Anyone else get annoyed when people say Josh Allen’s first 2 seasons were terrible?

[JaCrispy]

No...

 

1st year...one of the worst QBs in football...

 

2nd year...better, but still at, or slightly below, average...

 

3rd year...elite, top 3 QB, and rising...

Edited January 6, 2021 by JaCrispy

[Real McClappy]

6 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Teams are gonna keep qb's they should otherwise move on from because of Josh Allen - like Tua

 

Allens stats his first 2 years were sub par but if you actually watched his games he was fine/average/slightly below except during opening drives and in the fourth qtr where he was great - even as a rookie he was good in during these times. 

 

The media that is saying Allen huge progression and why you need to take time never actually watched him play just looked at stats - the guy led the league in game winning drives last season

 

NAhh, just a reality check for the "I want it now crowd". It solidifies that a rookie QB needs 2-3 season to develop and that you have to pop a solid O-line around them with some decent WRs. These teams throwing QBs to the wolves for several years with no Offensive line make me laugh. 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Mickey said:

It annoyed me more when I heard that kind of lazy criticism here. I especially could be harsh when I heard the common complaint that "Allen has to be better" as if we would waive him if all he did was match his 2nd year performance and get us into the playoffs with two weeks to spare.  Most commonly though, there were posts about how the poster really liked Josh and they were totally supporting him before going into a lengthy dissertation on the overwhelming proof that he was a terrible QB who would never improve. 

 

Thankfully, all that is over, for now. 

 

 

Josh Allen didn't get us into the playoffs last year with two weeks to spare.

 

I think if you go back and check out the box scores, you will find there were 11 players on the field pretty much at all times. That was the Buffalo Bills who did that, and frankly the defense was a lot more responsible for their success last year than the offense. The defense was edging on elite last year while the offense was pretty average.

 

For the eight billion and first time, wins are not a QB stat. They are a team stat.

[colin]

you can check my old posts, i've been calling him FavrElway since day 1

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Josh Allen didn't get us into the playoffs last year with two weeks to spare.

 

I think if you go back and check out the box scores, you will find there were 11 players on the field pretty much at all times. That was the Buffalo Bills who did that, and frankly the defense was a lot more responsible for their success last year than the offense. The defense was edging on elite last year while the offense was pretty average.

 

For the eight billion and first time, wins are not a QB stat. They are a team stat.

 

I'm not sure we know how you feel on this subject Thurm...... could you maybe repeat your position?

[billsfan1959]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think when people say he was terrible as a rookie I look at the way a lot of rookies have been able to come in and play in recent years (even Burrow and Herbert this year) and think I can see where they are coming from.... the people who say he was terrible for two years didn't watch him play enough in 2019. 

 

To a point, yes. However, every QB situation is different. Allen came out of college with a lot less experience at the position, having played with a lower level of talent around him (relative to other QBs starting as rookies), was pressed into the starting position with no veteran QB presence and no QB coach, and arguably the worst offensive talent (collectively) in the league at the offensive line and receiver positions.

 

He threw passes to 12 different receivers (not including RBs) in 2018. Of those, Isaiah McKenzie is still with the team, 6 of them are no longer even in the league, and the other 5 are with other teams. Of those five, Logan Thomas had a career year in 2020 with 670 yds and 6 TDS, while the other 4 managed a grand total of 269 yds in 2020.

 

Given the totality of the circumstances, I wouldn't agree with people who say he was terrible in 2018. There were plenty of moments where Allen's potential was there for anyone who cared to really see it.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, billsfan1959 said:

 

To a point, yes. However, every QB situation is different. Allen came out of college with a lot less experience at the position, having played with a lower level of talent around him (relative to other QBs starting as rookies), was pressed into the starting position with no veteran QB presence and no QB coach, and arguably the worst offensive talent (collectively) in the league at the offensive line and receiver positions.

 

He threw passes to 12 different receivers (not including RBs) in 2018. Of those, Isaiah McKenzie is still with the team, 6 of them are no longer even in the league, and the other 5 are with other teams. Of those five, Logan Thomas had a career year in 2020 with 670 yds and 6 TDS, while the other 4 managed a grand total of 269 yds in 2020.

 

Given the totality of the circumstances, I wouldn't agree with people who say he was terrible in 2018. There were plenty of moments where Allen's potential was there for anyone who cared to really see it.

