ngbills Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 Nothing unique to Bills here. It already happens will continue to happen regardless of anything related to Josh Allen. And Josh did not fall. He was projected as a consensus first rounder by almost all sources.
PrimeTime101 Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 Yes Josh is an anomaly lol Teams will get close to finding what Josh does but there wont be another QB with this kind of size.. speed. accuracy
Gordio Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 20 hours ago, Don Otreply said: None of those QBs were able to incorporate the knowledge from their coaches, if they had they would have had markedly more success. They had sufficient physical talent, but Talent is more than physical attributes, you need the cognitive talent even more, without that Josh does not succeed. Go Bills!!! Your wrong, Losman couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Just too inaccurate. I remember running on a tread mill next to Van Miller one time. This was the summer of Losman's second season. I asked him if JP had a chance to be good. He said & I quote "No, just too inaccurate & I just don't see that improving." Manuel, ask any FSU fan on here. This guy was a converted receiver out of necessity due to injuries. Jimbo ran a dumbed down offense for him. He won a lot of games because that team was stacked. Watch the difference in the offense in EJ's last year at FSU compared to the year after when Winston took over & won the NC. It was so obvious that Jimbo trusted Winston much more. He opened up the offense with him under center and the results were terrific. It is pure fallacy that all qbs drafted in the first round have sufficient physical talent. They don't.
BillsFanSD Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 On 12/16/2020 at 5:15 PM, Ethan in Portland said: Just to be clear the same organization drafted and same coaching staff started Nathan Peterman So in your mind, missing on a 5th round pick is comparable to drafting a franchise QB with a top 10 pick. Interesting.
Don Otreply Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, Gordio said: Your wrong, Losman couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Just too inaccurate. I remember running on a tread mill next to Van Miller one time. This was the summer of Losman's second season. I asked him if JP had a chance to be good. He said & I quote "No, just too inaccurate & I just don't see that improving." Manuel, ask any FSU fan on here. This guy was a converted receiver out of necessity due to injuries. Jimbo ran a dumbed down offense for him. He won a lot of games because that team was stacked. Watch the difference in the offense in EJ's last year at FSU compared to the year after when Winston took over & won the NC. It was so obvious that Jimbo trusted Winston much more. He opened up the offense with him under center and the results were terrific. It is pure fallacy that all qbs drafted in the first round have sufficient physical talent. They don't. Actually it is you who is wrong. They lacked the capacity to implement what their coaches where teaching, both Losman and Manual were amply strong, they just couldn’t learn how to do it correctly, hence cognitive talent... Brains my friend brains, it’s the thing that controls the muscles... Allen used his brain to control his musculature, and lifted himself out of the big strong guy with limited capacity category, it’s that simple. And because of that cognitive talent Allen is now considered a top three QB in the league. Go Bills!!!
BigDingus Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 On 12/16/2020 at 5:15 PM, Ethan in Portland said: Just to be clear the same organization drafted and same coaching staff started Nathan Peterman No one wants to admit it, but there is a fair amount of luck in this process. I had Allen #1 but would have been happy with Rosen. Many on here hated the Allen pick and wanted Rosen or others. I do agree that coaching and culture play a crucial role. But no culture or coaching is going to make a weak arm work. Bingo. And that same organization was so comfortable with Peterman & a raw rookie in Allen that they felt fine ditching AJ McCarron, not signing any veterans, and going into the season with 2 inexperienced QBs with what, 2 full games as a pro under their belts? They felt fine with this knowing we had a porous O-line, one of the worst WR corps I've ever seen fielded and had no backup plan in case things went sour...leaving them scrambling to sign Derek Anderson out of retirement, then Matt Barkley off the park bench. The way things played out was VERY Bills-like, and it could've gone the way of the Jets, ruining their potential franchise QB. Thankfully they learned from their mistakes & didn't get Josh killed in year 2, and did everything they could up through this year to get additional help. Other teams might not be so fortunate if they go the same route.
