Impact of Bad Coaching on Good Talent

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Bferra13 said:

How many excuses does Matt Stafford get? Is he really that great? He's failed under multiple coaching staffs. Gimme a break with this guy. He's okay, but not some kind of misplaced Hof'er.

 

1 hour ago, Beast said:

Matt Patricia shouldn’t be blamed. The Ford family has had that franchise screwed up for over half a century. 

Lions have stunk for 2 generations.  Stafford has cycled through 3 coaches.  He’s a dud.

 

13 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

First year he had to deal with the move to LA.  Then they were playing in a soccer stadium with more opponents fans than their own.  Rivers was a train wreck last year.  I'm not trying to say Lynn is even a good coach but he has had some obstacles to deal with. Gase has been terrible everywhere he has gone and he had some weapons to work with in NY last year.  

Stadium issues have nothing to do with Lynn being a bad HC.  He’s got a lot more to work with than Gase had last year.  He’s got to go

[Big Turk]

18 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

First year he had to deal with the move to LA.  Then they were playing in a soccer stadium with more opponents fans than their own.  Rivers was a train wreck last year.  I'm not trying to say Lynn is even a good coach but he has had some obstacles to deal with. Gase has been terrible everywhere he has gone and he had some weapons to work with in NY last year.  

 

Rivers is looking pretty decent this year again...so who was at fault?  

 

Good teams use things going against them to galvanize them in an "us against the world" mentality. Bad teams fold. 

 

Lynn has had far more talent than Gase but only 1 more win to show for it. That is really terrible coaching. And after today's clock management fiasco I see why they are always losing close games.

Edited November 30, 2020 by matter2003

[Utah John]

1 hour ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said:

What I don't get is coaches who make mind-numbingly stupid decisions like how the Chargers ran it on the 2 yard line with 20 seconds left and no timeouts needing two scores.  Like, 1,000 out of 1,000 casual fans knew that was wrong.  How does it happen?

I'm sure Lynn would say the Chargers were trying to surprise the Bills, doing something they'd never expect. 

 

And the Bills probably were surprised, but they still made the tackle.

[BuffaloBillies]

Lynn's mask was crooked all day and his nose kept popping out above the seam. I knew then we would win. 

[Michael1962]

1 hour ago, cDAVIS said:

The NFL will always be all coaching. Everyone is a world class athlete. That's why belicheat wins no matter who he has

(He can take his'n and beat your'n, and then he can turn around and take your'n and beat his'n.    ~ t

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Captain Caveman said:

I've always felt that coaches largely get too much blame for things not working out in any given season (although there are lots of coaches who I'm sure deserve it.)

 

Watching Matt Patricia pretty much run out Matt Stafford's good remaining years, along with the Falcons, Jets, Chargers and Cowboys to some extent all pretty much failing miserably with lots of talent (and especially talent at the QB position) really highlights how much value good coaches (and good coaching staffs) can have.

Yes and no... I think a new coach/leadership can often times make a tremendous difference.  The biggest example of that is the job Brian Flores is doing since taking over for Adam Gase.

 

Then again, I feel sometimes coaching is often a scapegoat and a “quick fix” for other issues.  It’s easier to call for a coach or coordinator to get fired than it is to hold the star player accountable.  You saw this a lot last January when a portion of fans wanted to blame the loss to Houston entirely on Brian Daboll and not Josh Allen - who I believe was ultimately more responsible.

 

Dallas was another great example.  There was a ton of talent on the roster and you’d assume it was Jason Garrett’s fault.  But when you replace him with Mike McCarthy and a new staff, the results for a similar roster over the first weeks of the season were very similar.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said:

What I don't get is coaches who make mind-numbingly stupid decisions like how the Chargers ran it on the 2 yard line with 20 seconds left and no timeouts needing two scores.  Like, 1,000 out of 1,000 casual fans knew that was wrong.  How does it happen?

The run was pretty stupid, but I read that the QB sneak was Herbert’s call.  He ran the sneak without changing the protection. So his line was pass blocking while he ran right into the penetrating defense.  
 

Lynn got a lot of crap over that call but it seems like it was a rookie QB making a rookie mistake 

[Captain Hindsight]

42 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

First year he had to deal with the move to LA.  Then they were playing in a soccer stadium with more opponents fans than their own.  Rivers was a train wreck last year.  I'm not trying to say Lynn is even a good coach but he has had some obstacles to deal with. Gase has been terrible everywhere he has gone and he had some weapons to work with in NY last year.  

