Dawson Knox needs to go....now.

[TroutDog]

1 hour ago, wjag said:Knox is growing on me.  Sure the fumble was a bit of a fluke. That 3rd down catch was a great read on his part.  The deep pass over the middle was almost caught.  I think Allen is going to stick with him.  The team obviously favors him over other options.  I expect to see that route down the seam again.  Hopefully they can work on his blitz pickup and blocking a bit.  He’s going to start flashing.  Brown coming back is going to open up more stuff too.  

For me, I think you nailed it: he’s hungry and wants to prove he can do it. To a certain degree, I believe he already has as he’s made some challenging catches in his young career. 
 

I also KNOW it’s important to let guys develop. Particularly pass catchers and QB’s. Sure, there is the occasional diamond in the rough who is stellar in year one. But Knox was NEVER a pass catcher in college. Give the kid a chance for God’s sake. 
 

I suspect, if you looked at who is saying to get rid of him on this board that they would be the EXACT same people who said to get rid of Josh: knee-jerk reaction folks (God I wanted to write ‘moron’ there...but I took the high road 😃). 
 

There are things to learn from film, including from Star Wars: most important is: “Patience, my young Padawan.” 

[Bob in STL]

Some players just take a few years to reach their full potential.   Knox was showed flashes but he is very inconsistent.  For that reason I would like to see the Bills dress Knox-Smith- Kroft.  Instead they have been going Knox-Smith-Gilliam to help the ST.  
 

Smith is the blocker, and is basically an OT that can catch.  
 

So the decision is should you dress Kroft in case Knox stumbles, or is making our ST a priority the best move?    
 

Gilliam played 21 of the 28 ST plays versus Pittsburgh.  He played about 75% of the snaps the week prior as well.   McD is big on ST right now.   

[Stanley Lombardi]

Oh, great. I just bought my 25-year old son a #88 jersey for Christmas, and now you tell me. 

 

And to think that I saw #88 score a touchdown in 2 of our last three games.  Does scoring  touchdowns and becoming a fan favorite mean anything in the NFL, or do the hordes  of experts, such as yourselves, now pooh-pooh such things?

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, TroutDog said:

For me, I think you nailed it: he’s hungry and wants to prove he can do it. To a certain degree, I believe he already has as he’s made some challenging catches in his young career. 
 

I also KNOW it’s important to let guys develop. Particularly pass catchers and QB’s. Sure, there is the occasional diamond in the rough who is stellar in year one. But Knox was NEVER a pass catcher in college. Give the kid a chance for God’s sake. 
 

I suspect, if you looked at who is saying to get rid of him on this board that they would be the EXACT same people who said to get rid of Josh: knee-jerk reaction folks (God I wanted to write ‘moron’ there...but I took the high road 😃). 
 

There are things to learn from film, including from Star Wars: most important is: “Patience, my young Padawan.” 

Not a pass catcher?? Well damn, what was he in college because his blocking sucks too.

[Rocket94]

On 12/13/2020 at 10:53 PM, Kwai San said:

OK....after his crazy fumble I was ready to go thru my TV screen.  But as I thought it through in years past that play would have been the downward spiral of the Bills to a horrific loss.  Perhaps Knox can stay perhaps not - he tried to atone for his error rather well.

 

Bottom line these Bills are real, the real deal.  America is seeing this.  This Saturday presents another opportunity to show the world - Bills are the real deal.

 

Meanwhile......Knox can go, along with Norman.....see yourselves out the door genitals.......

Yes...not good. I remember everyone raving about Knox a year ago!

[papazoid]

knox is a terrible blocker and mediocre receiver.....bills must upgrade

[GreggTX]

I agree that we should upgrade at TE, but Knox may still turn out ok. I just don't think TE is a top priority now. Get a probowl CB opposite Trae and a great pass rushing OLB and our D goes from OK to great. I also want better Guards. Dawkins, Morse and Williams are above average, but a road grader at RG would be nice. I was hoping Ford would excel at LG, but now I'm not so sure.

 

How about we kidnap OBJ and tell Cleveland we want Wyatt Teller and Logan Thomas back or OBJ goes over the Falls in a barrel?

Edited December 16, 2020 by GreggTX

[JaCrispy]

12 hours ago, blacklabel said:

Knox definitely has the ability to become a very productive player in this league. Unfortunately, injuries have hit him hard this year, and the dropsies still seem to get to him at times. I still have confidence that the kid can get it right and become a real threat for this team. 

He does not seem like a natural pass catcher, and he’s so “clunky” whenever he moves or changes direction...maybe they should convert him to FB and find another TE...

Edited December 16, 2020 by JaCrispy

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

26 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

I agree that we should upgrade at TE, but Knox may still turn out ok. I just don't think TE is a top priority now. Get a probowl CB opposite Trae and a great pass rushing OLB and our D goes from OK to great. I also want better Guards. Dawkins, Morse and Williams are above average, but a road grader at RG would be nice. I was hoping Ford would excel at LG, but now I'm not so sure.

 

How about we kidnap OBJ and tell Cleveland we want Wyatt Teller and Logan Thomas back or OBJ goes over the Falls in a barrel?

