What happened to the deep ball?

[colin]

the pass rush destroying our line likely made for fewer deep routes being called.  also, lee smith being in there some meant less personnel matchups favoring spreading out the D.

 

the biggest thing i took away watching this game is how different the O for the bolts and bills are.  we spread out, slow to develop plays, screens are in a muddle (intentionally sure), they have these goofy bunch formations, move guys all over but generally close to the line, and the plays hit really quickly.  ball is out in under 2 seconds at times, and they screen on a pre snap read to the rb out wide most of the time.

 

the only thing i want to see us add is a couple of quick hitters, not the whole bolts package.  i think having a TE worth a shoot makes a lot of that possible tho. 

[SCBills]

44 minutes ago, colin said:

the pass rush destroying our line likely made for fewer deep routes being called.  also, lee smith being in there some meant less personnel matchups favoring spreading out the D.

 

the biggest thing i took away watching this game is how different the O for the bolts and bills are.  we spread out, slow to develop plays, screens are in a muddle (intentionally sure), they have these goofy bunch formations, move guys all over but generally close to the line, and the plays hit really quickly.  ball is out in under 2 seconds at times, and they screen on a pre snap read to the rb out wide most of the time.

 

the only thing i want to see us add is a couple of quick hitters, not the whole bolts package.  i think having a TE worth a shoot makes a lot of that possible tho. 

Good observation.  To put into context, I was taken back by the quick slant Allen hit to Beasley.. It’s a simple play that most NFL teams run multiple times per game, but we rarely throw those.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

The 'deep ball' disappeared when Robert Foster went away...😢😩

*
😁🙄

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

12 hours ago, Penfield45 said:

Feels like since weeks 1-4 we stopped attempting deep balls. I know John Brown hasn't been healthy but we have a fully capable WR in Diggs who is arguably the best route runner in the NFL. Most of his TD's came from deep balls in Minnesota. 

 

We aren't even attempting any recently. is this by design? We do decent with moving the ball downfield but that big play ability is non-existent on our offense. It can't be opposing defenses because I watch KC beat 2 deep safety's every week with deep balls. 

I distinctly remember Cousins hitting a wide-open Diggs on deep play-action passes with regularity. Why am I not surprised that we can't do that? For some reason, the Bills rarely have wide-open receivers deep.

[Jauronimo]

13 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I thought he was absolutely right on Diggs, but he just didn’t turn around. To be fair, the Bills may have suspected that’d be the outcome. I don’t think it was a bad throw.

He was right on him, actually tackling Diggs when the ball arrived.  He was burnt and playing make up.  Allen underthrew Diggs but the Db who was toasted on the play didn't have a chance to make a play on the ball, didn't allow Diggs to make a play for the ball, and as result it was first and goal on 5.  

[WideNine]

The Bolts were getting to Allen with 4 rushers.

 

They played off Davis and Allen may want to look his way as his first read more often for quick come-back routes.

 

Played mostly 2-deep zone with a mix of man, double, and sometimes 3 dbs around Diggs. Even on the short dumps to Diggs there would be a gang of Bolts on him immediately.

 

One time I saw Allen talk to Winters after they broke the huddle. I can only speculate that he was telling him he needed to hold his block a bit longer for that play, but Winters was solo against Bosa on that play and Allen was holding it looking for the deep crosser. Bosa beat Winters and he sacked Allen from behind.

 

This is why the deep stuff is not there especially against teams with solid fronts that can have more coverage options deep.

 

[freddyjj]

39 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I distinctly remember Cousins hitting a wide-open Diggs on deep play-action passes with regularity. Why am I not surprised that we can't do that? For some reason, the Bills rarely have wide-open receivers deep.

because teams had 7-8 in the box vs Minny to stop Dalvin Cook.  And Thielen took single Safety attention away.

[JerseyBills]

13 hours ago, thronethinker said:

Did you forget the bomb to Diggs today that led to first and goal? Sure it was PI, but still produced. 

And the bomb to Gabe Davis, perfect throw n catch. 