Chargers are awful record wise in close games. That is coaching and game management. He had two inexplicably time outs today and the running play call with 20 seconds left down 10 with no timeouts? I wouldnt have let him on the plane 

 

They didnt have much of chance before that play, but that all but sealed their fate 

[Livinginthepast]

11 minutes ago, BuffaloBillies said:

Lynn's mask was crooked all day and his nose kept popping out above the seam. I knew then we would win. 

Lynn had a serious case of the stink eyes most of the game. He was getting more and more irate, yet he was the cause of his own misfortune!

[Orlando Buffalo]

1 hour ago, CodeMonkey said:

We were commenting during the 2nd half what time in the next 24 hours Lynn gets fired.

I bet that Lynn gets the rest of season and if Chargers win 3 of last 5 he stays one more year mainly due to the fact he has Herbert looking good.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

First year he had to deal with the move to LA.  Then they were playing in a soccer stadium with more opponents fans than their own.  Rivers was a train wreck last year.  I'm not trying to say Lynn is even a good coach but he has had some obstacles to deal with. Gase has been terrible everywhere he has gone and he had some weapons to work with in NY last year.  

As bad as having Tyrod as your starting QB. McDermott took the Bills to a playoff with Tyrod as his QB

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Lions have stunk for 2 generations.  Stafford has cycled through 3 coaches.  He’s a dud.

 

Stadium issues have nothing to do with Lynn being a bad HC.  He’s got a lot more to work with than Gase had last year.  He’s got to go

There is another thread on here stating how important the home field advantage is.  Look I'm not disagreeing with you.  Lynn seems terrible.  The Chargers were my darkhorse team to make a WC run.  They have crapped the bed.  Lynn will go.  They appear to have at least a very good rookie QB, they play in LA, and they have talent on the team.  They should be the #1 landing spot for a HC job.  

My hunch and way too soon to make a guess - is it will be Jim Harbaugh.  

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

There is another thread on here stating how important the home field advantage is.  Look I'm not disagreeing with you.  Lynn seems terrible.  The Chargers were my darkhorse team to make a WC run.  They have crapped the bed.  Lynn will go.  They appear to have at least a very good rookie QB, they play in LA, and they have talent on the team.  They should be the #1 landing spot for a HC job.  

My hunch and way too soon to make a guess - is it will be Jim Harbaugh.  

 

 

Home field?  The stadiums are empty or nearly so.  

 

Lynn is done--long overdue.  I don't see an attractive NFL HC spot being filled with Harbaugh.  Bienemy more likely.  

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

 

 

 

 

The run was pretty stupid, but I read that the QB sneak was Herbert’s call.  He ran the sneak without changing the protection. So his line was pass blocking while he ran right into the penetrating defense.  
 

Lynn got a lot of crap over that call but it seems like it was a rookie QB making a rookie mistake 

 

 

Was the run play with no timeouts 1st and goal from the 2 with 24 seconds (which wasted 16 of those seconds) the rookie's call too?  

 

 

 

 

[folz]

4 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

How many excuses does Matt Stafford get? Is he really that great? He's failed under multiple coaching staffs. Gimme a break with this guy. He's okay, but not some kind of misplaced Hof'er.

 

Stafford is an interesting question. Is he a product of a bad organization and coaching staffs (and would have flourished more---as far as wins/playoffs---somewhere else), or is Stafford the kind of guy that puts up a lot of numbers, but just doesn't have that killer instinct/put the team on his back leadership/mentality/drive? I'm not sure...most likely, a little bit of both. But, Stafford has put up some nice numbers over the years:

 

He's 17th on the NFL's All-time passing yards list and if he plays two more seasons, he'll probably crack the top ten on that list. Yes, like all QBs of today, he benefits from the pass happy game of today...but when all is said and done, he will probably be top ten/eleven all-time in passing yards, completions, and passing TDs. His average career year is 4,521 passing yards, 30 TDs, 14 INTs. 

 

It's hard to win/succeed in poorly-run organizations. How many QBs have flourished with the Jets, or the Bengals, or the Browns, or Detroit? Or the Bills, post-Polian/Butler and pre-McDermott/Beane. How often is it that the kid is just not good enough and how often is it an organization ruining the potential of the player (by not giving him a decent O-line, or weapons, or a complimentary defense, or not coaching/developing him well)? Look at a Sam Darnold or an Andrew Luck. Luck had some good years, but probably could have played another 10-15 years if he wasn't so beat up because the Colts never put a decent line in front of him.

