The Mystery of the Disappearing Run Game

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, spartacus said:

It's been proven you don't need to actually run teh ball at all, to be effective in play action

The LB and DB still watchc the play and re-act to eh motion they are seeing

 

I'll rephrase in regards to the effectiveness of our PA.. Sure, LB's and DB's may react, but with no running  game, they still have Safeties over the top that we have to account for.    

[hondo in seattle]

I once read something from a former NE coach - I wish I could remember exactly who.  In any case, he said that Daboll would make an excellent OC even though he was much smarter with passing game concepts than run game concepts.  

 

All NFL OCs use the same running plays.  But there are little nuances in play design and play calling that make a difference.  Greg Roman knows how to produce rushing yardage.  Gailey did a nice job in 2012 - with CJ and a little bit of Freddy - despite not having the best OL.  Daboll, it seems, still has a lot to learn.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, fergie's ire said:

The run game seems to work best running to the left and when Mongo and Dawkins are on that side together.

 

How can you possibly determine that, since they played on the L together for literally a total of 10 snaps?  Of which 3 were runs to the L, 2 to the L, and 2 up the middle.

 

IIRC, Morse was injured on the 3rd snap of the Bills first drive against NE and Mongo slid over to center on the following drive.

 

3 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Having our 5 best OL healthy and on the field would help.  Not sure if Feliciano's pec is up to the task of playing a full game at guard but ideally we'd have Dawkins - Mongo - Morse - ugh - Williams and all run plays would go left.

 

Would Ford at LG be "ugh"?

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

The pass game wasn't up to where we wanted it to be coming into the season. It required commitment, attention and

improvement- now it is excellent. I think a healthy line, with the 5 best guys out there, will improve enough to be a compliment and help the passing game. I do NOT want them to focus on it so much to the detriment of what we have passing the ball.

[Solomon Grundy]

4 hours ago, H2o said:

You know who's missing? The FB GOAT.

PLEASE!!!

4 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Having our 5 best OL healthy and on the field would help.  Not sure if Feliciano's pec is up to the task of playing a full game at guard but ideally we'd have Dawkins - Mongo - Morse - ugh - Williams and all run plays would go left.

I want to see Dawkins-Bates-Mongo-Ike-Williams 

[Solomon Grundy]

Time for the Bills to hire these guys

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Another viewpoint on the Bills Run Game from cover1

 

https://www.cover1.net/bills-run-game/

 

-Last year, most of the Bills runs, and best of the Bills runs were outside the tackles

-2019 24 outside runs of 10+ yards

-2020 6 outside runs of 10+ yards (excluding QB scrambles).  [I suspect it would be even less if designed QB runs were excluded]

-This year we're playing a lot more spread offense

-Like most spread offenses, Bills are running between the tackles more  (which we weren't very good at last year)

-88 of Bills 196 rush attempts have come against 6 man boxes but we're 20th in YPA in that situation!!!!

 

Turner points out, though, that stats don't tell the whole story.  The Bills are blitzed the 2nd most in the league.  Bills see a lot of 6 man boxes pre-snap with a 7th (or 7th and 8th) defender being inserted after the snap to confuse pass blocking - but it also blows up the run game.

 

Good article with examples of what he sees happening.  He makes a case that in some instances it's neither the line nor the backs, but the WR failing to react to and pick up a blitz that blows up the run play.

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Patrick Dimarco is a great blocker and to be honest all around player. His inline blocking was very good and he would just truck LB’s, CB’s and safety’s. He always seemed to be blocking or engaged with a player. 
 

I can’t remember the exact formation that we used in the 90’s but it was a shotgun formation with 3 WR’s a FB and RB in line behind the QB. I loved the versatility of that formation because when we caught a team in the wrong personnel on defense we would go K Gun and totally mess them up. 
 

Our WR core can be spoken in the same sentence with our 90’s WR’s but we have nobody on this team even close to Thurmanator 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Call_Of_Ktulu

[HOUSE]

Shock the World.....Try running to the right.

[hondo in seattle]

I always thought if I was an offensive coordinator, I'd make the OL a priority.  I'd want two Pro Bowl quality linemen and three solid other starters.  QBs throw better and last longer behind a good offensive line.  And RBs produce more.

