Changed my mind - Bring back Milano and let Edmunds walk

[JGMcD2]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

ALL of them.

 

He has a ghastly 116 passer rating allowed......4 TD passes allowed.......he is giving up nearly 9 yards per pass attempt against him..........just 3 pass breakups on the entire season.........ZERO interceptions..........you name it.

 

He has played better of late.........in particular I thought he really brought it physically against the Niners..........but if you watch this defense objectively he leaves more plays on the field than ANYONE.    Even Levi.

 

And I am a big Edmunds fan..........I thought he was a great pick by Beane.........I thought he was the best pass rushing prospect in that draft...........but he's just not playing up to his immense talent as an off-ball LB.

His passer rating is inflated because of a really poor first 5 weeks. 158, 153, 118, 149... an average of 127 in the first 5 weeks.
 

Things have been much improved since then... 83.5 on average over the last 9 weeks.

 

Y/A is down from 22 yards in the first 5 weeks to 6 over the last 9.

 

He allowed 3 TDS in the first 5 weeks. He’s allowed 1 since then. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

From my understanding the value he brings is clogging up the passing lanes and forcing the QB to make an alternate decision. That’s the reason I included the “dream catcher” he has a specific profile and skill set. 

 

It’s not necessarily measured outside of watching film.

 

 

Oh I watch plenty of the film.    And I am a season ticket holder with seats in the middle of the field and had a birdseye view of his uninstinctive play for his first two years.

 

I was intrigued by the "positionless football" concept that landed Edmunds in the middle.    I thought length on the lines and at LB might make it hard for teams to pass the ball in the middle of the field.    But that hasn't actually been the case.    I see QB's manipulate Edmunds and throw the ball right behind him.    I've seen them, now confident from 3 years of tape,  challenging him with tight window throws knowing that he just does not make plays on the football.   Turnover differential is so important........literally the most decisive stat next to the actual score.  

 

Ultimately the plays in this defense are all made by the conventionally built athletes like Milano and Poyer........not the spiderman freak-athlete Edmunds......even though he is in the most likely place to make them in this defense.

 

Maybe the light comes on for him at some point..........it would be very convenient if that were in these playoffs..........but after 3 years of diminishing returns from him as a playmaker I think it's more than fair to wonder if his talents would be much better served in a position where he can just attack and make use of his physical gifts.     

[djp14150]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Time to identify you core positions. Those are the ones you pay. QB, Elite WR, OTs and then up the middle on defense meaning (DTs, MLB, Safety and one CB). The rest have to be role players or on rookie deals. That is what Bills will manage once they Pay Josh. 

 

you need a pass rusher to invest in.  You don’t invest as much in DTs

[ghostwriter]

Edmunds is a good not great player.. If he wants elite money, you let him go.. I think he’s worth $10M aav. He’s a better player than Milano, no doubt. Problem I have with Edmunds is he isn’t a violent, hard hitting, vocal leader at LB like Takeo Spikes or say Brian Urlacher or Patrick Willis. Ironically he reminds me a lot of Patrick Willis minus the hard hits and the mean streak, same range and athletic ability, but he gets abused at times against the run.. He has positional versatility, can play all three spots, bigger, faster, more durable etc.. I think Edmunds would excel in the role Milano is in.. Let Milano go.. Add a true MLB in the draft, let Edmunds assume Milano’s role, but once again it all comes down to money... not a penny more than $10M/yr.. If Edmunds isn’t reasonable with his contract demands, see if you can bring Milano back at a discount instead.. $$$$$$$$$

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

16 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Edmunds is a good not great player.. If he wants elite money, you let him go.. I think he’s worth $10M aav. He’s a better player than Milano, no doubt. Problem I have with Edmunds is he isn’t a violent, hard hitting, vocal leader at LB like Takeo Spikes or say Brian Urlacher or Patrick Willis. Ironically he reminds me a lot of Patrick Willis minus the hard hits and the mean streak, same range and athletic ability, but he gets abused at times against the run.. He has positional versatility, can play all three spots, bigger, faster, more durable etc.. I think Edmunds would excel in the role Milano is in.. Let Milano go.. Add a true MLB in the draft, let Edmunds assume Milano’s role, but once again it all comes down to money... not a penny more than $10M/yr.. If Edmunds isn’t reasonable with his contract demands, see if you can bring Milano back at a discount instead.. $$$$$$$$$

 

This whole thing about "Edmunds isn't a MLB" strikes me as a fan thing.  I get the arguments, but the players and coaches of the NFL obviously disagree.

