AJ Klein: Tremaine Edmunds "a True Mike"

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I think Edumonds needs good play in front of him to be effective. But when he has that good play he is a beast because he is very good in coverage over the middle and out on the flats. He is able to sniff plays out and make the right read when he has some room and good play in front of him. I think Edumonds will be a long term piece to this defense but McD needs to have a good one tech in front of him at all times. 

 

1) He's actually really struggled in coverage this season.   Blown assignments,   not turning his head and always seeming to be caught totally off guard when the ball conveniently bounces to him.   As I said he has a 132+ passer rating allowed and has given up 4 TD passes himself.    Last year that PR number was in the 70's.   You almost have to wonder if teams have looked at the film and just don't fear throwing at him because they don't think he will make a game changing play on the ball. 

 

2) Sniffing plays out are where his game has been lacking for 3 seasons.    Those are the kind of situations that result in game changing plays that he has almost NEVER made.

He's played better the past few weeks but still the big plays have been non-existent in his game.    

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[Don Otreply]

On 12/5/2020 at 9:48 AM, matter2003 said:

 

Something we forget...run stuffing middle LBs are probably gone forever...Edmunds' physical skill set is likely what virtually all teams are looking for

This^^^
 

The folk complaining incessantly are thinking five and ten years a goes MLBs, it is they who are not keeping up with what is happening in the pro game, likely it is the three yards and a cloud of dust gang.

Remember, the players coming out of college don’t play “pro style football” they play college style football, it’s “mostly”  spread style offenses VS the defenses made to counter those offenses. The pro game is changing to accommodate those players skill sets, it is what it is, get used to it or live with being disappointed. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1) He's actually really struggled in coverage this season.   Blown assignments,   not turning his head and always seeming to be caught totally off guard when the ball conveniently bounces to him.   As I said he has a 132+ passer rating allowed and has given up 4 TD passes himself.    Last year that PR number was in the 70's.   You almost have to wonder if teams have looked at the film and just don't fear throwing at him because they don't think he will make a game changing play on the ball. 

 

2) Sniffing plays out are where his game has been lacking for 3 seasons.    Those are the kind of situations that result in game changing plays that he has almost NEVER made.

He's played better the past few weeks but still the big plays have been non-existent in his game.    

 

 

I thought he made a nice play on the keenan allen TD - was a really nice throw by herbert though.  

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

I thought he made a nice play on the keenan allen TD - was a really nice throw by herbert though.  

 

 

He didn't actually "make" a play though.......he was right there in plenty of time but he never located or anticipated the ball.

 

Which is exactly the kind of thing that I talk about when I say he is uninstinctive at that position and why I wonder if teams are just starting to throw at him more knowing that the film shows he doesn't locate or make plays on the football.     

 

MLB in this defense should be more than what they've gotten from Preston Brown and Tremaine Edmunds.

 

Need game changing plays and turnovers.

 

At the same time, his talent would be better suited outside IMO.  

 

It's not uncommon for otherwise successful coaching staffs to play certain players out of position for years.   The Bills stubbornly played Cornelius Bennett at OLB until his last season when they got wise and signed an actual pass rusher to play OLB and moved Bennett inside(where he was tremendous).    Bennett lacked the pass rusher build.....he was built to run and hit......... and OT's had basically learned to just herd him outside and he'd run himself way out of the play.   He had amazingly averaged just 5.5 sacks per year in the previous 6 seasons rushing opposite Bruce Smith.......and Bryce Paup immediately put up 17.5 sacks.    

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

 

The folk complaining incessantly are thinking five and ten years a goes MLBs, it is they who are not keeping up with what is happening in the pro game, likely it is the three yards and a cloud of dust gang.

 

 

Again..........it's not just the run game............he has been very poor in pass defense thru 11 games this season.     Last season he was good there.   But he might have "Thomas Smith" syndrome........the Bills shutdown CB who teams lost the fear of throwing at when they realized he couldn't intercept a ball to save his life.    When the worst that can happen is a pass defensed......that's not a deterrent. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

9 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

This^^^
 

The folk complaining incessantly are thinking five and ten years a goes MLBs, it is they who are not keeping up with what is happening in the pro game, likely it is the three yards and a cloud of dust gang.

