B-Man Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: The Maine law was structured to ensure that all kids had access to education but prohibited religious schools from their program because they believed taxpayer money subsidizing religious education would be tantamount to a violation of the first amendment (which prohibits the government from enacting laws respecting the establishment of a religion). AND.........that is exactly what the court ruled was unconstitutional. The state’s constitution requires Maine to deliver a “free” education to every school-age child, to fix this gap, the legislature created a voucher program but set it up so that parents could not apply the reimbursements to religious schools. If that sounds familiar, it should. The court disposed of similar cases in Trinity Lutheran and Espinoza over the last few years, striking down so-called Blaine Amendments that explicitly disfavored Catholic schools in particular. In this case as well, this was a “neutral benefit program” for parents to use in their choice of schools in the lack of any public education options. And as such, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote, that crosses the line into an infringement on religious expression, especially since the legislature deliberately added this restriction after the program had been in operation for years It is Freedom OF Religion in the constitution, not freedom FROM religion. Edited June 21, 2022 by B-Man 1
ChiGoose Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 12 minutes ago, B-Man said: AND.........that is exactly what the court ruled was unconstitutional. The state’s constitution requires Maine to deliver a “free” education to every school-age child, to fix this gap, the legislature created a voucher program but set it up so that parents could not apply the reimbursements to religious schools. If that sounds familiar, it should. The court disposed of similar cases in Trinity Lutheran and Espinoza over the last few years, striking down so-called Blaine Amendments that explicitly disfavored Catholic schools in particular. In this case as well, this was a “neutral benefit program” for parents to use in their choice of schools in the lack of any public education options. And as such, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote, that crosses the line into an infringement on religious expression, especially since the legislature deliberately added this restriction after the program had been in operation for years It is Freedom OF Religion in the constitution, not freedom FROM religion. I may have missed it but was the issue that there were no schools that met the standards so they had to go to a religious school? It doesn’t look like that from a brief scan of the arguments. From what I can tell from the certified question is that the parents *opted* to use sectarian schools, not that they had to. That is a VERY different argument than saying the only school they could go to in the area was sectarian. In that case, they have a good argument for that a lack of subsidy would be denying their right to an education. But if it’s a just a choice (i.e. there are local schools that qualify but they preferred a religious one), then what we are seeing here is that taxpayers must subsidize religious education. That would NOT be a ruling to ensure access to education because they had access to education at a qualifying school they opted not to use. Also, the Constitution actually guarantees both freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. This ruling means that Catholics may have to pay money to Muslim schools or Jews may have to pay money to Hindu schools. And they would have no say in the matter. It also continues the entanglement of the government into religious affairs.
B-Man Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 So, basically, “fund children, not schools.” Children would no longer be prisoners sentenced to attend garbage schools because of where they live. In a sane world, this news would be celebrated by everyone. But in the crazy world we live in, CNN is flipping out: Sounds familiar............🤔 Then again, CNN’s not all that concerned about what’s actually in the Constitution. Just like they’re not all that concerned with what’s actually happening to real people outside of their cozy little bubble. If there’s one thing elitists gravitate toward, it’s other elitists. Keep those poor kids in their own schools. *Note I didn't use quotes, because it's not a real quote. That would be against board policy. .
ChiGoose Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, B-Man said: So, basically, “fund children, not schools.” Children would no longer be prisoners sentenced to attend garbage schools because of where they live. In a sane world, this news would be celebrated by everyone. But in the crazy world we live in, CNN is flipping out: Sounds familiar............🤔 Then again, CNN’s not all that concerned about what’s actually in the Constitution. Just like they’re not all that concerned with what’s actually happening to real people outside of their cozy little bubble. If there’s one thing elitists gravitate toward, it’s other elitists. Keep those poor kids in their own schools. *Note I didn't use quotes, because it's not a real quote. That would be against board policy. . 1. I don’t give a ***** about what CNN says and I have no idea why it would be relevant to the discussion. 2. I think there is a decent debate to be had around education but I’ve always held what I believe to be the small “c” conservative view of the government only providing public education and not getting entangled in religion. From what I can tell, there was no issue with the quality of the other schools. And even if there were, there’s an argument for making those schools better instead of continuing to move funds away from them. I have absolutely zero problem with parents choosing religious schools for their kids. My parents did that for me. What I have a problem with is taxpayer money going to religious institutions for secular education as this would be a tacit governmental endorsement of that religion.