They will just tell you to let that barrel go.

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Yes, because you never trash Bills players...

 

Look here.  in 2017 Thomas started playing in game 3 and from games 7-12 got about one third (call it 30% if you wish) of the snaps on offense, while in 2018 he got about 40% of the snaps.  That's hardly "nothing."  He didn't show much (his best season with them was 77 yards) and he was making a position switch from QB to TE, which rarely works, so they moved-on.  It was reasonable to do so and to say otherwise because he looks better now, 2 seasons later, is 20/20 hindsight, nothing more, nothing less.

 

And the reason he looks better now is because he's found a home with the Redskins, where he's 3rd on the team in targets because they have a dearth of talent.  With the Bills, Knox is 6th in targets because he's lower on the pecking order. 

 

But as I mentioned before, Thomas' and Knox's per target production is exactly the same.  And that holds not only for Thomas' season last year and Knox's season so far this year, but also if you compare their seasons this year, i.e., multiply Knox's receptions, yards and TDs by 2.7 (which is how many times more targets Thomas has) and you get...Thomas' production this year.  So if you like Thomas...

 

The Bills did what you wanted last year in the draft: they addressed the TE position.  The problem is that, outside of the TEs drafted in the 1st round, the rest have done little in the NFL to date.  But the Bills already spent the pick and he doesn't cost much so he's not going anywhere until at least the end of next pre-season.  Again that doesn't mean the Bills shouldn't look to upgrade, but they certainly haven't been hampered by Knox not being a top TE.

 

 

I never trashed Thomas.  You made that up.

 

I did "look here"--that's where I got the numbers I posted.  In his last 4 games he had 19, 33, 4 and 5% of snaps.  28 and 30% before that. I would "call it" 1 game at 33%, 4 under 20 and 2 at 5% or less.  "dearth of talent" in Washington?  In Thomas's rookie year the leading receiver was McCoy (in targets) and Clay in yards (558).  That's a dearth of talent, no?

 

Compare that to Knox, who got over 50% of the snaps in 13 of his 15 rookie games and 7 over 70%.  He was 3rd in targets. And that's with Brown and Beasely on the roster (better options than McCoy and Clay, no?).

 

 

Multiply Knox's receptions by Kelce's TDs while your fantasizing--none if changes the fact that Thomas, once he  finally got Knox-type looks is getting better.  Knox is not.   Also, if the Bills had played Thomas in his first 2 seasons like they play Knox, they would likely not have had to blow a pick on a guy who rarely caught passes in college. That's the point  of this discussion.

 

 

 

[Kwai San]

10 hours ago, Rocket94 said:

Yes...not good. I remember everyone raving about Knox a year ago!

 

Careful what you say here....the Knoxies will find you and be mean to you!!!  🤣

[ganesh]

On 12/15/2020 at 6:06 PM, Rochesterfan said:

 

The Bills may choose to try and draft a TE, but that will depend upon what they want to do with Lee Smith more than anything.

 

Kroft is gone, but replaced by a returning Sweeney, Knox and Gilliam are here.  If they decide to retain Lee Smith - then I would expect the only TE they will be looking at is perhaps a late round flier.

 

If they decide to move on from Smith - which is possible with his contract - they might try a 2nd or 3rd round pick or a low cost FA.

 

I am not anticipating the Bills looking for a high draft pick TE because that is not a high priority need.  I think they feel they can get away with Sweeney and Knox as H-Back and in-line TEs and get enough out of them to supplement the offense.  I think they will look at positions that will be losing depth - potentially O-Line, DE, CB, LB as the top 3 draft picks. 

Now if someone falls significantly and the value is right - I could see a value pick at TE, but the chances to me seem pretty remote.  

Beane has always tried to pick the best prospect available at that slot.  So it reallly comes down to their board and how the draft goes.

[JGMcD2]

Apparently player development doesn’t exist... improvement is a myth. Any improvement that happens only happens during a player’s rookie season and they’re not allowed to improve after that. So when they don’t improve, get rid of them immediately! 
 

So glad that we followed those rules with Josh! 

[SCBills]

Considering the best comp for JA that I can think of is a big Aaron Rodgers, we can look at his Tight End - Robert Tonyan, who has exploded in Year 3.  

 

Tight Ends take time, and he's already shown the ability to make big plays.... I think the consistency will come as he gets more reps. 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

I never trashed Thomas.  You made that up.

 

I did "look here"--that's where I got the numbers I posted.  In his last 4 games he had 19, 33, 4 and 5% of snaps.  28 and 30% before that. I would "call it" 1 game at 33%, 4 under 20 and 2 at 5% or less.  "dearth of talent" in Washington?  In Thomas's rookie year the leading receiver was McCoy (in targets) and Clay in yards (558).  That's a dearth of talent, no?

 

Compare that to Knox, who got over 50% of the snaps in 13 of his 15 rookie games and 7 over 70%.  He was 3rd in targets. And that's with Brown and Beasely on the roster (better options than McCoy and Clay, no?).

