Canceling student loans

[Motorin']

On 12/11/2020 at 9:12 AM, shoshin said:

 

On what moral basis? 

 

People took out loans. I'd like my mortgage forgiven too. 

On the basis that the lender didn't actually have 90% of the money they lent, they created it by lending it, and as a result there is 90% more debt owed in our current economy than there is actual currency. 

[Motorin']

@shoshin you laugh, but that's literal the moral basis of debt forgiveness for over 2,000. In Biblical times, every 7 years partial debts were forgiven and every 70 years all debts were forgiven. Also the reason why interest was deemed immoral, because when you create money by lending it there is always going to be more money owed than currency. 

 

Economists are terrible historians, they tend to use a priori assumptions about how the world used to work. The anthropologists that have explored the way money has actually worked will tell you that  credit based monetary systems are old as dirt. And that in many states debt is uncollectible after 7 years, and that bankruptcy exists historically as a solution to the problem if there being more debt than actual money. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Motorin'

[mead107]

3 hours ago, TBBills said:

You are a Trump cult member thinking of doing corrupt things.... Typical

 

What's wrong with your other forum? Too many crazies?

 

 

not at at.  so Biden has been perfect in his time in office? So you only see things one way.
You’re blind to all the Democrats misconduct. 

typical of trump haters. 
 

 

[TBBills]

Just now, mead107 said:

not at at.  so Biden has been perfect in his time in office? So you only see things one way.
You’re blind to all the Democrats misconduct. 

typical of trump haters. 
 

 

Biden hasn't been president yet, Trump is still ***** things up.

[mead107]

3 minutes ago, TBBills said:

Biden hasn't been president yet, Trump is still ***** things up.

I have never said he is perfect.  
I have voted for Democrats.  
 

I was hoping Bernie would be the Democrats pick. 🤠
 

I may have voted for yang. 
 

it would be great to see some young people run for president. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by mead107

[TBBills]

10 minutes ago, mead107 said:

I have never said he is perfect.  
I have voted for Democrats.  
 

I was hoping Bernie would be the Democrats pick. 🤠
 

I may have voted for yang. 
 

it would be great to see some young people run for president. 

I agree with this, no party is without corruption.

 

We definitely need to get younger all around our government. We have a 78 and 80 year old leading our senate and just toying with the American people over EGO... They are so far gone from todays America they think they can sit on something for months on end while our country struggles, and they seem happy to just sit and pretend like they are actually working on something.

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by TBBills

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, TBBills said:

I agree with this, no party is without corruption.

 

We definitely need to get younger all around our government. We have a 78 and 80 year old leading our senate and just toying with the American people over EGO... They are so far gone from todays America they think they can sit on something for month on end while our country struggles and they seem happy to just sit and pretend like they are actually working on something.

 

How cool! We FINALLY agree on something. 👍

[mead107]

Just now, TBBills said:

I agree with this, no party is without corruption.

 

We definitely need to get younger all around our government. We have a 78 and 80 year old leading our senate and just toying with the American people over EGO... They are so far gone from todays America they think they can sit on something for months on end while our country struggles and they seem happy to just sit and pretend like they are actually working on something.

 

Agree 100 percent. 
I would love to see term limits for Congress and the senate. 
maybe 15 -20 years for Supreme Court. 
 

need young people for fresh ideas  

 

just my opinion. 

[Doc Brown]

14 hours ago, mead107 said:

Agree 100 percent. 
I would love to see term limits for Congress and the senate. 
maybe 15 -20 years for Supreme Court. 
 

need young people for fresh ideas  

 

just my opinion. 

Sure about that?

 

[mead107]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Sure about that?

 

Maybe we can weed out the wacky ones. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:49 AM, SoCal Deek said:

You really have to be kidding me, right Tibs? We’re going to promote this behavior? You don’t even have to declare bankruptcy? What will be the purpose of a loan? Who will ever offer them? What about people like me who saved up and paid for my kids education?

So as a real solution...why not do the right thing...and simply have the government refinance the debt to lower payments over a longer period? Or require some sort of public service to pay off the debt? If you don’t have a good paying job, then work construction on an infrastructure project like back in the the WPA era. At least we’d get a new bridge out of it. And the young people would learn a skill.