Remember, the players coming out of college don’t play “pro style football” they play college style football, it’s “mostly”  spread style offenses VS the defenses made to counter those offenses. The pro game is changing to accommodate those players skill sets, it is what it is, get used to it or live with being disappointed. 
 

Go Bills!!!

there are a few individuals here who have absolutely no clue how the current NFL or the Bills defense actually work.
 

You won’t convince them that defenses work differently.

 

You won’t convince them that the MLB isn’t responsible for chasing the RB all over the field every down, and they are Don’t understand LB responsibility in zone converges schemes.

 

there are even those talking about blown coverages when they have no idea what the coverage was supposed to be. 
 

I recently started using ignore for these and the quality of Post content has gotten much better. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 12/5/2020 at 4:43 PM, Ya Digg? said:

As good as those players were, their style wouldn’t get them in the field the way the game is played today. They had to be physical because they weren’t athletic enough to keep up with the running backs back then. I have watched enough film of these guys to think they didn’t play the game the right way-the amount of cheap shots, late hits, etc that they would give so guys wouldn’t go o we the middle to me is embarrassing. But to each their own, I would want my linebackers to be able to go from sideline to sideline as well as being able to cover someone in the passing game. Those guys couldn’t do that

the game has changed a lot. Speed and range matter more than ever in the middle. You’re 100% correct that those old school LBs would be two down backers in very traditional 3-4 defenses at best if on the field at all. 

[WideNine]

 

I don't think we need to rush to judgement on why folks felt that Edmunds was struggling at Mike - as the article said, The highest single-game grade he registered in his first 7 games was a 55.5.

 

He has improved over his last few games and I think we all hope that trend continues.

[BillsToast]

He's a perfect stat guy who looks like he might make it but when you watch him he's nowhere near the ball when the game counts. He's a master of a tackle 3-5 yards after the LOS. 

 

Reminds me of London Fletcher in his last year with us. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by BillsToast

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Again..........it's not just the run game............he has been very poor in pass defense thru 11 games this season.     Last season he was good there.   But he might have "Thomas Smith" syndrome........the Bills shutdown CB who teams lost the fear of throwing at when they realized he couldn't intercept a ball to save his life.    When the worst that can happen is a pass defensed......that's not a deterrent. 

He has had a shoulder injury thru most of the season, it has really just healed up enough for him to play well recently, in fact, a large number of staters and rotation guys in the D were out or playing injured for an extended period as well, the D is finally getting healthy. 
 

Go Bills !!!

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

there are a few individuals here who have absolutely no clue how the current NFL or the Bills defense actually work.
 

You won’t convince them that defenses work differently.

 

You won’t convince them that the MLB isn’t responsible for chasing the RB all over the field every down, and they are Don’t understand LB responsibility in zone converges schemes.

 

there are even those talking about blown coverages when they have no idea what the coverage was supposed to be. 
 

I recently started using ignore for these and the quality of Post content has gotten much better. 

Haven’t put anyone on ignore yet, I guess I should re-think that...

 

Go Bills!!!

[LabattBlue]

I'll give him credit...that 4th down goal line stop was a thing of beauty...and quite unexpected considering in that same goal line set of downs, Edmunds diagnoses the play correctly, hits the correct gap, and runs right past the RB.

 

His play has definitely improved the last couple weeks.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Back the Blue

[transplantbillsfan]

Edmunds was pretty fantastic yesterday.  He was always disruptive in the passing game, but my big knock on him was always his weakness in the running game.  He always looked like a big man who didn't like to hit.  He's really pulled a 180 in the running game over the last few weeks.

[Franco_92]

24 minutes ago, Back the Blue said:

I'll give him credit...that 4th down goal line stop was a thing of beauty...and quite unexpected considering in that same goal line set of downs, Edmunds diagnoses the play correctly, hits the correct gap, and runs right past the RB.

 

His play has definitely improved the last couple weeks.

That play was actually a success. He filled his gap, so the RB went to the A gap, and was stuffed by Hyde for no gain/a slight loss.

