Are the Patriots now the drought-era Bills?

[Captain Hindsight]

37 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

That game last night reminded me of the drought era Bills.  Stay in the hunt until around late November/December, have a nice win where you start to billeave the drought may finally come to an end only to put up a stinker game and crush your playoff hopes. Lol 

Remember one year they got eliminated then the next game they blew out Tebow and the Broncos? Or beat the packers then lose to a bad raiders team? 

 

Oh good times

 

 

[Paup 1995MVP]

If the Patriots offense continues to play like it did last nite, they are a 4 win team.  Cam is done.  Watching him try to pass and run is pathetic.  If the Pats were smart they would have given Jamais Winston a chance.  Instead they go with Hoyer Cam and Stidham.  Cam actually looks scared playing NFL QB now.  If Sean McVay wasn't so conservative in the second half they would have put up over 35 pts easily.  On the whole the Pats D is still pretty solid.  But that John Simon is a poor man's AJ Klein.  The funny thing was that Belichik did not even look pissed last nite.  It was like he knew going in that if they did not completely stop the Rams offense, they were done.  And there you go.  It was pretty much over at halftime.  Nice game to bet on.  That 4 and a half point spread was as close to a lock on the Rams as you will find.  

[Ghost_002!]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I thought the comment on TV last night about how horrid the Pats WR drafts had been was a bit strange.  N'Keal Harry made a couple clutch receptions, including one where he went up and got hammered.  Made me wonder how much is him, how much has been the guys throwing to him. 

 

Before that, you had what? a 4th rounder on Barrios and a 6th on Malcolm Mitchell?  The more cogent point might be under- investing in the WR and TE position given Edelman's age and Gronk's injury history.  When they were cranking a system that had been in place for years, they could manage to just fit guys into it more easily than when adjusting.

 

I think the Achilles heel for all these Belicheck tree guys has been the tendency to want to replicate the Belicheck model of controlling player personnel as well and perhaps micro-managing their assistants.   Flores seems to be "playing well" with his GM so far and delegating his offense to Chan and that's working OK.  McDaniels flamed out hard in Denver by trying to play GM, and that's what hosed O'Brien as well.

 

 

For N'Keal it could be a lot things, on the pats fan forum there is a thread dedicated to N'Keal productions or lack there of. He was thrown into the situation with Brady and Brady stop playing nice with young receivers years ago, so that could of hinder his development, BB absolute stinks at noticing wide talent, he whiffed on all those receivers in the draft last year and in 2018..could of had Deebo Samuel and/or AJ Brown, but NOPE! This year its now Cam Newton throwing him the ball and we all can see how bad he is at that, and N'Keal has been injurie a lot as well....in that Harry thread most of us Pats fans think he is a bust.

 

The other wide outs now; Meyers and Damiere Byrd are ok, they aren't bad. They do get open and Cam misses them..i would say they would be 3rd  or 4th option on another team who has a solid wide receiving core. 

 

BB always thinks he can find that hidden gem in some of the most awkward places...d2, and d3 colleges.....like sometimes just buy into the hype man. 

 

and yea for most of the coaches who left to be head coach in other places, yeah they tried too hard to be him and it just doesn't work for them. I have always like Flores and I did like Billy O'Brien everyone else i can careless and I personally think any team that gives Josh McDaniel's another chance would be a complete fool........i do not think he will be a very good coach in the NFL. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Ghost_002!

[chris heff]

1 hour ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

You say this...like the draft is not coming up, free agency is not coming up? (in their cap situation is very good next season) Their Wide Outs are ok...after numerous break downs on film. They actually do get open. Newton is just god awful at reading defensives now and misses throws badly...aka. their short comings this year is more on the QB than their wide outs....even though they still need help at that position. 

 

 

 

 

and unrelated to this post. Someone mentioned his coaching tree. You forget Flores is part of that tree. THe coach whose dolphins team is only one game back from you guys in the division. Bill O'Brien as well..although he completely missed up that Hopkins situations. Bill O'Brien had a good winning career with the texans and has won a few playoff games.