Part of the challenge in the country is that we are moving away from the concept of doing “the right thing”.  There was a time when the question “Have you no shame?” meant something, but that’s sort of in the rear view mirror at this point.   As many supporters of a Biden Buyout point out—there’s easy money available for bailouts—why shouldn’t they get paid? 
 

Now, we speak about supposedly highly educated people, often graduates of extraordinarily expensive schools, righteously indignant that they have been victimized by the choices they made.  It always makes me chuckle when I hear the spin about how smart Obama/Biden voters are, yet given the chance they line up at the educational homeless shelter quickly and orderly for the handout offered. 
 

The interesting part is how they pitch what amounts to a government handout funded by others as a “stimulus”.  They may not be very good at math, and might have a tendency toward making really poor and reckless financial decisions, but they are marketing wizards on the rebrand.  
 

You also have to give it to Biden.  He knew the thought of absolving folks of debt is a powerful aphrodisiac.  Millions likely voted for him just because of it.  
 

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Part of the challenge in the country is that we are moving away from the concept of doing “the right thing”.  There was a time when the question “Have you no shame?” meant something, but that’s sort of in the rear view mirror at this point.   As many supporters of a Biden Buyout point out—there’s easy money available for bailouts—why shouldn’t they get paid? 
 

Now, we speak about supposedly highly educated people, often graduates of extraordinarily expensive schools, righteously indignant that they have been victimized by the choices they made.  It always makes me chuckle when I hear the spin about how smart Obama/Biden voters are, yet given the chance they line up at the educational homeless shelter quickly and orderly for the handout offered. 
 

The interesting part is how they pitch what amounts to a government handout funded by others as a “stimulus”.  They may not be very good at math, and might have a tendency toward making really poor and reckless financial decisions, but they are marketing wizards on the rebrand.  
 

You also have to give it to Biden.  He knew the thought of absolving folks of debt is a powerful aphrodisiac.  Millions likely voted for him just because of it.  
 

 

I always laugh that the housing bubble was caused by ‘predatory lenders preying on the disadvantaged and less educated’....now less than ten years later we apparently have America’s best and brightest falling prey to the same predators? Buyouts for EVERYONE! 

[shoshin]

20 hours ago, Motorin' said:

@shoshin you laugh, but that's literal the moral basis of debt forgiveness for over 2,000. In Biblical times, every 7 years partial debts were forgiven and every 70 years all debts were forgiven. Also the reason why interest was deemed immoral, because when you create money by lending it there is always going to be more money owed than currency. 

 

That's a lot of wackiness. 

 

Choosing to accept to pay interest is a choice. It's as immoral as eating the third slice of pizza. Anyone can choose--or not--to incur interest. It's not forced on anyone. 

 

And if you accept the obligation of a loan with interest, that's on you the borrower. We live in a time when, thankfully, we don't jail people for unpaid loans. But the obligation for not paying is financial, reputation, pain, and some loans just follow you. 

 

20 hours ago, Motorin' said:

Economists are terrible historians, they tend to use a priori assumptions about how the world used to work. The anthropologists that have explored the way money has actually worked will tell you that  credit based monetary systems are old as dirt. And that in many states debt is uncollectible after 7 years, and that bankruptcy exists historically as a solution to the problem if there being more debt than actual money. 

 

So what? Again: People are free to contract or not. I am not paying cash for my new car and am happy that Toyota is giving me 1.9%. That's my choice and it works for me. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, shoshin said:

 

That's a lot of wackiness. 

 

Choosing to accept to pay interest is a choice. It's as immoral as eating the third slice of pizza. Anyone can choose--or not--to incur interest. It's not forced on anyone. 

 

And if you accept the obligation of a loan with interest, that's on you the borrower. We live in a time when, thankfully, we don't jail people for unpaid loans. But the obligation for not paying is financial, reputation, pain, and some loans just follow you. 

 

 

So what? Again: People are free to contract or not. I am not paying cash for my new car and am happy that Toyota is giving me 1.9%. That's my choice and it works for me. 

Correct! Both the lender and the borrower sign the contract. Both are making a commitment. It’s a simple concept really. 

[shoshin]

6 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Part of the challenge in the country is that we are moving away from the concept of doing “the right thing”.  There was a time when the question “Have you no shame?” meant something, but that’s sort of in the rear view mirror at this point.   As many supporters of a Biden Buyout point out—there’s easy money available for bailouts—why shouldn’t they get paid? 
 