 

I definitely think Stafford would have some playoff wins under his belt if he had been drafted by one of the better organizations in the league. I mean, the guy has been consistently putting up solid/big numbers on a horrible team for years. He's only made the playoffs 3 times. Is that due to him or the team built around him? If he had been making the playoffs more often and had a couple of wins, would people look at him differently? And might that not have happened if he was drafted by an organization like the Steelers, or Seattle, or KC, or New England, etc.?

 

It's hard to say definitively one way or the other, because it is what it is, but I would have been thrilled for him to have been the Bills QB during the drought. That much I know.

 

[jlgarsh]

5 hours ago, Beast said:

Matt Patricia shouldn’t be blamed. The Ford family has had that franchise screwed up for over half a century. 

Caldwell had them going in the right direction at 36-28 in 4 years. Patricia was like 13-29 or thereabouts. The mistake was getting rid of a solid coach for a joke.

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Lions have stunk for 2 generations.  Stafford has cycled through 3 coaches.  He’s a dud.

 

Stadium issues have nothing to do with Lynn being a bad HC.  He’s got a lot more to work with than Gase had last year.  He’s got to go

Lynn had multiple opportunities to kick a FG and get within 7, and went for it instead. That’s a fail of coaching 101

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, Captain Caveman said:

I've always felt that coaches largely get too much blame for things not working out in any given season (although there are lots of coaches who I'm sure deserve it.)

 

Watching Matt Patricia pretty much run out Matt Stafford's good remaining years, along with the Falcons, Jets, Chargers and Cowboys to some extent all pretty much failing miserably with lots of talent (and especially talent at the QB position) really highlights how much value good coaches (and good coaching staffs) can have.

 

 

Yeah, I agree.

 

A lot of the impact that good coaches have is that they aren't bad coaches. Bad ones can really kill a team. Good ones let the roster play up to it's potential though they also do a bit more.

 

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Stafford has cycled through 3 coaches.  He’s a dud.

 

 

 

You watch, the Lions are going to jettison Stafford one of those years. And if he then find a good situation, expect sudden surprise "improvement" from Stafford.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, cDAVIS said:

The NFL will always be all coaching. Everyone is a world class athlete. That's why belicheat wins no matter who he has

 

 

Referring to what you say about Belichick there, the 1991 - 1995 Cleveland Browns (whose cumulative record was 36-44) would beg to differ.

 

And the Patriots are 4-6 this year. Yeah, he's still done a good job coaching this year, but no, not everyone is a world-class athlete and some rosters are much much better than others.

 

Also, Belichick isn't really a good example, because he isn't just a coach, he's a GM as well. And through most of his term in N.E. he's actually been a very good GM, though the roster this year is certainly unexceptional.

[TBBills]

Charger have always been like this.... I think it's a team curse. Previous coaching had the same problem even with Philip Rivers. 

I remember when the chargers had #1 offense, #2 defense, and last in ST's. They were losing in brilliant fashion.

That was with different HC and a younger Philip Rivers.

[Mr. WEO]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I agree.

 

A lot of the impact that good coaches have is that they aren't bad coaches. Bad ones can really kill a team. Good ones let the roster play up to it's potential though they also do a bit more.

 

 

 

You watch, the Lions are going to jettison Stafford one of those years. And if he then find a good situation, expect sudden surprise "improvement" from Stafford.

 

 

I won't.  He's the common denominator.

7 hours ago, jlgarsh said:

Caldwell had them going in the right direction at 36-28 in 4 years. Patricia was like 13-29 or thereabouts. The mistake was getting rid of a solid coach for a joke.

Lynn had multiple opportunities to kick a FG and get within 7, and went for it instead. That’s a fail of coaching 101

 

Caldwell had one double digit season then they went 25-23 and got blown out in a WC game.  He was done as a HC, just like Schwartz before his and Patricia after him.  All bad.

[Beast]

13 hours ago, cDAVIS said:

The NFL will always be all coaching. Everyone is a world class athlete. That's why belicheat wins no matter who he has

 

But he has a losing record now and did in Cleveland.

 

Try again.

 

Players and coaching both matter.

 

Obviously.