B-Man Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) JUSTICE BREYER stresses the importance of “government neutrality” when it comes to religious matters... but there is nothing neutral about Maine’s program. The State pays tuition for certain students at private schools— so long as the schools are not religious. That is discrimination against religion. A State’s antiestablishment interest does not justify enactments that exclude some members of the community from an otherwise generally available pub-lic benefit because of their religious exercise. CORRECTED: 13 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: This ruling means that Catholics Americans may have to pay money to Muslim American schools or Jews Americans have to pay money to Hindu Americans. And they would have no say in the matter. Leftists dividing Americans as usual. Edited June 21, 2022 by B-Man
LeviF Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 Public dollars going to religious institutions as the result of private choice is not unconstitutional. This has been litigated in various forms time and again with the same results, as noted by C.J. Roberts in this very case. Not only that, but it's noted that as long as a private school identified itself to the state as "non-sectarian," there was little scrutiny applied to that label. Which means that the entire argument for excluding sectarian schools from the choices available to parents for their tuition assistance payments is arbitrary and capricious.
ChiGoose Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 Just now, B-Man said: JUSTICE BREYER stresses the importance of “government neutrality” when it comes to religious matters... but there is nothing neutral about Maine’s program. The State pays tuition for certain students at private schools— so long as the schools are not religious. That is discrimination against religion. A State’s antiestablishment interest does not justify enactments that exclude some members of the community from an otherwise generally available pub-lic benefit because of their religious exercise. CORRECTED: Leftists dividing Americans as usual. So you would be fine with your taxpayer dollars going to educate kids to join Islam? Or Judaism? Or Catholicism? Or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? If the Church of Satan established a school in Maine, do you think it would be a good idea for Maine taxpayers to subsidize it? I don’t. I do not believe the government should have a hand in religious education. I also believe that the constitutional requirement of prohibiting the government from passing laws respecting the establishment of religion is incongruous with funneling taxpayer dollars into religious education.
B-Man Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 27 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: So you would be fine with your taxpayer dollars going to educate kids to join Islam? Or Judaism? Or Catholicism? Or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? If the Church of Satan established a school in Maine, do you think it would be a good idea for Maine taxpayers to subsidize it? I don’t. I do not believe the government should have a hand in religious education. I also believe that the constitutional requirement of prohibiting the government from passing laws respecting the establishment of religion is incongruous with funneling taxpayer dollars into religious education. Hysteria. We'll make it simple what the ruling means. Education funding belongs to students, not schools. SCOTUS ruled earlier today that religious schools in Maine cannot be excluded from tuition assistance simply because they are religious. And of course, since this was a ruling for the good guys, the bad guys are all sorts of discombobulated and ticked off screeching about MUH SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE and making stupid jokes about the Church of Satan. Case in point. Nice try with that whole Church of Satan thing but NOPE. We get it, he’s trying to prove there is some Christian slant here on the ruling because he doesn’t want religious schools to benefit from any sort of funding BUT if the Church of Satan had a private school and parents wanted to send their kids there? Yes, they could. This Townsend person explained it far better than we can: Pretty straightforward. Unless you are concerned about giving responsibility back to the parents ? If it was accredited by the state, and the parents wished to send their child to the school, then that child's share of education money would go to the school. Pretty simple and not some grand Christian conspiracy to indoctrinate kids. https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/06/21/wajahat-ali-thinks-hes-owning-scotus-with-lame-tweet-asking-if-maine-taxpayers-would-have-to-fund-a-church-of-satan-school-hes-wrong-so-wrong/ .