[ghostwriter]

Just now, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

This whole thing about "Edmunds isn't a MLB" strikes me as a fan thing.  I get the arguments, but the players and coaches of the NFL obviously disagree.

Once again.. Edmunds seems to be more of a passive player who reacts and responds instead of being more of an aggressive playmaker.. People like their MLBs to be more like Spikes, Lewis, Willis, Butkus... Edmunds is more of a Paul Posluszny/London Fletcher type of player.. May make a lot of tackles but unfortunately they’re 4-5 yards down the field.. Very good if not elite as a pass defender though!

[Real McClappy]

For Edmunds I think this thread is about 1 year premature. I was extremely harsh on him the first 4-6 weeks of the year as he looked like a liability on D for us. Since then he has actually been pretty solid in the passing game. I would like to see him shed blocks better and hit those running lanes harder but think he's slowly getting better here as well. 

 

He's got the playoffs and all next year. I hope he surprises a ton of fans. 

[Beast]

No.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

 

It’s not necessarily measured outside of watching film.

In the initial stage of Edmunds’ drop into zone coverage (top right of the image), he saw wide receiver Jakobi Meyers go into his breakdown to settle into a curl route. Edmunds could easily have stayed right where he was around the 31-yard line or even tried to cover up the receiver. But when he saw Meyers settle in well short of the first-down marker, he knew to continue his drop. Edmunds’ decision to carry through with the zone as it was called was a big reason the Bills took away the Patriots’ ability to get a first down through the air. The route combination had one receiver going deep to take the cornerback and safety with him, and another receiver working to get behind the first-level of the Bills’ zone coverage, past the first-down marker and inside to make it an easier throw for the quarterback. The Patriots’ routes effectively took the cornerback and safety away from the crossing receiver, but Edmunds’ drop made him a threat to jump the second-level route. Edmunds then settled at the first-down marker at the 28-yard line. His anticipation forced Newton to settle for the shorter target. 

 

 

 

Which LB among Klein, Milano and Edmunds would you expect to NOT know where the first down marker was?    That's pre-snap football that one would expect even Tyrel Dodson not to screw up.

 

The issue isn't that Edmunds blows the most basic assignments..........he doesn't.......he's mostly assignment sound........the issue is what happens when he has to react(be instinctive).

 

He too often chooses the wrong gap.............he tries to arm tackle when he has plenty of time and space to line up ball carriers...........and time and again the ball finds him unprepared for it and falls harmlessly at his feet.    

 

And his vaunted frame covers some air space but it doesn't do him any favors when shedding blocks,  working thru the trash to get to ball carriers and/or then having them get under his pads and take him for a ride.

 

Like I said.........he is in the position to make a ton of plays in this defense and he just leaves SO many of them on the field.

 

[BuffaloRebound]

Milano is the type of guy the Patriots won with for 20 years.  Always around the ball, makes plays.  The real question is do you want Milano at $8m per year or Edmunds at $20m per year.  

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

This whole thing about "Edmunds isn't a MLB" strikes me as a fan thing.  I get the arguments, but the players and coaches of the NFL obviously disagree.

 

 

Are people actually saying he just "isn't a MLB" at all or that he's just not that exceptional at it and may be better served at a position where he can make more of an impact?

 

Off-ball LB's aren't as valued as they once were.     MLB in particular is basically a reflection of the RB position..........its typically a player with a size/athleticisim ratio that's relatively easy to find and the good ones seem to have a 6th sense negotiating thru traffic.