 

In 1971, I watched Willie Ellison run 26 times for 247 yards through the biggest holes ever seen.  Willie broke Jim Brown's NFL record and Cookie Gilchrist's pro football record that memorable day.  Even good backs struggle with bad offensive lines.  An average back like Willie runs like OJ when the holes are big enough.  

 

Beane has improved the OL with a bunch of journeyman but there are no real dominant stars on this line.   

 

It's a curious thing.  Bean spent a lot of draft capital on a QB and a lot of money on WRs.  But he hasn't invested much - money or draft capital - in his RBs or offensive line.  

 

[YattaOkasan]

@Hapless Bills Fan thanks for posting the cover 1 stuff cause thats where I went for this stuff.  Some other notes,

 

defenses are inserting a defender post snap so while we are getting a lot of 6 man boxes, they bring an edge defender from outside the box (slot cb blitz).  Solution here would be to use RPO (heard we have run them less this year) and hit a bubble screen or a WR in the curl/hook zone.  

 

We are tipping our hand with jet motion as we run the ball like 70% when we use it.  Hoping this is a "scout thyself" moment that we have been good at, and we can hit a couple big pass plays off this to loosen that up again.

 

We are running better to the left than the right.  Not sure what that is exactly other than Williams is much better at pass pro and winters has been getting beat a lot.

 

Kroft has continued to be a great blocker (underappreciated for this last year) and Knox is inconsistent in being able to identify the force player on the edge.

 

Lastly I think they could (and likely are saving for playoffs again) have Allen run more.  Try accounting for him during a run play with 10 personnel and only 6 in the box.  

 

Those are my general thoughts.  Mostly learned over at @Cover 1 (seriously who does live play breakdowns from the broadcast view).

5 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Beane has improved the OL with a bunch of journeyman but there are no real dominant stars on this line.   

 

It's a curious thing.  Bean spent a lot of draft capital on a QB and a lot of money on WRs.  But he hasn't invested much - money or draft capital - in his RBs or offensive line.  

 

2 2nd round picks (I guess 1 was McDermott) and Morse was made highest paid center.  I don't think hes neglected it (I know this is not exactly what you said), and moreover I think hes done a superb job at getting depth through FA.  If I was gonna nitpick (probably earlier in the season and less so now) it would be at DL where we are spending more than anyone else in the league. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by YattaOkasan

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Who cares about the running game. It’s not who they are now.  Bills have an elite QB and the best WR group in the NFL.  That was not the case a few years ago. Weather will not stop KC and Pittsburgh from throwing the ball. Commit to the best 5 linemen. Daboll is doing fine and getting guys open all over the field. My only criticism is they should call 2-4 more screens a game.

I care about the running game
 As the season goes on the teams get tougher defending . So much tape by end of season into playoffs.
Teams will coach us out of passing. A Playoff team has to be able to turn on the run game when needed. my opinion.
So we better start practicing it  lol
and then defining and refining it. O line needs to tighten up the formations and bring their will in the run game.

Screens and honest  check downs  to those H backs Ethan. might open the D up.

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

PLEASE!!!

I want to see Dawkins-Bates-Mongo-Ike-Williams 

Okay. But only for one series.

46 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Shock the World.....Try running to the right.

Behind Mr Winters perhaps

[hondo in seattle]

3 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

@Hapless Bills Fan thanks for posting the cover 1 stuff cause thats where I went for this stuff.  Some other notes,

 

defenses are inserting a defender post snap so while we are getting a lot of 6 man boxes, they bring an edge defender from outside the box (slot cb blitz).  Solution here would be to use RPO (heard we have run them less this year) and hit a bubble screen or a WR in the curl/hook zone.  

 

We are tipping our hand with jet motion as we run the ball like 70% when we use it.  Hoping this is a "scout thyself" moment that we have been good at, and we can hit a couple big pass plays off this to loosen that up again.

 

We are running better to the left than the right.  Not sure what that is exactly other than Williams is much better at pass pro and winters has been getting beat a lot.

 

Kroft has continued to be a great blocker (underappreciated for this last year) and Knox is inconsistent in being able to identify the force player on the edge.

 

Lastly I think they could (and likely are saving for playoffs again) have Allen run more.  Try accounting for him during a run play with 10 personnel and only 6 in the box.  