 

 

Multiply Knox's receptions by Kelce's TDs while your fantasizing--none if changes the fact that Thomas, once he  finally got Knox-type looks is getting better.  Knox is not.   Also, if the Bills had played Thomas in his first 2 seasons like they play Knox, they would likely not have had to blow a pick on a guy who rarely caught passes in college. That's the point  of this discussion.

 

I'm not going to go back and search the threads from 2017 and 2018 but I remember you trashing him.  It's what you do and I doubt anyone would disagree with that statement.  

 

I don't know why Thomas' snaps dropped-off at the end of 2017 (I guess you could call it his "rookie" year...as an NFL TE, but it was his 4th in the NFL).  But since he didn't play the final 2 games of the season, I'll bet injury.  But while you'll no doubt want to get hung-up on the exact numbers, the fact is he got a lot more playing time than "nothing," especially considering he was a converted college QB getting his first action as a TE in the NFL, and those rarely ever work. 

 

And yes, there was a dearth of talent on that Bills team.  I don't know what  point you think you're trying to make there other than it took years for him to get up to speed.

 

And nice try but I never said Knox would be Kelce.  Few TEs in NFL history have been like him.  What I am saying it that it's all about targets.  I told you this after the Bills traded for Diggs and you were trying to claim he wasn't a top-10 WR.   

[Thurman#1]

On 12/15/2020 at 9:28 PM, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Maybe 4 more years of college ball would have done the trick.  

 

 

Or college elsewhere. 39 catches total. They just didn't throw to the TE much there.

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Or college elsewhere. 39 catches total. They just didn't throw to the TE much there.

 

Yup.  And last year, Josh targeted him (just) 50 times.  Had he targeted him even just 76 times like Thomas has been so far, he could very well have had 43 receptions for 590 yards and 3 TDs.  

[BigBuff423]

The entire TE conversation is infuriating because all too often someone says, " Get a Kelce / Gates / Ertz" via the Draft, but fail to do their research on what it took to produce those TEs and follow up the "get em'" statement by saying the Bills should use a high draft pick on a TE. Yet, an extremely high rate of successful and very productive TEs do NOT, I repeat do NOT, come from high draft picks! Kelce, Gronk and Ertz all 2nd rounders, but so, so many others are mid to late round Draft picks. 

 

TE is a position that requires so many skills from understanding the entire Offense, not just a receiving route tree for himself but all of them, he needs to know when to pass block and when and how to run block, he needs to be able to run, catch, be strong against LBers and Safeties but nimble enough to get around a Corner and he needs to stay healthy in one of the more physical positions to play in the NFL. It is arguably, in terms of the total construct of the position - physical and mental - maybe the hardest position to be really good at outside of QB. A great TE is actively involved in every single play, no matter a pass or rush and no matter what side of the field - and they need great athleticism to be able to produce the actual Offensive yards we're all looking for....in short, Knox was RAW coming out of college and has had some COVID and injury issues this year, be patient. 

 

I don't think that means the Bills don't get a Vet TE or Draft another, but taking one too high would seem like fools gold given the history of the position. Give Knox time, let Sweeney come back, and make a move for a 3rd - just don't overpay in FA and don't "over-draft" one to meet the perceived demand of a high volume TE. Keep in mind in KC, it's Hill, then Kelce and everyone else plays runner-up to those two mouths which need to be fed...think about what that means on this Bills team. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by BigBuff423

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

15 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

Some players just take a few years to reach their full potential.   Knox was showed flashes but he is very inconsistent.  For that reason I would like to see the Bills dress Knox-Smith- Kroft.  Instead they have been going Knox-Smith-Gilliam to help the ST.  
 

Smith is the blocker, and is basically an OT that can catch.  
 

So the decision is should you dress Kroft in case Knox stumbles, or is making our ST a priority the best move?    
 

Gilliam played 21 of the 28 ST plays versus Pittsburgh.  He played about 75% of the snaps the week prior as well.   McD is big on ST right now.   

 

Read an article the other day, forgot where which basically stated "Knox played in a college offense that didn't incorporate the TE into it" 

 

So then why draft a guy like that someone could ask.  Answer, he was drafted for his physical abilities that few others possess.  Also read from time to time that TE may be the toughest position for a rookie to come into the NFL and be productive.  Couple that with him playing in an offense that didn't use one at all, it's going to take at least another year.

 

Considering the Bills use 4 WR think I read like 29% of the time and they do have Smith and Gilliam who have both surprised from time to time, I wouldn't bother also dressing Kroft.  If Knox gets hurt in the 2nd quarter, got with out him, maybe got 4 WR more, then the following week activate Kroft again.

[colin]

knox is a stud athlete and everyone seems to love him, pretty sure he is allen's roommate and that's not a small thing.

 

he is just athletic and talented enough to get open and not quite catch the ball.  it's not like a case of dropsies or whatever, he is simply not a good pass catcher.  blocking too, if he gets his mits on someone he can do some work, but he is fooled and out of position plenty.

 

if we have a good post season run and he contributes, i think they give him plenty more opportunity next season to prove what he's got.  if not, they bring someone in and i bet he can't compete.