 

 

and then there's Nick Saban

Well that should be easy then with free agency and the draft coming up. Even though there are not 32 people on the planet that can be a good QB in the NFL, they should have no trouble finding one. I’ve watched most of Patriots games this year that WR group is a mediocre bunch, maybe with great QB play they would be adequate. They still have no TEs. You don’t solve all that in one draft and one free agency. 
 

I mentioned the coaching tree. Bill O’Brien got fired because he thinks he is Belichick, he is not, getting fired is not success. Flores may turn out to be a good coach, but that remains to be seen. Saban worked for Belichick in Cleveland, both got fired. Saban himself said his four years working for Belichick were the worst of his life. Saban was a disaster has a head coach in the NFL, great college coach. It is a different skill set. This discussion is about the NFL. There is not one guy from Belichick coaching tree that has gone on to a successful NFL head coaching career.

[Ghost_002!]

21 minutes ago, chris heff said:

Well that should be easy then with free agency and the draft coming up. Even though there are not 32 people on the planet that can be a good QB in the NFL, they should have no trouble finding one. I’ve watched most of Patriots games this year that WR group is a mediocre bunch, maybe with great QB play they would be adequate. They still have no TEs. You don’t solve all that in one draft and one free agency. 
 

I mentioned the coaching tree. Bill O’Brien got fired because he thinks he is Belichick, he is not, getting fired is not success. Flores may turn out to be a good coach, but that remains to be seen. Saban worked for Belichick in Cleveland, both got fired. Saban himself said his four years working for Belichick were the worst of his life. Saban was a disaster has a head coach in the NFL, great college coach. It is a different skill set. This discussion is about the NFL. There is not one guy from Belichick coaching tree that has gone on to a successful NFL head coaching career.

 

 

This team is 6-7 with a sh*t QB. They could of had or could picked up a "bridge" QB and be a threat for the playoffs  because their coaching staff is that strong. BB has proven that time and time again. He gets the most out of his players often, so they could bring in a Jimmy Grapolo (example) and be a threat for this division and maybe the AFC next year, and i am just going off their record now and losing very close games to the bills and seahawks.  

 

Doesn't matter why BIll O'Brien got fired, look at his record. He to date has won more playoff games than your coach. That says something and how ultimately Flores is TBD but as of right now in just 2 years they are a threat to win this division, that says something as well, plus Flores was very instrumental in the pats last SB run shutting down the rams..... right now he is a good coach.

 

Please show me where Saban said his time in Cleveland was the worse of his life and it's because of BB. Because I do not know if you know this, but BB and Saban and great friends they just did a documentary together and yup he didnt do well in Miami and is a still a great college coach that doesn't need to come back to the NFL to prove anything...Harbaugh was better in the pros than he is in college at michgan...

 

and again, how long ago was the cleveland era? i must of missed all those great coaches who came after BB in Cleveland.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Ghost_002!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

For N'Keal it could be a lot things, on the pats fan forum there is a thread dedicated to N'Keal productions or lack there of. He was thrown into the situation with Brady and Brady stop playing nice with young receivers years ago, so that could of hinder his development, BB absolute stinks at noticing wide talent, he whiffed on all those receivers in the draft last year and in 2018..could of had Deebo Samuel and/or AJ Brown, but NOPE! This year its now Cam Newton throwing him the ball and we all can see how bad he is at that, and N'Keal has been injurie a lot as well....in that Harry thread most of us Pats fans think he is a bust.

 

The other wide outs now; Meyers and Damiere Byrd are ok, they aren't bad. They do get open and Cam misses them..i would say they would be 3rd  or 4th option on another team who has a solid wide receiving core. 

 

BB always thinks he can find that hidden gem in some of the most awkward places...d2, and d3 colleges.....like sometimes just buy into the hype man. 