With Tremaine's momentum and angle that were required to fill it, it is unreasonable to have expected him to stone that RB cold. He did his job perfectly on that play

[Royale with Cheese]

Edmunds has crept into the top 20 in total tackles in the NFL.

[Thurman#1]

Yup. He got healthy. The rest of the D did too and they started working together ...  and he's playing extremely well again.

 

Golly, who could have predicted this? Outside anyone with a lick of sense.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Thurman#1

[thenorthremembers]

Still not a big Edmunds guy.  Thought he played lights out against Seattle, Arizona, and the Chargers but the last two weeks he hasnt blown me away.   The defense as a whole is playing a ton better, and he is part of that, but I thought he struggled in some ways last night.   He isn't a great blitzer up the middle, saw him get blown up bad a few times.   The JuJu play wasn't pretty, but it is what it is.

 

Tremaine is serviceable, but he is a long ways off from being a consistently good to great middle linebacker.   He simply doesnt impact the game enough.    I am thankful he isnt playing as bad as he was when he was injured, but IMO he still has a ways to go.

[Thurman#1]

On 12/7/2020 at 2:48 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

Haha. What should be say? That Edmunds doesn’t read things as fast as way less talentedMKB and could be an absolute monster at OLB.

 

 

 

No, but again, that's a dumb argument. If that's the way he felt, here's what he should have said, "The guy is a warrior. Tough. Just the guy I want to go into battle with." Or "He gives 110% effort 110% of the time. Tre is freaky." Or "This kid has an awesome future ahead of him." I'm sure any of us could come up with 100 of these generic, "I want him in an alley fight with me" cliches. That's what he'd have said.

 

But what actually happened is that he went out of his way to be specific about the fact that he's a true Mike, even though he wasn't asked about which position he should play.

 

The reason he did that is real, real, real simple. It's what he thinks.

 

The whole "I know what he's thinking, he actually means the opposite of what he's saying because you can't say what you actually think" argument is complete crap. Of course you can't throw your guy under the bus. But you can throw out the Crash Davisisms, the locker room cliches, by the bucketload and by the hour. Those are what you hear when a guy doesn't want to say what he thinks.

 

If a guy's praise is wildly general, it's possible he's not saying what he means. Extremely specific praise means he's saying what he means. Pretending that extremely specific praise can't be avoided is pure horsecrap. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Shaw66]

On 12/7/2020 at 5:15 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Again..........it's not just the run game............he has been very poor in pass defense thru 11 games this season.     Last season he was good there.   But he might have "Thomas Smith" syndrome........the Bills shutdown CB who teams lost the fear of throwing at when they realized he couldn't intercept a ball to save his life.    When the worst that can happen is a pass defensed......that's not a deterrent. 

Bado -  You've said a lot in this post and others that is true.  Still, I think you're missing the bigger picture.  

 

On pass D, for whatLever reasons, earlier this season he simply wasn't in the play as well as he had been in the past.  He was getting beat.   As you say, even earlier, when he was with his man, he wasn't very good at actually defending the pass - it generally was a completion and a tackle.  Similarly, he seems to get close to a lot more INTs than he actually makes.   But I think you misperceive all of that, because the fact is that he's around the play in the pass defense a lot more than the average MLB.   He drops better and he gets wide better than the average MLB.   Just being around the play, he tends to be disruptive.   If nothing else, he's going to tend to cause the QB to look elsewhere.  After all, the league leaders in passes defensed only get 20, and the really good corners, like Tre, only get half of that, because teams won't throw at him.   So I think you're criticiaing Edmunds for not making plays that we shouldn't expect him to make.   Still, I agree that he needs to learn to play the ball in the air better. 

 

As for the run game, he isn't and never will be a thumper.  He's improved a lot lately in staying clear of the wash and in getting into the correct gap.   If he's doing that and even slowing the runner, he's doing his job - not as well as you'd like, but doing it.  

 

Put it all together, and Edmunds has to do more if he's going to have a Hall of Fame career.  But if he's going to be a solid performer in the middle of a good defense, he's already not far off.  

 

 

44 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, but again, that's a dumb argument. If that's the way he felt, here's what he should have said, "The guy is a warrior. Tough. Just the guy I want to go into battle with." Or "He gives 110% effort 110% of the time. Tre is freaky." Or "This kid has an awesome future ahead of him." I'm sure any of us could come up with 100 of these generic, "I want him in an alley fight with me" cliches. That's what he'd have said.