OrtonHearsaWho Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 This has been a really great thread! I think a better question could be will teams be more likely to take a risk in the draft rather than make a mistake...risks can certainly become mistakes. I really think it takes a near perfect scenario for a team & organization to be a good combination. If you flip Darnold and Josh what is the scenario for both teams and players? I think Darnold ends up looking pretty good and Josh ends up looking pretty bad and that's not taking anything at all away from Josh because I do (now) feel like he's the better player. I also het scared because that combo can be disrupted so easily...look no further than Carson Wentz. I appreciate Josh and I appreciate the coaching staff and front office but really I appreciate the whole collective organization more than any single part. Man, isn't it nice to be able to say that as a Bills fan!? 1
Don Otreply Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, BigDingus said: Bingo. And that same organization was so comfortable with Peterman & a raw rookie in Allen that they felt fine ditching AJ McCarron, not signing any veterans, and going into the season with 2 inexperienced QBs with what, 2 full games as a pro under their belts? They felt fine with this knowing we had a porous O-line, one of the worst WR corps I've ever seen fielded and had no backup plan in case things went sour...leaving them scrambling to sign Derek Anderson out of retirement, then Matt Barkley off the park bench. The way things played out was VERY Bills-like, and it could've gone the way of the Jets, ruining their potential franchise QB. Thankfully they learned from their mistakes & didn't get Josh killed in year 2, and did everything they could up through this year to get additional help. Other teams might not be so fortunate if they go the same route. Yes, it was a ship headed towards the rocks there for a while, very Billsy I might add, but luckily for Mcbeane, Josh and us they righted the ship with good course corrections. Did we luck out or was it this the outcome all along... Go Bills!!!
Mat68 Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 On 12/16/2020 at 7:03 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said: Josh Allen isn't the 1st QB drafted in round 1 that was controversial. Heck, remember EJ Manuel? A big armed QB with all the physical talent in the world will always get drafted as a franchise QB prospect every year. Ej had the prototype height weight speed. His throwing motion was terrible. He threw the ball like a guy who had a number of coaches telling him how to throw. The result was a combo of some good some bad techniques thrown together like a frankenstien Qb of the worst kind. Allen was a natural thrower at least. Allen took Wyoming to the programs highest levels in decades, Manuel ruitenly was beat out by Ponder and the program went off with Winston.
Buffalo_Stampede Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Mat68 said: Ej had the prototype height weight speed. His throwing motion was terrible. He threw the ball like a guy who had a number of coaches telling him how to throw. The result was a combo of some good some bad techniques thrown together like a frankenstien Qb of the worst kind. Allen was a natural thrower at least. Allen took Wyoming to the programs highest levels in decades, Manuel ruitenly was beat out by Ponder and the program went off with Winston. Nix drafted him for his physical ability is the point. GM's will continue to do it.
HappyDays Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 8:30 AM, nucci said: "Massive chip on his shoulder" is so overrated. These guys are competitive athletes that want to succeed Are you saying there aren't tiers of competitiveness? That's like saying "all NFL players are athletes." Allen was known for having elite arm strength but he also has elite competitiveness, just like Tom Brady. It isn't true that every player works just as hard or wants to succeed just as much as everyone else. If there's one reason to doubt a player like Allen will succeed again it's that he was much more raw than maybe any other 1st round QB drafted in recent memory. People said Manuel was "raw" but he played 4 years at Florida State and was groomed to be a QB even years before that. Allen played multiple sports in high school and didn't develop physically until he was playing for junior college. By all accounts he was a mediocre high school athlete that miraculously developed into an elite athlete just a couple years later. If teams are going to use his profile as an excuse to draft big arm inaccurate QBs they're going to be wrong more often than not. On 12/17/2020 at 1:28 PM, Nextmanup said: Look at the renaissance Tannehill is enjoying with a change of scenery and a different team makeup. Tannehill was never as bad as Rosen and Darnold have been. Their chances at being a starter are just about done. Darnold might have a sliver of chance of becoming something but Rosen is on a practice squad right now. His NFL career is almost over.
JoshAllenReceipts Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 8:30 AM, nucci said: "Massive chip on his shoulder" is so overrated. These guys are competitive athletes that want to succeed Wrong. Josh Allen's competitive spirit is Jordanesque. Failing is not an option. Levels.
