Tight End stat sheet as of Dec. 1

[TroutDog]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

 

Not disagreeing with you but I do not think the Bills can afford to be patient with Knox heading into year three if he doesn't pick it up in a hurry.

 

The Bills are competing for a SB title in the next few seasons. Getting that position settled with a legitimate player is needed, not something they should hope for.

 

Look for an attempt to upgrade this position big-time this off-season.

I agree. I would do that while holding on to him and seeing how he evolves. I’d be extraordinarily angry if we cut bait and the light clicks for him with another team. 

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

I REALLY want to believe that something is going to click with this kid.  But man .... I'm losing hope every week.  There isn't one thing he does well on a consistent basis and he has shown literally zero improvement since he joined the league - which is my biggest concern.  No growth or progress.

 

 

I totally get it. He did make a really marvelous TD catch this week but his blocking is atrocious. He really needs to work on that. 
 

With any luck he’ll spend the offseason with Kelse again and take a step forward a’la Josh. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

I am with you. I think Beane goes and tries to find another TE looking for a “prove it” deal to pair with Knox and Sweeney. It could even be Kroft. Smith is gone after this season. Knox has been a disappointment this year for sure. We were all hoping another year in the system would help him work out the focus issues for catching. So far that hasn’t been the case. Covid and injuries haven’t helped Knox, maybe he can turn it on for the end of the regular season and playoffs. 

 

Knox is the incumbent starter for next year but I'd bring in competition.  Who knows if sweeney ever plays again, and kroft/smith are UFAs.  

 

I'm not spending a ton, or using any of the first 3 picks.  

3 hours ago, Commish said:

So I wasn't expecting much, and I was right: Buffalo's tight ends ranked 43, 47, and 99th in reception stats. Blocking is not scored, but I'm not sure we'd be a powerhouse in that ranking either. Hunter Henry, who popped for me last Sunday, is ranked 5th. Herbert is good, no doubt, but he's got a ton of weapon.

 

https://fantasyfootballers.org/te-tight-end-nfl-stats/

 

I don't care too much about their stats - knox's drops are the concerning bit to me.  He also seems to make mental errors frequently when blocking.  

[Rc2catch]

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

I guess that depends.  Are we not getting much production from our TE corps because we have poor TEs or do we have poor TEs because we aren’t putting a lot of resources into a position we wouldn’t use much anyway?  Daboll comes from NE where Belichick has always stressed the TE position.  But Allen is a different kind of QB.  I really don’t know the answer, but I have to think that one quality in line TE that could be effective both blocking and receiving would help this offense.  But whether that’s in the cards from a resource allocation standpoint is another question.  The Browns snagged Harrison Bryant in the fourth round last draft. I’d love for the Bills to find that quality of TE in that part of the draft next time around.

When targeted Kroft has produced. We have obviously seen flashes from Knox when targeted mostly last season as he was one of the 3 main weapons used. Allen just doesn’t look that way often this year. I think it’s just where he’s at in his development. He didn’t check down to running backs last year and he’s using them more this year. 
According to that chart your best tight ends are seeing 5+ targets a game. 
Knox is at 2.4 and Kroft at 1.78. 
Cant make much noise with those attempts. 
Given just Diggs and Beasley out there any tight end running a route should be open. There is no way our guys are that bad they can only win a couple routes a game. Rather it’s Daboll not having them run routes and mostly stay back to block (I don’t know those numbers) or just this stage of Allen’s development where he’s enjoying his new weapons (Diggs and Davis). I’m a firm believer that you could throw a Waller or Henry on this team right now and they still may not be used unless it’s emphasized by coaches. 
 

[ghostwriter]

3 hours ago, TroutDog said:

I suspect Knox will be in the pattern of most pass catchers of the past thirty years: it will be a process to see his true professional self. I know it’s maddening, but I think patience needs to be the word with him. Just my opinion. 

Especially with his contract being so cheap.. Very similar situation as Ford.. Underperforming but talented, lots of potential but haven’t come close to living up to it.. Probably making less than $1M/yr... might as well hang on to him and add more talent there.. Worth a roster spot but yes very underwhelming..

[SCBills]

For the love of all that is good in this world, just make sure we have speed options on the outside for Allen.  

 

John Brown being walking wounded this year is the biggest reason for any struggles the offense has had.  Not Knox, not the Running Game.... It's having a speed WR opposite Diggs who is always hurt.  