 

But teams let even the good ones walk in free agency the same way they do RB's or Guards because they aren't that hard to replace.

 

You really don't want to spend a first round pick on a guy who just executes his assignments and calls the defenses correctly from an off-the-ball LB position..........and I suspect, as do most, that Edmunds could do a lot more good in pursuit of the passer.

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

22 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Are people actually saying he just "isn't a MLB" at all or that he's just not that exceptional at it and may be better served at a position where he can make more of an impact?

 

Off-ball LB's aren't as valued as they once were.     MLB in particular is basically a reflection of the RB position..........its typically a player with a size/athleticisim ratio that's relatively easy to find and the good ones seem to have a 6th sense negotiating thru traffic.

 

But teams let even the good ones walk in free agency the same way they do RB's or Guards because they aren't that hard to replace.

 

You really don't want to spend a first round pick on a guy who just executes his assignments and calls the defenses correctly from an off-the-ball LB position..........and I suspect, as do most, that Edmunds could do a lot more good in pursuit of the passer.

 

My point was: educated fans like you are saying this.  The NFL isn't. You can't argue that, considering he's a two-time pro-bowler.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

My point was: educated fans like you are saying this.  The NFL isn't. You can't argue that, considering he's a two-time pro-bowler.

 

 

And I am saying that yours is a straw man argument made perhaps from a willfully unanalytical position.

 

I have never said that Edmunds couldn't play MLB.

 

Tyrod Taylor was one of the only 3 AFC QB's invited to the Pro Bowl in 2015........he could play QB.......that didn't make him tremendous though....... it made him the 3rd best of a relatively weak field of AFC QB's that year.

 

That's the case at ILB in the AFC the past couple of seasons.    The NFC is a much different story.    They are stacked at MLB.

 

Not that it matters THAT much because being a top MLB is akin to being a top RB.    Their presence or the lack thereof doesn't move Vegas lines.

 

Julian Stanford and Tyrel Dodson have literally both stepped in for Edmunds and the D has not missed a beat and Klein has handled mike duties just fine(arguably better) when they've switched up responsibilities.   

 

It's not if Edmunds can play MLB though............it's how well and if that's the most impactful position he could fill.

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

And I am saying that yours is a straw man argument made perhaps from a willfully unanalytical position.

 

I have never said that Edmunds couldn't play MLB.

 

Tyrod Taylor was one of the only 3 AFC QB's invited to the Pro Bowl in 2015........he could play QB.......that didn't make him tremendous though....... it made him the 3rd best of a relatively weak field of AFC QB's that year.

 

That's the case at ILB in the AFC the past couple of seasons.    The NFC is a much different story.    They are stacked at MLB.

 

Not that it matters THAT much because being a top MLB is akin to being a top RB.    Their presence or the lack thereof doesn't move Vegas lines.

 

Julian Stanford and Tyrel Dodson have literally both stepped in for Edmunds and the D has not missed a beat and Klein has handled mike duties just fine(arguably better) when they've switched up responsibilities.   

 

It's not if Edmunds can play MLB though............it's how well and if that's the most impactful position he could fill.

 

This is where you're argument falls flat.  Look at the statistics since Edmunds came back from his injury.  We're the 10th ranked D right now.  By making posts like this, you further the haters who think you have an agenda. 

[BearNorth]

Those first two drives, against New England, Edmunds was auditioning for the bull ring in Madrid - several "ole'" plays.  The Cam TD was a blatant tackle by the O on the D tackle, but Frazier made the adjustments.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

16 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

This is where you're argument falls flat.  Look at the statistics since Edmunds came back from his injury.  We're the 10th ranked D right now.  By making posts like this, you further the haters who think you have an agenda. 

 

 

Where ANY of my arguments have "fallen flat" here for 20+ years is when saying anything that isn't 100% hype being blown up the status quo.          

 

But in lieu of any actual football discussion(as in your case) I will gladly take hate from a bunch of rando's from east BF.  

