expansive role, and in the right a more limited.  My opinion is more towards the latter; I think the federal government is involved too much in things that are more appropriately state or local functions, such as education policy.  We need to have a serious national debate on this.

 

2.  We should all agree that every American should have the same rights and that any attempt to take away those rights should be fought by all. For example, we all have the right to vote, and any attempt to alter that right should be vigorously opposed.  No American should have less rights than others, nor should anyone be offered more rights to somehow make up for perceived historical lack of rights.

 

3.  We should all be able to agree that we live in a free country, but that you expressing your freedom to do something can not interfere with my freedom.  As an example, you cannot use your claim of religious freedom to deny me my freedom or my rights.  As an example of this our practice writes birth control prescriptions to regulate a woman’s cycle to, in fact, help her get pregnant.  And a couple times pharmacists won’t fill it claiming it violates their religious freedom.  Wrong.

 

4.  We should all learn the meaning of the word compromise, and demand this of our elected representatives.  We need to realize that very few, if any, political issues are black and white and that the best answers to move the country forward are couched in shades of grey.

 

5.  We should all agree that the country as a whole needs a class on civics.

 

6.  We should all be able to agree that America still stands as the greatest experiment in democracy in history, and that we can be proud of our country while acknowledging we have problems.  And that’s when one raises a problem and/or questions the government, someone saying - if you don’t like it, leave- is an inadequate response.

 

just some ideas, and I’ll leave it with one more observation.  Those protesting at the Capitol last week seemed to claim they were losing their freedoms, that they wanted to take back America.  My response is this:  how?  How are your freedoms being negated?  You still have your constitutionally protected rights.  You voted, you used your right to protest (and I’ll say here violence in any form of protest should be met with arrest and prosecution), you carry your guns if you like, and so on.  From my viewpoint, no freedoms have been removed from that group of protestors.  

 

Nor has America been taken away.  Those protesting last week still go to their jobs,  send their kids to school, and so on.  How exactly has America been so changed?  If your concern is that there are others who are getting their chance to participate in the American experience, that’s on you, not them.  Perhaps someone can explain to me why so many seem to think their America is gone.  It’s still there, and as it has since its inception America grows and adapts.

I like where you're going with this.  Most of it sounds reasonable.  I don't mess with you and you don't mess with me.  I don't try to impose my moral and social beliefs on you and you don't try to do it to me.   I don't force you into arrangements and transactions and situations against your will and you don't try to do that to me.  I respect your freedoms and you respect mine.  I make my life choices and you make yours.  Lastly we agree that anything that gives "The State" more control and power over the individual should be opposed.  

 

A fundamental problem is there are people out there that think they're intellectually, morally, and ethically superior to everyone that disagrees with them.  They think there is something fundamentally wrong with the people that don't believe what they believe.  That they suffer from some character flaw or behavioral issue.  That they somehow need to be "reprogrammed" or "educated" to act and think and speak in a manner consistent with their belief system.  They see the world through their eyes and refuse to accept the idea that anyone could have another perspective on things outside of their own view.

 

There are intellectual bigots on both sides of the left/right divide and they are a problem.  I'm not advocating taking action against them in any way.  Just that we all need to realize they are the cause of strife and conflict and they need to be ignored and that handing any power to them is dangerous.  As somebody that likes to mind his own business and take ownership and responsibility for my own life while respecting the rights of others to do the same I have absolutely no use or need for any of these extremists.  I don't need or want a leader to think or decide for me what is best for me.    

Edited January 12, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[SectionC3]

I'll add: we could all use a little more patience and kindness in our lives.  Great thread.  Wonderful idea.  

[SectionC3]

5 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Agree on this, though the state(s) government often suffer from the same bloat and overreach as the feds.

Agreed.

I'm with you mostly here.  As a business owner myself I can't imagine treating any customer poorly, or denying service to someone in need of my assistance.  I struggle when we get to issues like mandatory contraceptive coverage as in the Little Sisters of the Poor case.  

Agreed.

Agred.

Agreed.

Agreed.  Protest to vote, stop the steal, March to End Racism...all good.  Violence, breeching the Capitol, destruction of personal property, all sides of the same coin. 

So on this one, I am wading in slowly.  My humble suggestion on this point is that many, many folks upset or willing to peacefully protest may no longer have jobs to go to, and I've said all along that this issue divides us--it's incredibly easy, relatively speaking, to weather the COVID storm when you get paid.  People can hunker down perpetually when they can pay their bills, meet their obligations and wait things out.  We have millions of citizens in that category, including every elected official protected by law enforcement last week.  Unfortunately, we have tens of millions of people not in this position nearly a year into the crisis.  

 

How long would you be willing to lock down if you had nothing?  How long would you have been willing to lock down if you had nothing, you were 35 years old and the primary breadwinner for your spouse and family?   