[ogham26]

i agree i think it would benefit us to throw deep more often.  diggs will draw a pass interference on a lot of them or make a play over a defender.  i think we will see the deep ball multiple times in the playoffs if we can get john brown back and healthy

[T master]

Yah but JB is a huge part of the offense when e's out there there is another detention of speed the opponent has to game plan for because he can take the top off the D on any play i don't know if Davis is as fast as JB .

 

I just know when he is healthy and on the field it seems as though the offense is much better and if Knox gets his stuff together then get Allen more comfortable with Kroft this Bills offense could be elite .

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 11/30/2020 at 6:17 AM, ganesh said:

I think McKenzie can run if they really want him to be that downfield threat.  But I think it is more than just having a speedy WR

 

A lot of it is chemistry and ball tracking.  

21 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

And the bomb to Gabe Davis, perfect throw n catch. 

Free play 1x1.  Thats smart. 

 

The PI worked out, but he threw it up into double coverage.  I don't know that that is a smart strategy. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 11/29/2020 at 9:21 PM, Penfield45 said:

Feels like since weeks 1-4 we stopped attempting deep balls. I know John Brown hasn't been healthy but we have a fully capable WR in Diggs who is arguably the best route runner in the NFL. Most of his TD's came from deep balls in Minnesota. 

 

We aren't even attempting any recently. is this by design? We do decent with moving the ball downfield but that big play ability is non-existent on our offense. It can't be opposing defenses because I watch KC beat 2 deep safety's every week with deep balls. 

 

I realize this is asking a lot, but do you think you could like, actually go to Next Gen Stats and look at our charting or such before posting about how we aren't even attempting any recently?  If you did, you would see that in the last 3 weeks, we have attempted and completed (or drew DPI on) a handful of deep balls. 

 

There was a stretch of about 4 weeks where Josh's throwing motion was hindered by the L shoulder injury/linebacker brace.  I think he's still working back to his correct motion from that injury.  Also, while Diggs is fast and can run those deep routes, it makes a difference whether we have 3 excellent WR or only 2 on the field.  3 are much harder to cover than 2.

 

Lastly, KC succeeds with deep balls because they have a great run game and because Mahomes has great patience with the underneath game.  It's not just the 2 deep safeties, it's the rest of the coverage.  Take away KC's deep balls and Mahomes will throw intermediate routes to Kelce and KC will run down your throat all day.  That's the offense we want to have, but we aren't there yet.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/season/josh-allen/ALL529264/2020/12/pass

In addition to this, there's a 47 yd shot to Diggs that drew DPI

[SCBills]

I think we need to see more of Gabriel Davis as a deep threat.  What he did this past week on the jump ball is what he did his entire career at UCF.   If i'm Josh, and I see single coverage on him, i'm taking several shots per game... just throw it up to him and have him go get it. 

[Royale with Cheese]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:21 PM, Penfield45 said:

Feels like since weeks 1-4 we stopped attempting deep balls. I know John Brown hasn't been healthy but we have a fully capable WR in Diggs who is arguably the best route runner in the NFL. Most of his TD's came from deep balls in Minnesota. 

 

We aren't even attempting any recently. is this by design? We do decent with moving the ball downfield but that big play ability is non-existent on our offense. It can't be opposing defenses because I watch KC beat 2 deep safety's every week with deep balls. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I distinctly remember Cousins hitting a wide-open Diggs on deep play-action passes with regularity. Why am I not surprised that we can't do that? For some reason, the Bills rarely have wide-open receivers deep.

 

When you saw Cousins hitting a wide-open Diggs on deep play action passes, what year was that, who was the OC and how was Minny's run game?

Imma guess it was 2019, Stephanski was the OC, and Minnesota was #4 in the league for rush attempts, #6 for rush yards.  They had a very strong run-centric offense and opponents focus on limiting it opened the deep shots.