 

Again that is context about why he was bad in 2018. It doesn't change the fact he was bad. If people want to say his 2018 was without any hope or there weren't reasons to have optimism then fair enough, challenge them. But how did he play as an NFL Quarterback? Yea... it was pretty terrible. When you consider the context it wasn't a reason for people to write him off, but that is a different point. 

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Teams are gonna keep qb's they should otherwise move on from because of Josh Allen - like Tua

 

Allens stats his first 2 years were sub par but if you actually watched his games he was fine/average/slightly below except during opening drives and in the fourth qtr where he was great - even as a rookie he was good in during these times. 

 

The media that is saying Allen huge progression and why you need to take time never actually watched him play just looked at stats - the guy led the league in game winning drives last season

 

 

 

 

Again, an awful lot of the reason he had so many game-winning drives was that the defense was so terrific and kept us in so many games where the offense didn't do much. You're right that he was better at the end of games, but that doesn't make you a good quarterback. Being consistent throughout games is what it takes. 

 

Allen absolutely did make terrific progress this year, he made a huge leap. Solid progress last year, a monster advance this year.

 

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm not sure we know how you feel on this subject Thurm...... could you maybe repeat your position?

 

 

Nope, I categorically refuse.

 

Until somebody repeats the same nonsense. 

 

Sorry to be so repetitious, Bill, and everybody. But it ain't as if I say it till somebody once again tells us how many games Josh is responsible for winning.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Bangarang]

Josh’s rookie season was terrible though. His 2nd year he was better but still pretty mediocre. Not sure why we should pretend otherwise. 

[4merper4mer]

41 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

While Brady was sitting his rookie year, the Offense was 25th in points scored.  His first year as starter they went to 6th.  Same coach was 5-11 with Bledsoe.

 

 

Nope, correcting BS never ends. 

 

 

 

I think calling it BS is a little aggressive/sensitive.  The guy said year three when it was year two.  Maybe he was purposely lying as you insinuate but my guess is he just made a mistake.  It was about Brady so it seems you took it personally and assumed it was purposeful.  The poster was a Bills fan and we’re a little excited now so please try to take a deep breath before assuming the worst of us.  He was trying to be positive about Allen.  He didn’t mean to be negative about Tom.

 

Interesting that you now won’t even name BB.  20 years of success and now it’s bye bye and a little Bledsoe era throwing under the bus?  Are you considering switching over to Tompa Bay?

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again that is context about why he was bad in 2018. It doesn't change the fact he was bad. If people want to say his 2018 was without any hope or there weren't reasons to have optimism then fair enough, challenge them. But how did he play as an NFL Quarterback? Yea... it was pretty terrible. When you consider the context it wasn't a reason for people to write him off, but that is a different point. 

 

I understand what you are saying, Gunner, however, I do not believe you can really separate the two. To make any statement without a foundation based in context is, by its very nature, an uninformed statement. My post was addressing those who believe he was a terrible QB in 2018. My point was that, IMO, if you examine the context in which he played in 2018, the results may not have been good; however, he was not a terrible QB. I think to say he was a terrible QB is, at best, a lazy analysis.

 

As always, appreciate your posts.

[mjt328]

The "experts" in the media don't have time to watch all 32 teams for 16 games.  

They have time to watch a few games per week, then analyze highlights and box scores on the rest.  

 

To be completely honest, Josh Allen's first two years were pretty bad statistically, at least from a passing perspective.  His completion percentage was at the bottom in 2018 and 2019, and the Bills didn't really throw enough for him to rack up much yardage.  Yes, he was pretty good at scoring in the Red Zone, and had some decent touchdown numbers.  But much of that was done with his legs (which only gets respect if you are Lamar Jackson).

 

People talk about the "eye test" when evaluating players, and Allen was one that certainly fell into that category during his first two seasons.  Bills fans saw something in Allen that others did not, simply because they watched him play football every week.  What he was doing - and what he was capable of - it just didn't always translate to the stat sheet.  In the offseason, lots of Bills fans were talking up Allen as a breakout star in 2020, while everyone else around the league was expecting him to bust.

 

It's the same reason that Bills fans were happy to dump EJ Manuel after less than 2 seasons under center, and why reporters in the media felt we never gave Tyrod Taylor a fair shot at keeping the starting job.  Unlike them, we watched those guys play every Sunday and realized they didn't have it.

 

[whatdrought]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

This. There are two common refrains from the media people that have hated on him since day 1:

 

1) Bills fans were wrong to be optimistic about Allen, he just happened to beat the odds and we got lucky.

 

2) If Allen had been drafted by the Jets he would be a bust and if Darnold had been drafted by the Bills he would be a star.