LeviF Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 What about mooslims and jew skoolz?!? Somehow I feel that the Supreme Court managed to think that through as well. https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/20/20-1088/171699/20210311154242895_20-1088 Amici Brief.pdf 1
The Frankish Reich Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 3 hours ago, LeviF said: Public dollars going to religious institutions as the result of private choice is not unconstitutional. This has been litigated in various forms time and again with the same results, as noted by C.J. Roberts in this very case. Not only that, but it's noted that as long as a private school identified itself to the state as "non-sectarian," there was little scrutiny applied to that label. Which means that the entire argument for excluding sectarian schools from the choices available to parents for their tuition assistance payments is arbitrary and capricious. I hope you’re sitting down because … I agree. We got a bit carried away with the whole “entanglement” thing in the religion cases. I see no constitutional bar to funding (through its students) a school operated by a religious organization. Even one with a religious orientation. One caveat: a hard-and-fast no funding to religious schools rule is easy to administer. It’s religious? It doesn’t get state funding. Not even by subsidizing the tuition it’s students pay. The Maine rule announced today? That brings us more litigation. It requires state oversight over curricula and minimum standards. Does a strict orthodox school that teaches only scripture and interpretations of scripture (but no math, science, world/US history, etc) qualify? I say no. Same with a strict Koranic school - the type the Taliban believes is the only true education. We are subsidizing students (and, in turn, their schools) to ensure access to the basic educational requirements we think every school should have. 30 hours of reading, writing, arithmetic per week with 3 hours of religion (of your choice)? Fine. The reverse? Not so fine. 1
Andy1 Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 Interesting ruling. I wonder how long it will be before people freak out that their tax dollars are funding Muslim schools somewhere. I could see the same people celebrating this ruling screaming in the future about their tax dollars funding the teaching of Sharia law in Muslim schools. I’m not sure how I feel about this ruling but I generally prefer that church and state stay separate. It’s best for both institutions.
Precision Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 I don't see the big deal here, it's more like a family argument. I mean this is Maine we're talking about, everyone there is related! 😀
B-Man Posted June 21, 2022 Posted June 21, 2022 23 minutes ago, Andy1 said: Interesting ruling. I wonder how long it will be before people freak out that their tax dollars are funding Muslim schools somewhere. I could see the same people celebrating this ruling screaming in the future about their tax dollars funding the teaching of Sharia law in Muslim schools. I’m not sure how I feel about this ruling but I generally prefer that church and state stay separate. It’s best for both institutions. That is NOT how it works, as pointed out in earlier posts.
JaCrispy Posted June 27, 2022 Author Posted June 27, 2022 On 6/21/2022 at 1:32 PM, B-Man said: Hysteria. We'll make it simple what the ruling means. Education funding belongs to students, not schools. SCOTUS ruled earlier today that religious schools in Maine cannot be excluded from tuition assistance simply because they are religious. And of course, since this was a ruling for the good guys, the bad guys are all sorts of discombobulated and ticked off screeching about MUH SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE and making stupid jokes about the Church of Satan. Case in point. Nice try with that whole Church of Satan thing but NOPE. We get it, he’s trying to prove there is some Christian slant here on the ruling because he doesn’t want religious schools to benefit from any sort of funding BUT if the Church of Satan had a private school and parents wanted to send their kids there? Yes, they could. This Townsend person explained it far better than we can: Pretty straightforward. Unless you are concerned about giving responsibility back to the parents ? If it was accredited by the state, and the parents wished to send their child to the school, then that child's share of education money would go to the school. Pretty simple and not some grand Christian conspiracy to indoctrinate kids. https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/06/21/wajahat-ali-thinks-hes-owning-scotus-with-lame-tweet-asking-if-maine-taxpayers-would-have-to-fund-a-church-of-satan-school-hes-wrong-so-wrong/ . Little do they know, that the public schools are ‘The Church of Satan’ 🤣🤣🤣😉 1
B-Man Posted August 1, 2022 Posted August 1, 2022 FIGHT THE POWER: Federal judge agrees to expedite religious freedom lawsuit against Biden admin. Freedom OF religion..............................Not FROM https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=18216
ChiGoose Posted August 1, 2022 Posted August 1, 2022 15 minutes ago, B-Man said: FIGHT THE POWER: Federal judge agrees to expedite religious freedom lawsuit against Biden admin. Freedom OF religion..............................Not FROM https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=18216 The traditional reading of the First Amendment on religion is that it is both freedom OF and freedom FROM religion. We have both the Establishment Clause, and the Free Exercise Clause for this. Essentially, you are free to practice the religion of your choice and that government can not establish a national religion, enact laws to preference one religion over another, or preference religion over non-religion or vice versa. Of course, it has been a recent trend in SCOTUS to weaken or even do away with the Establishment Clause, so I think we can expect more cases and rulings allowing for government endorsement or religion despite the text and original meaning of the Constitution.
JaCrispy Posted December 6, 2022 Author Posted December 6, 2022 33 minutes ago, B-Man said: They keep trying. Should be an easy ruling… 1 1
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