 

It seems odd that persons such as yourself are so knowledgeable and astute as to perceive that McDermott is not and can never be a championship coach, but appear unable to decipher the answers to relatively straightforward football questions like "why did that work in Minn last year but not for us this year?"

 

 

On 11/30/2020 at 5:17 AM, ganesh said:

I think McKenzie can run if they really want him to be that downfield threat.  But I think it is more than just having a speedy WR

 

McKenzie can run, but can he track the deep ball and make adjustments? 

 

And can he release against bigger, more physical CBs?  (John Brown struggles with this sometimes.)

 

There has to be a reason why they don't plug him in for Brown so much.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:29 PM, dave mcbride said:

He was covered and if the DB had turned around it may well have been a pick. It wasn’t a terrible throw, but a better db can make that a pick. 

I would suggest going back and taking a look at that play again if you turn around you slow down and digs had him beat the only thing that he could do was to watch for diggs to make a play on the ball and get his hands up the pass was practically perfectI

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

When you saw Cousins hitting a wide-open Diggs on deep play action passes, what year was that, who was the OC and how was Minny's run game?

Imma guess it was 2019, Stephanski was the OC, and Minnesota was #4 in the league for rush attempts, #6 for rush yards.  They had a very strong run-centric offense and opponents focus on limiting it opened the deep shots.

 

It seems odd that persons such as yourself are so knowledgeable and astute as to perceive that McDermott is not and can never be a championship coach, but appear unable to decipher the answers to relatively straightforward football questions like "why did that work in Minn last year but not for us this year?"

Appreciate the sarcastic dig there.

 

It's just years of frustration of not hitting passes that I see other teams around the league make. Obviously there is a football explanation...there is always a way to explain away lack of production and big plays.

 

It seems like everything is usually hard work for the Bills. We're not getting quick-strike TDs on offense, and we're weirdly lacking in defensive TDs. This is a years-long issue, so yes, you might be able to find football reasons for it, but there could be other factors in play as well.

[maryland-bills-fan]

Well...... "the footbone is connected to the shin bone,,, the shin bone is connected to the leg bone,,,, the leg bone is connected to the hip bone"...." ..................... The 6 yard rush is connected to the 10 yard crossing pattern,,,, the 10 yard passing pattern is connected to the 20 yard square out,,,,,,  the 20 yard square out is connected to the 35 yard post ,,,,,,, the 35 yard post is connected to the 50 yard hitch and go ".... ....  A lot starts with the running game keeping the linebackers and safeties with their weight and eyes leaning to the running back.  Everything else in the projection gets you an extra yard for the deeper patterns and creates holes to make medium to deep patterns work real well. ... ... I like some old time gospel songs. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Appreciate the sarcastic dig there.

 

Was that sarcasm?  I thought it was puzzlement at the seeming paradox.  OK, sarcasm, as you wish....

 

You said "I distinctly remember Cousins hitting a wide-open Diggs on deep play-action passes with regularity. Why am I not surprised that we can't do that? For some reason, the Bills rarely have wide-open receivers deep. "

 

Quote

It's just years of frustration of not hitting passes that I see other teams around the league make.

 

What bearing do your "years of frustration" have on this?  Different teams, different coaches, different players.  Let's stay with the current cast.

 

It's not some mysterious "excuse making" as your phrase "always a way to explain away lack of production and big plays" appears to imply.  There's always an explanation for lack of production in one area, though.

 

In the chess match of football, if you've got a gap to your game other teams will invariably exploit that observation to clamp down elsewhere.   It isn't excuses, it is what it is.  Would you dispute the observation that the Bills have lacked a significant run game this season?   We don't, so teams aren't worried about it, so they put their defensive hosspower elsewhere.  Last year, the gap in our game was the deep ball so you could see WR racing down the sidelines so poorly chaparoned I'm surprised there weren't unplanned pregnancies.

 

The reason the Bills struggle where other teams succeed is that we haven't managed to put together a complete offense.  I thought we'd be closer this year, but we're not.

[CincyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

 

 

That was real close to being a TD.  The DB lunges and barely takes out Gabes legs.