[JGMcD2]

59 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Where ANY of my arguments have "fallen flat" here for 20+ years is when saying anything that isn't 100% hype being blown up the status quo.          

 

But in lieu of any actual football discussion(as in your case) I will gladly take hate from a bunch of rando's from east BF.  

Your argument isn’t wrong, I made a statement that most of his value is derived from clogging passing lanes and your initial argument centered around his pass defense stats not being good... no mention of film. 
 

Then I showed you stats and how he’s improved since his injury and instead of acknowledging that you decided to counter my film point saying that you watch film and have great seats to watch him and he doesn’t execute his assignments well and falls short from making impact plays time and time again. 

Then I give you a specific example of what I’m talking about and you move to him not having enough instincts, but the examples you gave were related to his run defense, which I made pretty clear early on that I don’t think his run defense is great either... but you and I were never discussing that. 
 

Nothing falls flat, you just slowly move the proverbial goal post each time further away from your initial argument to push your point of view and then puff your chest about how you’re never wrong even though you’ve ignored people proving you wrong throughout the entire conversation. I’ve brought this up numerous times when we’ve gone back and forth. 
 

You’re extremely intelligent but you never acknowledge that you’re wrong, you ignore and then find a different set of information to prove your point. 
 

Now rather than acknowledging all of this you’re going to tell me I’m dumb and how you’re superior to me. None of this is hidden... you can just go back and read all the posts that go 1 page back. 
 

Wash. Rinse. Repeat. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by JGMcD2

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

This whole thing about "Edmunds isn't a MLB" strikes me as a fan thing.  I get the arguments, but the players and coaches of the NFL obviously disagree.

We have eyes and brains too.  We may not know the calls but we can watch the plays and analyze replays/film.  The same coach that loves Edmunds at MLB started Nathan Peterman more than once.  

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Your argument isn’t wrong, I made a statement that most of his value is derived from clogging passing lanes and your initial argument centered around his pass defense stats not being good... no mention of film. 
 

Then I showed you stats and how he’s improved since his injury and instead of acknowledging that you decided to counter my film point saying that you watch film and have great seats to watch him and he doesn’t execute his assignments well and falls short from making impact plays time and time again. 

Then I give you a specific example of what I’m talking about and you move to him not having enough instincts, but the examples you gave were related to his run defense, which I made pretty clear early on that I don’t think his run defense is great either... but you and I were never discussing that. 
 

Nothing falls flat, you just slowly move the proverbial goal post each time further away from your initial argument to push your point of view and then puff your chest about how you’re never wrong even though you’ve ignored people proving you wrong throughout the entire conversation. I’ve brought this up numerous times when we’ve gone back and forth. 
 

You’re extremely intelligent but you never acknowledge that you’re wrong, you ignore and then find a different set of information to prove your point. 
 

Now rather than acknowledging all of this you’re going to tell me I’m dumb and how you’re superior to me. None of this is hidden... you can just go back and read all the posts that go 1 page back. 
 

Wash. Rinse. Repeat. 

 

 

Cherry picking a few stats from a few games out of a season does not a compelling argument make.

 

I literally gave you a season worth of extensive pass defense stats and it's not like the stats you gave me as a defense were even signs of exemplary play.

 

His best stretch of pass defense this year is worse than his entire season performance last year.

 

But, OK.......... in those games where he had better ratings what plays did he make?   Pass breakups?   Interceptions?   Forced fumbles?   TFL's?  

 

Take a look at those type of plays in his stat line.........you will find that he's actually regressed steadily in those statistics since his rookie year.    

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

This is where you're argument falls flat.  Look at the statistics since Edmunds came back from his injury.  We're the 10th ranked D right now.  By making posts like this, you further the haters who think you have an agenda. 

During that same time White and Wallace came back from injury, Klein was named Defensive Player of the week and played at least three really good games, they benched Murphy, the DT play improved, and Milano has been playing steadily more snaps.  I don't doubt a healthy Edmunds has been part of the improvement but he is hardly the sole reason and more likely a very minor reason.