 

So basically they pretend Allen only turned out good because of pure circumstance and luck, rather than admit they were wrong about him being a bust.

 

I was completely against drafting Allen but even I knew by the end of his first season he was not a bust. It was just a matter of when the improvement would stop. The people that thought he was a bust after year one or two were either jaded beyond repair Bills fans or analysts that clearly didn't watch every game.

 

I really love the people that say Allen walked into a perfect situation and Brian Daboll is a QB whisperer. Go look at Allen's supporting cast in 2018 and 2019 and see the offenses Daboll had before he had a generational QB and generational WR fall into his lap. People will say anything rather than admit they were just wrong about him.

Yep. Revisionist history. Same as the “Mahomes was a cant miss prospect” bs that’s prevalent. 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

NE won a SB in Brady's second season.  He was 11-3 , was SB MVP and went to the PB.

 

Brees appeared in one game his first season.  He started 6-1 and finished 8-8 his second season. 

 

 

 

See what I mean, Bill?

 

Again, no Brady was not 11-3. You'll find that that was the New England Patriots. Brady was one of the 11 guys on the offense, specifically the one who threw for 189.5 yards per game, who threw for 2843 yards in 15 games, threw 18 TDs and 12 INTs and put up a rip-roaring 86.5 passer rating. He was a game manager, really for his first four or five years, putting up slight but steady improvement till the light well and truly came on and he turned into "Tom Brady" in year 8.

 

And again to the again, same with Brees. He didn't win those games. It wasn't Brees who started 6-1 and finished 8-8 in his second season, his team did. He was the guy who managed 60.8% completions that second year you refer to, who threw 17 TDs and 16 INTs, who was a dink-and-dunker extraordinaire at 6.2 YPC, and whose passer rating was 76.9 that year. We saw him suddenly take the huge leap forward in year 4, going from 11 TDs and 15 INTs in year 3 (2003) to a 2004 of 27 TDs and 7 INTs. His passer ratings in his first four years were 94.8 on 27 attempts, then 76.9, then 67.5 and they drafted Rivers in the offseason and Brees swashbuckled his way to a 104.8. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again that is context about why he was bad in 2018. It doesn't change the fact he was bad. If people want to say his 2018 was without any hope or there weren't reasons to have optimism then fair enough, challenge them. But how did he play as an NFL Quarterback? Yea... it was pretty terrible. When you consider the context it wasn't a reason for people to write him off, but that is a different point. 

Good point

 

As a rookie Allen was fine showed flashes made the plays to show the potential

 

As an nfl starting QB it was bad

 

33 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

NAhh, just a reality check for the "I want it now crowd". It solidifies that a rookie QB needs 2-3 season to develop and that you have to pop a solid O-line around them with some decent WRs. These teams throwing QBs to the wolves for several years with no Offensive line make me laugh. 

I agree teams start qbs too early where the team around them isn't ready to help a rookie.

 

However no matter the talent around a rookie QB he needs to flash the potential that made them a high draft pick. If they don't show the potential I see no issue with moving on quickly 

 

Now back to your point where teams throw them to the wolves - coaches/gms/owners need to know and be ok with not starting their prized 1st round pick that they pay a lot of money too for potentially years/seasons

[Casey D]

Allen's progression has been pretty clear and steady.  He was awful pre-injury 2018.  Last six games in 2018 he was improved.  Last game in 2018 against Dolphins was excellent.

 

2019 he picked up where he left off.  Slow steady progress all through the season.  Fewer bad plays, but still too many.  But upward trajectory was clear.

 

2020, first four games another jump up-- better than 2019.  Then a plateau.  Then the last six games a whole other level.  If this is his peak, that's fine.  But I suspect he'll not reach his peak/prime until 2022-23.  But to anyone paying attention, Allen has always had all the goods, brains, hard work, charisma and great athleticism.  Takes time for all that to mature.  

[Thurman#1]

55 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I understand what you are saying, Gunner, however, I do not believe you can really separate the two. To make any statement without a foundation based in context is, by its very nature, an uninformed statement. My post was addressing those who believe he was a terrible QB in 2018. My point was that, IMO, if you examine the context in which he played in 2018, the results may not have been good; however, he was not a terrible QB. I think to say he was a terrible QB is, at best, a lazy analysis.

 

As always, appreciate your posts.