 

But what actually happened is that he went out of his way to be specific about the fact that he's a true Mike, even though he wasn't asked about which position he should play.

 

The reason he did that is real, real, real simple. It's what he thinks.

 

The whole "I know what he's thinking, he actually means the opposite of what he's saying because you can't say what you actually think" argument is complete crap. Of course you can't throw your guy under the bus. But you can throw out the Crash Davisisms, the locker room cliches, by the bucketload and by the hour. Those are what you hear when a guy doesn't want to say what he thinks.

 

If a guy's praise is wildly general, it's possible he's not saying what he means. Extremely specific praise means he's saying what he means. Pretending that extremely specific praise can't be avoided is pure horsecrap. 

Man, I wish people would read this and learn from it.  I've been saying this for years.  Thanks. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Bado -  You've said a lot in this post and others that is true.  Still, I think you're missing the bigger picture.  

 

On pass D, for whatLever reasons, earlier this season he simply wasn't in the play as well as he had been in the past.  He was getting beat.   As you say, even earlier, when he was with his man, he wasn't very good at actually defending the pass - it generally was a completion and a tackle.  Similarly, he seems to get close to a lot more INTs than he actually makes.   But I think you misperceive all of that, because the fact is that he's around the play in the pass defense a lot more than the average MLB.   He drops better and he gets wide better than the average MLB.   Just being around the play, he tends to be disruptive.   If nothing else, he's going to tend to cause the QB to look elsewhere.  After all, the league leaders in passes defensed only get 20, and the really good corners, like Tre, only get half of that, because teams won't throw at him.   So I think you're criticiaing Edmunds for not making plays that we shouldn't expect him to make.   Still, I agree that he needs to learn to play the ball in the air better. 

 

As for the run game, he isn't and never will be a thumper.  He's improved a lot lately in staying clear of the wash and in getting into the correct gap.   If he's doing that and even slowing the runner, he's doing his job - not as well as you'd like, but doing it.  

 

Put it all together, and Edmunds has to do more if he's going to have a Hall of Fame career.  But if he's going to be a solid performer in the middle of a good defense, he's already not far off.  

 

 

 

It's not a matter of misperception.  Just because you are in the area of a catch does not make you the targeted defender so perception implies that it's not at all a statistical factor.

 

That is where his 123 passer rating allowed certainly reflects his lack of impact in coverage.

 

And who are the *average* MLB's and why is a MLB drafted in the middle of round one expected to have "average" players as comps?

 

There are a lot of name MLB's in the NFL.    Fred Warner, for instance,  has a 63 passer rating allowed.    A lot of the MLB's that most would consider better tacklers and much more physical in run defense than Edmunds are in the 70-100 range in passer rating allowed.    

 

The question isn't whether Edmunds is an average MLB.........he plays in a defense designed to showcase the MLB so he's going to get some stats............the question is whether his talent/potential are muted by playing a position he isn't particularly instinctive at.

 

 And yes,  I know that some will argue that he must be a top MLB because the defense has been good with him.........but they had a near top ranked defense with Preston Brown at MLB under Schwartz.   You don't need a stud MLB to be successful on defense.

 

Modern NFL defenses are only as strong as their ability to defend the pass..............so MLB is well down on the priority list of spending money and personnel chips on.    Good defense is mostly about coverage and pass rush.

 

Having a MLB who can do everything well is like having a catcher who can hit in baseball...........not critical but it's a big plus.    Edmunds hasn't really been that + player at MLB so far.   You can't pay him $15M per year to do what he's been doing..........which is ultimately why I think they(and he and his agent) need to see if he can become a player at a more important and expensive to fill edge position.   Make him a guy who can pressure the passer and set the edge and ALSO drop back in coverage or take a great TE out of the gameplan and he then has the potential to become a player of far greater impact.

Edited December 14, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[Magox]

Tremaine has just about regained his pro bowl level play of last year.  The injury really affected play but he has healed and his physicality has taken it up a notch and he’s been all over the field.