 

and yea for most of the coaches who left to be head coach in other places, yeah they tried too hard to be him and it just doesn't work for them. I have always like Flores and I did like Billy O'Brien everyone else i can careless and I personal think any time that gives Josh McDaniel's another chance would be a complete fool........i do not think he will be a very good coach in the NFL. 

 

Ha on McDaniels......I have friends who are Denver fans, and I live in St Louis, so I'm right with you there.  And then there's verbally taking the job with the Colts then screwing them over at the last moment...I hope the Ponies brass are polishing their brows and going "Phew!" because I think they're better off with Reich.  Couldn't believe he's still getting chances as with the Browns last year, but he is....

 

There are coaches like Daboll where they didn't do too much in their first opportunities and you look at it and say who did they have for talent, who was the HC, what was the overall culture like? and kind of make excuses or at least give them a pass and say let's see what they'll do if they have some talent to develop.  Then there are guys like McDaniels who walked in the door to an 8-8 team in Denver and promptly blew it up because he knew so much better.  Did the same thing with the offense in St Louis.  Matt Patricia, similar with the Lions, 9-7 team into a 6-10, 3-12 team.

 

I guess it's all a matter of expectations.  If you take over a team where the expectation is "we're a pretty good team, we just need that extra "something" at coaching or another few players vs. if you take over a team where you come in with the expectation "Good is the enemy of Great here and we're gonna need to reset and re-boot"

 

From what I saw last night, N'Keal can ball.

 

Tell me about that blond guy on ST - Olszewski or something?  The punt returner.

 

 

 

 

[streetkings01]

1 hour ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Remember one year they got eliminated then the next game they blew out Tebow and the Broncos? Or beat the packers then lose to a bad raiders team? 

 

Oh good times

 

 

Or in 2006 getting to 7-7 after blowing out the Jets & Dolphins back to back by a combined score of 52-13 only to lose to the Vince Young led Titans and end our playoff hopes smh 

[Buffalo Boy]

14 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

You really shouldn't try to tell someone their point is silly and use the phrase "could of" as part of your reasoning.

What could he of done differently?

[4merper4mer]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

What could he of done differently?

Attended English class in fourth grade would have been a start.

Edited December 11, 2020 by 4merper4mer

[Ghost_002!]

44 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ha on McDaniels......I have friends who are Denver fans, and I live in St Louis, so I'm right with you there.  And then there's verbally taking the job with the Colts then screwing them over at the last moment...I hope the Ponies brass are polishing their brows and going "Phew!" because I think they're better off with Reich.  Couldn't believe he's still getting chances as with the Browns last year, but he is....

 

There are coaches like Daboll where they didn't do too much in their first opportunities and you look at it and say who did they have for talent, who was the HC, what was the overall culture like? and kind of make excuses or at least give them a pass and say let's see what they'll do if they have some talent to develop.  Then there are guys like McDaniels who walked in the door to an 8-8 team in Denver and promptly blew it up because he knew so much better.  Did the same thing with the offense in St Louis.  Matt Patricia, similar with the Lions, 9-7 team into a 6-10, 3-12 team.

 

I guess it's all a matter of expectations.  If you take over a team where the expectation is "we're a pretty good team, we just need that extra "something" at coaching or another few players vs. if you take over a team where you come in with the expectation "Good is the enemy of Great here and we're gonna need to reset and re-boot"

 

From what I saw last night, N'Keal can ball.

 

Tell me about that blond guy on ST - Olszewski or something?  The punt returner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

McDaniels...I can also say this. That fool took Tebow to be his QB....that is all anyone needs to know...

 

Buyers remorse on McDaniels..

 

Yea Olszewski, he is one of BB "outta no where" picks. Former D2 CB who played special teams as well.. converted to WR...Almost cut last year (Practice squad last year)

 

Worked hard to be able to play at wide out,...stay on the team as a special teamer...cuz BB loves special teams...idk if he will make a career out of being a punt returner.

 

 there are times he fields punts that  he shouldn't. He is similar to Edelman when he first started in that position in terms off keeps running into big hits and for no reason.