 

Fix.  That.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

12 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Especially with his contract being so cheap.. Very similar situation as Ford.. Underperforming but talented, lots of potential but haven’t come close to living up to it.. Probably making less than $1M/yr... might as well hang on to him and add more talent there.. Worth a roster spot but yes very underwhelming..

 

I feel like this is one of those positions where it can take a minute for them to show something.  He's made some flash plays, just needs to be much more consistent - especially in blocking.  He'll figure out how to find those zone soft spots in the middle of the field, and he's a load to tackle.  I mean, he still has drops, but this season he has so few targets its hard to even like evaluate.

[maryland-bills-fan]

Speed wide receivers who play like Bob Hayes can be taken in the later rounds.

[CuseBill]

Speaking of Tight Ends, did anyone notice the quiet contribution Lee Smith made to the running game on Sunday?  Dude looked like he has put some weight on and he was certainly throwing it around the few times I noticed him.  While he did not get called for any penalties, unfortunately he has a tendency to stay scrappy after the whistle blows with a lot of unnecessary pushing and shoving.  While I didn't do any kind of analysis showing a correlation between him being on the field and positive rushing yards, I did notice him on several pays blocking effectively.

[BarleyNY]

40 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

When targeted Kroft has produced. We have obviously seen flashes from Knox when targeted mostly last season as he was one of the 3 main weapons used. Allen just doesn’t look that way often this year. I think it’s just where he’s at in his development. He didn’t check down to running backs last year and he’s using them more this year. 
According to that chart your best tight ends are seeing 5+ targets a game. 
Knox is at 2.4 and Kroft at 1.78. 
Cant make much noise with those attempts. 
Given just Diggs and Beasley out there any tight end running a route should be open. There is no way our guys are that bad they can only win a couple routes a game. Rather it’s Daboll not having them run routes and mostly stay back to block (I don’t know those numbers) or just this stage of Allen’s development where he’s enjoying his new weapons (Diggs and Davis). I’m a firm believer that you could throw a Waller or Henry on this team right now and they still may not be used unless it’s emphasized by coaches. 
 

So if we had a tight end that was a legitimate receiving threat we still wouldn’t bother getting them involved?  I honestly do not buy that.  This TE position lacks a quality receiving talent.  Maybe the plan was to prioritize other positions.  If so, then that’s fine.  But the fact is that the talent just isn’t there for whatever reason.  If it were and we still weren’t using them effectively then that would be on Daboll and Allen.  But it’s not.

 

I think we can all easily see what a TE who could threaten the middle of the field could do for this offense.  Add back in a deep threat like Brown and defenses would be incredibly stressed in coverage.  Right now the only offense like that is KC.

 

Looking a little closer at what we have, here are the TE stats:

Kroft 12 catches on 16 targets for 119 yards, 3 TDs, 0 Fumbles

Knox 9-17-111-1-0

Gilliam 2-2-16-1-1

Smith 2-2-4-1-0

Total that’s 25 catches for 250 yards through 11 games, which isn’t much.  But they also have 6 of our 24 total receiving TDs.  WRs have 15, RBs have 2 and Allen has 1.  So to me it looks like our TEs have a role and it’s to be big targets in the red zone.  They are suited to that.  I haven’t looked more closely but I’d bet they’re getting targets on short yardage plays too.

 

This team needs a deep threat WR for sure, but I’d love to see the offense with a real receiving threat at TE too. 

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, streetkings01 said:

The way this offense is designed the tight end position is ranked low on the food chart. It’s the reason why I don’t understand why so many are clamoring for a stud TE, we already have Diggs, Brown, Beasley and Davis.....not enough balls to go around to feed everyone. Stud TEs are usually the #1 or #2 option on their team.....not the 4th or 5th option. 
 

What this offense needs is a stud RB, that’s what would turn this offense into a Chiefs type offense.

 

I agree with this.  But, as an ambitious Bills fan who want the offense, defense, and special teams to be dominant, I'd love to see a capable TE on the roster. 

 

I mean, if you're going to carry four tight ends on the roster, is it too much to ask that one of them is good?  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, The BLUES Brothers said:

Interesting ranking - Thanks for sharing.

 

Logan Thomas was someone I thought would get more opportunities here, but Bill-eiving that Knox will soon be back to the Angry Run caliber TE we were looking forward to this season yet.

 

Do you think between he and Kroft we have a pass catching/blocking TE or are you ready to move on?