 

 

 

I don't mind any of this, except for "stop the steal."  It is a freaking lie.  That's the problem.  There was no meaningful fraud, and everyone with any kind of political background (Republican and Democrat) knows it.  Don't like the relaxation of absentee ballot rules?  Totally fine.  We disagree, but your opinion on that issue is at least somewhat close to reality.  The "stop the steal" nonsense?  No reality to it whatsoever.  Nothing but a straight, damned, poisonous lie.   

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

3 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

I don't mind any of this, except for "stop the steal."  It is a freaking lie.  That's the problem.  There was no meaningful fraud, and everyone with any kind of political background (Republican and Democrat) knows it.  Don't like the relaxation of absentee ballot rules?  Totally fine.  We disagree, but your opinion on that issue is at least somewhat close to reality.  The "stop the steal" nonsense?  No reality to it whatsoever.  Nothing but a straight, damned, poisonous lie.   

Noted.  The one guy always thinks the other other guy is telling a lie.  
 

Besides, are you suggesting that people should not be allowed to protest peacefully simply because you don’t support Stop the Steal?  

[SectionC3]

Just now, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Noted.  The one guy always thinks the other other guy is telling a lie.  
 

Besides, are you suggesting that people should not be allowed to protest peacefully simply because you don’t support Stop the Steal?  

Nope.  Those are the Trumpers who believe everyone is lying but Trump.  
 

people are entitled to peacefully protest.  It’s the American way.  Promulgating this stop the steal lie, however, has got to stop.  Trump started it, his followers bought it, and it has led to such things as insurrection and the storming of the capitol. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Nope.  Those are the Trumpers who believe everyone is lying but Trump.  
 

people are entitled to peacefully protest.  It’s the American way.  Promulgating this stop the steal lie, however, has got to stop.  Trump started it, his followers bought it, and it has led to such things as insurrection and the storming of the capitol. 

 
We agree that insurrection and storming the Capitol are crimes against the country. The perpertrators should be dealt with harshly, and as I see individuals arrested daily, I think that is occurring.  
 

You have your thoughts on Trump, I have mine.  The common ground can be the recognition that we disagree, or we can forgo the common ground entirely and agree that’s for the best.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SectionC3]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 
We agree that insurrection and storming the Capitol are crimes against the country. The perpertrators should be dealt with harshly, and as I see individuals arrested daily, I think that is occurring.  
 

You have your thoughts on Trump, I have mine.  The common ground can be the recognition that we disagree, or we can forgo the common ground entirely and agree that’s for the best.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good.  I don't think there's an analogy to be drawn between the Capitol BS and what occurred this summer.  The Capitol is in a class by itself.  But to the extent it's relevant, I completely agree with you.  Any rioters from this summer should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and all of the insurrectionists and traitors (that is, everyone) who stormed the Capitol should receive the same treatment.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Just now, SectionC3 said:

Good.  I don't think there's an analogy to be drawn between the Capitol BS and what occurred this summer.  The Capitol is in a class by itself.  But to the extent it's relevant, I completely agree with you.  Any rioters from this summer should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and all of the insurrectionists and traitors (that is, everyone) who stormed the Capitol should receive the same treatment.  

We’ll have to disagree on some of that, at least insofar as i think you are drawing false comparisons.  
 

I think when rioters are allowed and/or encouraged to destroy or “occupy”, or when orders are given to stand down for extended periods of time, it contributes to a feeling of chaotic anarchy for many people.  It becomes normalized.  
 

I’m not an anarchist, never was, so they could set up Chop zones in every major city from here to Philadelphia and you’re not going to find me storming the Capitol and climbing through smashed out windows.  They could burn down police stations, destroy Starbucks and burn down a shopping mall and it’s not going to compel me to do what those a##holes did in either place. 

 

I’m pro law and order, pro mind my business, pro people. 
 

However, when anarchy reigns supreme, anarchy follows.  
 

I’d certainly suggest peaceful protestors protesting peacefully have zero/nothing/nada/zilch in common Capitol rioters, but the anarchists over the summer are opposite sides of the same coin. 
 

 

[SectionC3]

25 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

We’ll have to disagree on some of that, at least insofar as i think you are drawing false comparisons.  
 

I think when rioters are allowed and/or encouraged to destroy or “occupy”, or when orders are given to stand down for extended periods of time, it contributes to a feeling of chaotic anarchy for many people.  It becomes normalized.  
 

I’m not an anarchist, never was, so they could set up Chop zones in every major city from here to Philadelphia and you’re not going to find me storming the Capitol and climbing through smashed out windows.  They could burn down police stations, destroy Starbucks and burn down a shopping mall and it’s not going to compel me to do what those a##holes did in either place. 

 

I’m pro law and order, pro mind my business, pro people. 
 

However, when anarchy reigns supreme, anarchy follows.  
 