Now, we speak about supposedly highly educated people, often graduates of extraordinarily expensive schools, righteously indignant that they have been victimized by the choices they made.  It always makes me chuckle when I hear the spin about how smart Obama/Biden voters are, yet given the chance they line up at the educational homeless shelter quickly and orderly for the handout offered. 
 

The interesting part is how they pitch what amounts to a government handout funded by others as a “stimulus”.  They may not be very good at math, and might have a tendency toward making really poor and reckless financial decisions, but they are marketing wizards on the rebrand.  
 

You also have to give it to Biden.  He knew the thought of absolving folks of debt is a powerful aphrodisiac.  Millions likely voted for him just because of it.  
 

 

Yeah, there was a time when defaulting on an obligation/promise was something to be ashamed of and that others would call them out on. Now if you don't pay a debt, welch on a bet, etc, many don't care. It's up to you and me to raise the standard. 

[WEATHER DOT COM]

Correct me if I am wrong but if you work for the feds for 10 years and make 10 years of payments, you can apply to have your federal loans forgiven.

 

For those who are anti-forgiveness, do you want to cancel this policy?

[shoshin]

2 minutes ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

Correct me if I am wrong but if you work for the feds for 10 years and make 10 years of payments, you can apply to have your federal loans forgiven.

 

For those who are anti-forgiveness, do you want to cancel this policy?

 

No--but again--that's part of a deal that is offered. 

 

If the government wants to exchange military or other service time in exchange for $$, that's a totally different thing than just burning up the obligation and passing payment of it on to me. 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

Correct me if I am wrong but if you work for the feds for 10 years and make 10 years of payments, you can apply to have your federal loans forgiven.

 

For those who are anti-forgiveness, do you want to cancel this policy?

Why would that program be canceled? If those were the terms of the loan when offered then those were the terms. Every loan has terms. 

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

Yeah, there was a time when defaulting on an obligation/promise was something to be ashamed of and that others would call them out on. Now if you don't pay a debt, welch on a bet, etc, many don't care. It's up to you and me to raise the standard. 

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

That's a lot of wackiness. 

 

Choosing to accept to pay interest is a choice. It's as immoral as eating the third slice of pizza. Anyone can choose--or not--to incur interest. It's not forced on anyone. 

 

And if you accept the obligation of a loan with interest, that's on you the borrower. We live in a time when, thankfully, we don't jail people for unpaid loans. But the obligation for not paying is financial, reputation, pain, and some loans just follow you. 

 

 

So what? Again: People are free to contract or not. I am not paying cash for my new car and am happy that Toyota is giving me 1.9%. That's my choice and it works for me. 

 

This is only true if the roulette wheel is not rigged. But the way that money is created in our current system is the definition of rigged. There is always 10 times more debt than money to pay the debt, and the way the system is set up, new money is created to pay off the existing debt by lending more money at interest. 

 

The US Public Debt is currently 27 trillion. Private citizen and us business debt is nearly 50 trillion. How many US dollars are there to pay off that debt? It's less than 20 Trillion. And in order to create the 60 or 70 Trillion needed, the debt will swell to 100's of trillions. 

 

It is unsustainable, and it is the reason why there needs to be a debt reset.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

21 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

Yeah, there was a time when defaulting on an obligation/promise was something to be ashamed of and that others would call them out on. Now if you don't pay a debt, welch on a bet, etc, many don't care. It's up to you and me to raise the standard. 

I’m powerless brother, relatively speaking.  I’m sensible enough to recognize and support the need for a well-defined and compassionate safety net, proud enough to believe that my investment in my children was important to their development, and apparently foolish enough to not play the hand the right way given the buyout soon to happen.  
 

For all the talk about a pro-Biden vote was really an ‘anti-Trump’ rallying crying, we know with certainty that millions of Biden voters stand to benefit from the Sopranos-esque protection racket about to play out.  And, likely, the Harris plan to follow when Biden taps out in 12-24 months.  In fact, it’s highly probable that was the most important factor in a Biden presidency.  Everyone has a price. 
 

The best I can do is when called by one of the SUNY schools for a parental handout in support of the next crop of students to tell them to call the White House after Jan 20. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by leh-nerd skin-erd