 

Oh, boy.  Someone - cover1 I think - said he thought  Knox blocked well in this game.  He says so, but to me, all too often Knox just looks "lost in space" to me.  He can block OK - one on one, against an average to below average player.  But put him in a situation that requires quick reactions or against a top player and you get the Judon strip sack or that nasty sack vs. AZ. 

 

Or this - the stuffed Moss run prior to the INT in the Chargers game.  Knox winds up trying to block Bosa.  Oh, boy, Plan where you lose your Hat.

Now I'm not sure if he was supposed to be Dawkins guy from the start, but anyway, Knox engages and slows him down and here comes Dawkins:

Just as Bosa shoves Knox aside like an inconvenient lane divider, Dawkins gives Bosa a healthy pop and shoves him over to where Knox could reengage.  I don't think that's Dawkins job; I think he's supposed to help Knox, then take on the LB #56.  I also think Beasley was supposed to take on the CB, #25 but he might have had a role as an outlet receiver and needed to keep himself clean.  If he's supposed to block, that appears to be a Very Bad Angle and he's beaten before he starts.  (Keep in mind as I type this that my assessment of run blocking should be taken with a healthy salt shaker). 

The shove by Dawkins seems intended to allow Knox to recover, reset, and re-engage. 

Instead, Knox is unable to get Bosa's arm off his back, Bosa maintains leverage, and when Dawkins turns to take on the DB, Bosa easily shoots into the backfield and blows up Moss for a loss.  Contributing to the problem is Beasley standing kind of cluelessly right where Moss needs to go, watching Dion block what I think shoulda been his guy.

 

Now I can't tell you how that was supposed to work.  Was Dion supposed to stay on Bosa?  Was Bosa his guy in the first place?  Who was supposed to block the DB?  What was Beasley's assignment?  You need someone with a higher level of X's and O's run block scheme competence for that.

 

Seems to me if Moss got to the hole faster, it might have still been there.  But there's also a big 'ol steaming pile o' bad blocking keeping the hole from being there at the point where Moss arrives.  And clearly, if Knox coulda laid a bit better block on Bosa or if he could have gotten off and reset and stayed on it instead of being shed quickly like a particularly ugly Christmas sweater, play mighta gone somewhere.

 

4 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

I guess that depends.  Are we not getting much production from our TE corps because we have poor TEs or do we have poor TEs because we aren’t putting a lot of resources into a position we wouldn’t use much anyway?  Daboll comes from NE where Belichick has always stressed the TE position.  But Allen is a different kind of QB.  I really don’t know the answer, but I have to think that one quality in line TE that could be effective both blocking and receiving would help this offense.  But whether that’s in the cards from a resource allocation standpoint is another question.  The Browns snagged Harrison Bryant in the fourth round last draft. I’d love for the Bills to find that quality of TE in that part of the draft next time around.

 

I'm far from an expert at decoding run blocking as some here can attest from how often I sent up the "SOS!  WTF was that?" in 2018, and from the above.  But Daboll's run plays appear to me to frequently depend upon good TE blocking.  He's also been using a TE as a halfback surrogate at times this year.  I think a good blocking and pass-catching TE is a highly desired piece to Daboll.

 

Then there's the value a TE has as an outlet receiver.  KC's offense works as it does because defenses always have to devote resources to covering Kelce.

 

It seems to me that we put a fair amount of resources into the TE position.  The contract Kroft signed before 2019 is still top-15 both overall and in annual value. A 3rd round pick for Dawson Knox isn't "chopped liver".    Both are guys who have under-performed the Bills investment, and I don't think it's because we don't want to use TE.

 

I agree with you completely that even one quality TE effective in both blocking and pass catching would help.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

So if we had a tight end that was a legitimate receiving threat we still wouldn’t bother getting them involved?  I honestly do not buy that.

 

I agree with you.

 

17 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 This TE position lacks a quality receiving talent.  Maybe the plan was to prioritize other positions.  If so, then that’s fine.  But the fact is that the talent just isn’t there for whatever reason.  If it were and we still weren’t using them effectively then that would be on Daboll and Allen.  But it’s not.

 

(....)

 

This team needs a deep threat WR for sure, but I’d love to see the offense with a real receiving threat at TE too. 

 

One of my near-term wants is to do a deep dive on what our TE are doing on every play. 

 

I was hoping to sell one of our journalists on doing this, but doesn't look like it's gonna happen.

 

Don't know when I'll dig up the time though.

[Don Otreply]

5 hours ago, Commish said:

 

I was super excited about Knox coming into the season - the best I can say now  is that I'm enormously underwhelmed.