 

And just to understand how training camp on the offense side went for the pats...

 

Per the media he was the only one that looked like an NFL receiver. If that meant anything to anyone asking at that time..

[Ghost_002!]

29 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Attended English class in fourth grade would have been a start.

 

 

Oh love the grammar and spelling Nazis on the internet. Thanks, you're cool. 

[chris heff]

1 hour ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

This team is 6-7 with a sh*t QB. They could of had or could picked up a "bridge" QB and be a threat for the playoffs  because their coaching staff is that strong. BB has proven that time and time again. He gets the most out of his players often, so they could bring in a Jimmy Grapolo (example) and be a threat for this division and maybe the AFC next year, and i am just going off their record now and losing very close games to the bills and seahawks.  

 

Doesn't matter why BIll O'Brien got fired, look at his record. He to date has won more playoff games than your coach. That says something and how ultimately Flores is TBD but as of right now in just 2 years they are a threat to win this division, that says something as well, plus Flores was very instrumental in the pats last SB run shutting down the rams..... right now he is a good coach.

 

Please show me where Saban said his time in Cleveland was the worse of his life and it's because of BB. Because I do not know if you know this, but BB and Saban and great friends they just did a documentary together and yup he didnt do well in Miami and is a still a great college coach that doesn't need to come back to the NFL to prove anything...Harbaugh was better in the pros than he is in college at michgan...

 

and again, how long ago was the cleveland era? i must of missed all those great coaches who came after BB in Cleveland.

 

 

QBs bridge or not are not that easy to find. If they were everyone would do it. 
 

The Bill O’Brien story isn’t defined by his record it is defined by his ego. He thought his teams won because of him, he traded arguably the best WR in football for a box of tape. It is mind boggling in its arrogant stupidity.

 

The Cleveland franchise for which Belichick worked moved to Baltmore in 1996 one year after Belichick was fired. John Harbaugh is a pretty good coach. Their former GM, Ozzie Newsome was inducted to the hall as a player and may very well be inducted a second time as GM.

 

[LittleSammy]

15 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

My Christmas wish for NE is 7-9 forever.

My wish is we actually beat them twice in the same season before declaring them dead.

[Ghost_002!]

14 minutes ago, chris heff said:

QBs bridge or not are not that easy to find. If they were everyone would do it. 
 

The Bill O’Brien story isn’t defined by his record it is defined by his ego. He thought his teams won because of him, he traded arguably the best WR in football for a box of tape. It is mind boggling in its arrogant stupidity.

 

The Cleveland franchise for which Belichick worked moved to Baltmore in 1996 one year after Belichick was fired. John Harbaugh is a pretty good coach. Their former GM, Ozzie Newsome was inducted to the hall as a player and may very well be inducted a second time as GM.

 

 

? So Miami got lucky using Ryan Fitzpatrick being just one game out of the AFC east? Chiefs got lucky with Alex Smith before Mahomes, Colts are doing ok after Luck retired. (Note i said ok...not implying they are SB contenders)

 

you can look around the league and see teams with feasible QBs that the patriots can use to be competitive 

 

Again they are 6-7 right now with sh*tting QB play....a "bridge QB" could keep that competitive enough. Its not hard to see that.

 

Who cares what his "story" was....Bill O'Brien the GM got Bill.O'Brien the coach fired. 

 

How long ago Cleveland was for BB...you are just going to ignore everything else that tells you he is a great coach. This year alone spells that out to anyone looking objectively.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Ghost_002!

[JohnNord]

16 hours ago, Success said:

It really struck me watching them play tonight:

 

 - Huge uncertainty at QB

 - Good defense & special teams, good RB

 - All-pro punter

 - Can't consistently score points

 - JAG WR corps

 - Occasional amazing game to give fans hope, but in general maintaining a near-.500 record 

 - Being just good enough to not make the playoffs & avoid the top 10 in the draft

 

It's been weird reading their boards, too - the same playoff possibility conversations we used to have at this point:  if x team loses twice, and beats y team, but if y team beats z team, etc.  