 

 

Well, his throws really were very inconsistent in 2018, context aside, with many wild misses and poor choices. I think most would and did call that a poor performance and for good reason. You're right that he wasn't in a good situation. But you were still able to see how well his passes reached their targets and how often he made awful choices. You'd see an incredible dime and then he'd airmail one. Consistent inconsistency. Extremely raw. In a word, terrible, if you were judging him by NFL standards.

 

Did he show potential at times? Sure, but so do many guys who end up on the scrapheap. Having potential means squat. Achieving your potential, as he has this year, now that's something real.

 

Which was understandable for a guy who they wanted to sit for a year the way KC did for Mahomes. He wasn't meant to play that year. He was in a terrible situation, but he himself was also really bad in the pass game, though his attitude, competitiveness and his running gave hope.

 

What was also really encouraging was seeing the improvement. His first few games of 2019 he seemed to be the same guy, performing at the same poor level. But after that Pats game, there was a very real improvement.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Well, his throws really were very inconsistent in 2018, context aside, with many wild misses and poor choices. I think most would and did call that a poor performance and for good reason. You're right that he wasn't in a good situation. But you were still able to see how well his passes reach their targets and how often he made awful choices. You'd see an incredible dime and then he'd airmail one. Incredible inconsistency. Extremely raw. In a word, terrible, if you were judging him by NFL standards.

 

Which was understandable for a guy who they wanted to sit for a year the way KC did for Mahomes. He wasn't meant to play that year. He was in a terrible situation, but he himself was also really bad at throwing, though his attitude and his running gave hope.

 

Thanks for the reply, Thurman, but my point was that you cannot set context aside. I believe this view of Allen being wildly erratic with his ball placement was (1) a bit of an exaggeration based on a faulty narrative and (2) cannot be made without looking at the context of such things as: His offensive line being nothing more than a turnstile leading to Allen being one of the most pressured QBs in the league and making a lot of throws on the run or without the ability to set up; throwing deeper passes per attempt than most other QBs, a receiving corp dead last in ability to separate, etc.

 

He was more raw than other QBs, had less experience coming into the NFL, and was thrown into the fire on an awful offensive team from a talent perspective. His play certainly reflected all of that; however, IMO, that is different than saying he was a terrible QB. IMO, he wasn't. 

[Batman1876]

Josh is tricky to talk about unless you watch the games. His first year he was a very bad passer, but he improved through the year. But he also had elite physical tools and was able to use that to throw some miracle passes and keep us competitive with his legs. With josh the team won 45% of its games without him starting we won 20% that was due to his physical tools and leadership.  His second year he got better at being a passer and relied on his legs less. This was super important. Lots of guys with elite physical tools decline after the first year because the league figures out how to counter those tools. great QBs grow their game and expand their skills beyond those physical gifts. That’s what we all saw this year elite physical gifts combined with great QB play.  
 

so Josh went from bad passer to ok passer to great passer. But his elite physical traits meant he was never a terrible player. 

[Thurman#1]

34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Thanks for the reply, Thurman, but my point was that you cannot set context aside. I believe this view of Allen being wildly erratic with his ball placement was (1) a bit of an exaggeration based on a faulty narrative and (2) cannot be made without looking at the context of such things as: His offensive line being nothing more than a turnstile leading to Allen being one of the most pressured QBs in the league and making a lot of throws on the run or without the ability to set up; throwing deeper passes per attempt than most other QBs, a receiving corp dead last in ability to separate, etc.

 

He was more raw than other QBs, had less experience coming into the NFL, and was thrown into the fire on an awful offensive team from a talent perspective. His play certainly reflected all of that; however, IMO, that is different than saying he was a terrible QB. IMO, he wasn't. 

 

 

 

I got your point. Everyone has. The three of us are disagreeing with your point.

 

Of course you can separate context. Not perfectly, of course. But you can watch the throws, see if they're getting where they need to be and see if the decision to throw there was poor. And Allen had a lot of poor throws and bad decisions that year, a lot. Mixed in were some terrific throws. But not enough.

 

Nobody would say, for instance, that you can't really tell if he's playing very well right now because you can't separate his performance from the terrific context he's playing in. Wouldn't make sense to say that. Of course you can tell he's playing sensational, even though the context he's in is absolutely excellent.

 

And I couldn't agree more that he was raw as hell. He said so himself in his Albert Breer interview. Beside the point, though. Performance isn't about justifications or what you are. It's strictly what you do. I think we're all saying that yeah, he really was terrible that first year in the pass game, though his 2019 performance couldn't be called that with any degree of legitimacy.

 

In any case, I think we can all agree that whatever we think about his old performance, it's a joy to watch him now.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Thurman#1