As was said by McDermott at the combine, the #1 thing every pass catcher needs to be able to do really well is NOT his forty time, but is in fact “catching”  the damn ball, and hold onto it. Knox has not shown to have conquered that requirement as of yet, sure hope that changes. Dawson has one or two more seasons to get things right, or he will be starting to tread on thin ice, as the saying goes. Again I sure hope he gets his issues fixed. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Mat68]

They need to scheme the cut back lane with teams over committing on the outside.  

[QLBillsFan]

5 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Beasley and Brown are both 30+ and 2021 will be the last years of the John Brown deal. 
 

As much as I like Brown, he’s been broken down much of this season, and that’s left the door open for him to be replaced with a better player this offseason. 

 

When I look at the Bills, we are trying to beat the Chiefs, everyone is. Our shot is to score, the Raiders blueprint.

 

And Tight End is the one position right now the Bills get 0 out of most weeks. It’s just a hole in the roster that would help Allen. And if that weapon grows into a better option than Brown or Beasley, that’s only good. Same as if there is a can’t miss WR in the 1st Round, take them. 
 

Allen is not Mahomes, he is going to need all the help he can get to win a chip, but we have the QB that can load up and throw 35 times a game. I’d keep piling on young weapons.
 

 

So the answer to out TE problem is to release our deep threat. This team is better when Brown is on the field. Certainly drafting a speedy rep can support but not time to move on from Brown. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by QLBillsFan

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, Commish said:

 

I was super excited about Knox coming into the season - the best I can say now  is that I'm enormously underwhelmed.

Knox just can't block at all. Even if his pass catching ability somehow improves, I can't see his blocking to get there. I would love Pitts on this team but it would require a big trade up in the 1st.  Kroft can be serviceable but it's time for this organization to identify the value of a good TE group. We must upgrade.

[Rc2catch]

56 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

So if we had a tight end that was a legitimate receiving threat we still wouldn’t bother getting them involved?  I honestly do not buy that.  This TE position lacks a quality receiving talent.  Maybe the plan was to prioritize other positions.  If so, then that’s fine.  But the fact is that the talent just isn’t there for whatever reason.  If it were and we still weren’t using them effectively then that would be on Daboll and Allen.  But it’s not.

 

I didn’t say we wouldn’t bother getting them involved. I said the way we are schemed right now they wouldn’t be involved. The targets simply aren’t there to produce. They would have to change things up a bit to involve a tight end heavy in the pass game. 
I think right now, Kroft and Knox if we targeted them 5-7 times a game their production numbers would be up there. Not Kelce or Waller numbers but they could hang in the Henry and Hockenson area stat wise. Matter of fact given Smokes injury I’m shocked they didn’t game plan to throw more to tight ends against L.A. I don’t think Kroft or Knox are less talented than a LOT of the tight ends on the top 25 of that list. You have to be given opportunities to produce and it can be argued Knox kinda lost trust in the pass game but I would think Kroft has earned more looks

[BigBuff423]

The best TEs over the last 20 years, except for one Tony Gonzalez, have been drafted in the mid-rounds (2-4) and have taken 2-3 years to show their potential. This COVID year has been a challenge along with the normal developmental curve for that position. I would not be surprised to see Knox come on in the final quarter of the season and then have a very good to total break-out year next year. Keep in mind he was a raw potential type of player when he came to Buffalo so the peeling away of the layers makes sense before we see what he can produce consistently over time. I don't know that he'll ever be a Kecle / Ertz  type of TE, but I do think he has real potential to be on the fringe of a good to great TE through the years. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by BigBuff423

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

8 hours ago, Commish said:

So I wasn't expecting much, and I was right: Buffalo's tight ends ranked 43, 47, and 99th in reception stats. Blocking is not scored, but I'm not sure we'd be a powerhouse in that ranking either. Hunter Henry, who popped for me last Sunday, is ranked 5th. Herbert is good, no doubt, but he's got a ton of weapon.

 

https://fantasyfootballers.org/te-tight-end-nfl-stats/

 

Ton of weapons??

 

Diggs, Beasley, Brown, Davis, McKenzie, Knox/Kroft, Singletary

 

Vs

 

Allan, Williams, Guyton, Reed, Johnson, Henry, Ekeler

 

Really, yes LA is better at TE and good at WR, but think I'd take the Bills overall WR group and would have a hard time believing Chargers have more overall weapons.

[4_kidd_4]

Lee Smith early and Lee Smith often.

 

Git er done Daboll.