QLBillsFan Posted December 19, 2020 Posted December 19, 2020 The narrative was how clever the Jets were to jump up after trade with Colts. Only problem is they picked the wrong guy. Elway would not trade 5 as he wanted Chubb. TB hooked up Beane after he got enough value for pick 7. Bills had JA as 1 on board.
InEnemyTerritory Posted December 19, 2020 Posted December 19, 2020 For the record I was an anti-Allen guy before the draft; I was convinced by the rule that QBs are always better in college than in the NFL, at least over the past decade. I thought Mayfield would end up the best by far - my ranking went Mayfield, Rosen, Jackson, Darnold, Rudolph, Lauletta, Allen. How wrong I was. But because I am human and stubborn to a fault, I will continue to defer to the rule that non-Josh Allen QBs are always better in college than in the NFL. Seriously! Who's one other example since 2010? So yes, I think teams will continue to fall flat on their faces looking for the next big arm prototype QB, reinvigorated by Allen's success.
GunnerBill Posted December 19, 2020 Posted December 19, 2020 5 hours ago, QLBillsFan said: The narrative was how clever the Jets were to jump up after trade with Colts. Only problem is they picked the wrong guy. Elway would not trade 5 as he wanted Chubb. TB hooked up Beane after he got enough value for pick 7. Bills had JA as 1 on board. Indeed by draft day the Bills only had Darnold and Allen left on their board. Once the Jets picked Sam they had to be pretty darn nervous until that trade came together. Had it not and say Arizona had got up to take Allen I am pretty sure the Bills would have taken Edmunds with their first 1st round pick and they might have slid back and taken a Rudolph at the end of the first / early second. Thank heavens that didn't happen. The Roethlisberger trade up that nearly was but wasn't haunted us for 14 years... 1
ganesh Posted December 19, 2020 Posted December 19, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 1:47 AM, msw2112 said: 20 hours ago, msw2112 said: Guys who lack the physical ability, but have the mental ability and work ethic/attitude can have long careers in the league as backups (and occasional starters). Fitz is one of those guys for sure. Maybe Josh McCown is another. Todd Collins? Chad Pennington I agree that Pennington is one of these "type" of guys, but left him off the list of names because he was mostly a starter throughout his career. Good player, but a very weak arm. If he had a stronger arm, he could have been really good. Kyle Orton
Gordio Posted December 22, 2020 Posted December 22, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 8:03 AM, Don Otreply said: Actually it is you who is wrong. They lacked the capacity to implement what their coaches where teaching, both Losman and Manual were amply strong, they just couldn’t learn how to do it correctly, hence cognitive talent... Brains my friend brains, it’s the thing that controls the muscles... Allen used his brain to control his musculature, and lifted himself out of the big strong guy with limited capacity category, it’s that simple. And because of that cognitive talent Allen is now considered a top three QB in the league. Go Bills!!! Yeah right, everybody gets the talent to be an all pro but they just cant apply what the coaches are teaching. Whatever buddy. Allen's talents are miles ahead of JP Losman, EJ, Todd Collins, Alex Van Pelt, Trent Edwards, Fitz. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.
CapeBreton Posted December 22, 2020 Posted December 22, 2020 Hard to say, look at Tyree Jackson last year. Dude is huge, athletic, fast, rocket for an arm, looked like he had some potential and he didn't even get drafted.
singlezero Posted December 22, 2020 Posted December 22, 2020 Perhaps Buffalo made the same mistakes drafting a QB because they were always looking at the formula we had of winning with a big gun slinger QB we had in jim kelly . That mentality of what was needed in cold frozen windy buffalo has resonated . forsaking flutie for johnson , jp losman , ej manuel. It just so happens this time we hit and it is working.
Don Otreply Posted December 22, 2020 Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gordio said: Yeah right, everybody gets the talent to be an all pro but they just cant apply what the coaches are teaching. Whatever buddy. Allen's talents are miles ahead of JP Losman, EJ, Todd Collins, Alex Van Pelt, Trent Edwards, Fitz. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Ya missed the point, by this response, it no longer surprises me, have a nice post season, I don’t use the ignore feature, but if I did you would be a candidate for its use.... Go Bills!!! Edited December 22, 2020 by Don Otreply
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