 

I must say - I'm liking the role reversal.

At 6-7 they are very much “in the hunt” in December.  If that’s not drought-era Bills I don’t know what is!

Edited December 11, 2020 by JohnNord

[dpberr]

I'd say the 2020 Patriots are the 2000 Bills.  

 

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

What can we expect from the Pats in the near (1-3 year) future?  It might be close to what the Drought Era Bills were:

 

-I think, overall, they are a SLIGHTLY above average team.  If I had to 'power rank' them in the NFL now, they would be someplace between 12-16.  Keep in mind they actually DID lose a ton from Covid opt outs on the defensive side of the ball, probably more than anyone else...and they had some key injuries this year too.  Without that would they be a top team?  No, but they will be getting 'more' back next year than most other teams.

 

-On the other hand, the D unit is aging.  Even with those players back, they have a good percentage of their key D players on the wrong side of 28 years of age. (most studies say a typical Defensive player production, especially in the back 7, drop off between age 28-30)

 

So, the biggest thing that may make you think they are like the drought era Bills is.....their biggest question has to do with QB.  There doesn't appear to be a long term star QB available for the taking for them...and they are going to likely be drafting in an area where they will miss out on the top prospects.

 

So, they are likely to be that team that is 'in the hunt' toward the end of the year...until they get their next great QB...who knows when that will be.

 

 

If BB stays he will have 2 choices on QBs.  Get a 2nd tier guy (Winston, Dalton, Trubisky, Brissett, etc) or get one in the draft.

To get one in the draft will require him to trade a great player to a team to move up (as Beane did in 2018) and then with his limited

picks in this year draft (no 3rd due to spying) trade next years 1st to move up the rest to get one.  Either way it's a huge risk that we all know about.

 

Just because you get one doesn't mean he will work out.  Then again he can think he can make Trubisky a star.

 

5 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

Why would the vets and opt outs come.back?  There's no reason to take BB's ass chewing film sessions and Patriot Way BS if they aren't a contender.  And they are not a contender let alone a dynasty anymore.  Retire, or go somewhere else and get paid what the market will bear.

 

@Ghost_002! has already chimed in on his beliefs but he mainly is talking about players still under contract.  One of which needs to be traded

to move up in the draft.  I'm going to use a UFA like Thuney as the "canary in the coal mine".

If he signs a long term deal maybe they keep their UFAs................if he walks..................!

Without a QB will other FAs want to go to Boston?  All questions that won't be answered until May 2021.

 

As to the 17 year thing, a lot of bad has to happen to get there but the next 2-3 years is no sure thing for the Pats*.

When BB does leave the question will be, "What assets are left" and then who takes over the GM/HC?

A miss there takes them out 3-4 more years.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 hours ago, Virgil said:

How will the Patriots draft picks pan out?  The Pats are not attracting FA's like they used to because they can't promise Super Bowl contention anymore.  The hoodie's draft results have been less than stellar.  They need a new QB and offensive weapons.  As we Bills fans know, that's not an easy thing to find.  If Billy can't get the right guy, they will be in trouble for a while.

from what I hear They draft poorly 

 

 

[HardyBoy]

16 hours ago, NickelCity said:

All it takes is one good draft pick. I hope it never comes. ***** em.

 

Is the secret to get a quality qb while not bottoming out to trade really good players you aren't going to keep with two years left on their rookie deals for first and second round picks?

[dave mcbride]

Speaking of the Patriots: https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/12/10/ex-chaplain-jack-easterby-houston-texans-chaos-after-power-struggle-daily-cover

 

My favorite paragraph:

 

While Easterby aspires to be a transformational leader, guided by religion and morality, people who have worked alongside him in Houston have increasingly come to see him as transactional. Says a colleague: “If you combine a faith-healing televangelist with Littlefinger, you’d get Jack Easterby.”

Edited December 11, 2020 by dave mcbride