I’d certainly suggest peaceful protestors protesting peacefully have zero/nothing/nada/zilch in common Capitol rioters, but the anarchists over the summer are opposite sides of the same coin. 
 

 

 

I gotta stick to my point about the Capitol being in a class by itself.  It's not a neighborhood in Philly or Portland or Seattle or wherever.  It is the seat of the first branch of government.  That's what makes this different.  It's not an attack on a street, a neighborhood, or even a city.  It's an attack on what literally is the image of our government and our democracy.  That's why it has to be dealt with harshly, regardless of who pays the price--MAGA, leftist, somebody who just got caught up in the moment, whatever.  The nature of the attack compels a significant consequence. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

10 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

I gotta stick to my point about the Capitol being in a class by itself.  It's not a neighborhood in Philly or Portland or Seattle or wherever.  It is the seat of the first branch of government.  That's what makes this different.  It's not an attack on a street, a neighborhood, or even a city.  It's an attack on what literally is the image of our government and our democracy.  That's why it has to be dealt with harshly, regardless of who pays the price--MAGA, leftist, somebody who just got caught up in the moment, whatever.  The nature of the attack compels a significant consequence. 

I think we agree on the harshness of the response.  I saw a lady bleed out from a neck wound, I’ve seen stories of rioters being rounded up from various places across the country, and I see the label “domestic terrorism” bandied about fairly often.

 

I don’t think these people are getting the “set em free” deal that seems pretty popular these days when imagery or children of a lesser god are involved.  Dead seems significant to me. 

 

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I think we agree on the harshness of the response.  I saw a lady bleed out from a neck wound, I’ve seen stories of rioters being rounded up from various places across the country, and I see the label “domestic terrorism” bandied about fairly often.

 

I don’t think these people are getting the “set em free” deal that seems pretty popular these days when imagery or children of a lesser god are involved.  Dead seems significant to me. 

 

My little brain doesn’t understand the last paragraph.  But I think we’ve found common ground on the first paragraph.  And that is a good thing! 

[BillsToast]

On 1/7/2021 at 3:10 PM, TBBills said:

We can agree there is 3 parties.

Democratic, Republican, and Trumpsters Terrorism party.

 

Did you say that when BLM and Antifa burned down cities "peacefully", or took over city blocks as apart from the US or only when The Big Orange Man asked people to demonstrate (not riot)? 

 

  😆  😆  😆  😆  😆  😆  😆

[TBBills]

2 minutes ago, BillsToast said:

 

Did you say that when BLM and Antifa burned down cities "peacefully", or took over city blocks as apart from the US or only when The Big Orange Man asked people to demonstrate (not riot)? 

 

  😆  😆  😆  😆  😆  😆  😆

Antifa is a terrorist organization. The only thing I have a problem with is people using these protests as a means to loot. They have nothing to do with the protests they are just there to cause criminal damage.

[BillsToast]

More "common ground":

 

[oldmanfan]

8 hours ago, BillsToast said:

More "common ground":

 

And that’s wrong.  You are missing the point of the thread.  People of differing political persuasions can all agree violence is wrong.  But bringing up examples just from your side of the aisle draws people apart.

[TBBills]

10 hours ago, BillsToast said:

More "common ground":

 

One is some random idiot who has no influence over anyone... The other is the president of the United States where these people take his words as truth....

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

11 hours ago, TBBills said:

Antifa is a terrorist organization. The only thing I have a problem with is people using these protests as a means to loot. They have nothing to do with the protests they are just there to cause criminal damage.

Come on TB! You don’t have a problem with anything except looting? Really? What about the property damage and vandalism? That doesn’t bother you? Of course it does...and should. 

[jrober38]

23 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

I don't think this is true at all.  I bet if you read this whole thread,  and then discussed the points of common ground we identified with one of the people at the capital you would probably find out that they agree on very many of them. 

 

Really?

 

They can't even accept that Trump lost the election. 

[Tenhigh]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

Really?

 

They can't even accept that Trump lost the election. 

Doesn't mean they don't agree with a lot of other points in this thread.  

[jrober38]

20 hours ago, SectionC3 said:

 

I gotta stick to my point about the Capitol being in a class by itself.  It's not a neighborhood in Philly or Portland or Seattle or wherever.  It is the seat of the first branch of government.  That's what makes this different.  It's not an attack on a street, a neighborhood, or even a city.  It's an attack on what literally is the image of our government and our democracy.  That's why it has to be dealt with harshly, regardless of who pays the price--MAGA, leftist, somebody who just got caught up in the moment, whatever.  The nature of the attack compels a significant consequence. 

 

Exactly.

 

There's a difference between someone walking out their front door and rioting in their own neighbourhood and people from all across the country, being called to Washington D.C. on a bunch of lies to try and overthrow the government. 

 

Both are terrible, but one is worse. One is treason.