 

Those are my general thoughts.  Mostly learned over at @Cover 1 (seriously who does live play breakdowns from the broadcast view).

2 2nd round picks (I guess 1 was McDermott) and Morse was made highest paid center.  I don't think hes neglected it (I know this is exactly what you said), and moreover I think hes done a superb job at getting depth through FA.  If I was gonna nitpick (probably earlier in the season and less so now) it would be at DL where we are spending more than anyone else in the league. 

 

Good points.  Maybe I overstated my position but...  Morse was signed to an inflated contract because - if I recall correctly - we didn't have a valid option for the center position at the time.  Again, if I recall correctly, PFF had Morse graded as something like the 14th best center in the NFL prior to us signing him.   So while we ended up with the highest paid center in the league, we certainly didn't end up with the best.     

 

I truly appreciate that Beane has built a better/deeper line than Whaley.  I guess I should have said that Beane's given us some solid starters and strong depth but failed to create an elite line.  

 

The OL is better at pass pro than run blocking and I guess that makes sense.  Still, I'd like to see more holes for backs to run through and more push on 3rd or 4th and short.   At 4.0, the Bills rank in the bottom ten in ypc.  

 

Even in pass pro, the Bills have given up 20 sacks - roughly the NFL average despite having an elusive QB who's not easily sacked.  Pass pro could be better too. 

 

We have outstanding wideouts and - let's celebrate - an outstanding QB.  But our backs and OL are lagging behind.  And seeing this, I'm guessing Beane prioritized passing game skill positions.    

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Good points.  Maybe I overstated my position but...  Morse was signed to an inflated contract because - if I recall correctly - we didn't have a valid option for the center position at the time.  Again, if I recall correctly, PFF had Morse graded as something like the 14th best center in the NFL prior to us signing him.   So while we ended up with the highest paid center in the league, we certainly didn't end up with the best.     

 

I truly appreciate that Beane has built a better/deeper line than Whaley.  I guess I should have said that Beane's given us some solid starters and strong depth but failed to create an elite line.  

 

The OL is better at pass pro than run blocking and I guess that makes sense.  Still, I'd like to see more holes for backs to run through and more push on 3rd or 4th and short.   At 4.0, the Bills rank in the bottom ten in ypc.  

 

Even in pass pro, the Bills have given up 20 sacks - roughly the NFL average despite having an elusive QB who's not easily sacked.  Pass pro could be better too. 

 

We have outstanding wideouts and - let's celebrate - an outstanding QB.  But our backs and OL are lagging behind.  And seeing this, I'm guessing Beane prioritized passing game skill positions.    

Morse. I believe he was expected to be a decent prize for whomever garnered him. The ONLY downside was the concussion issues. and here we are again.

 But Morse was very good grab by Beane and i think the move was grade decently or better>and> it was a real need for Buffalo Bills to look after Josh Allen.

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Another viewpoint on the Bills Run Game from cover1

 

https://www.cover1.net/bills-run-game/

 

-Last year, most of the Bills runs, and best of the Bills runs were outside the tackles

-2019 24 outside runs of 10+ yards

-2020 6 outside runs of 10+ yards (excluding QB scrambles).  [I suspect it would be even less if designed QB runs were excluded]

-This year we're playing a lot more spread offense

-Like most spread offenses, Bills are running between the tackles more  (which we weren't very good at last year)

-88 of Bills 196 rush attempts have come against 6 man boxes but we're 20th in YPA in that situation!!!!

 

Turner points out, though, that stats don't tell the whole story.  The Bills are blitzed the 2nd most in the league.  Bills see a lot of 6 man boxes pre-snap with a 7th (or 7th and 8th) defender being inserted after the snap to confuse pass blocking - but it also blows up the run game.

 

Good article with examples of what he sees happening.  He makes a case that in some instances it's neither the line nor the backs, but the WR failing to react to and pick up a blitz that blows up the run play.

 

 

But I am sure other teams deal with the same issues and still are running the ball better than we are...how are they doing it?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

But I am sure other teams deal with the same issues and still are running the ball better than we are...how are they doing it?

 

Did you look at the article?  While he doesn't provide a prescription, some of the examples and discussion imply one

It's a missed assignment in many cases - whoever's assignment it is (WR, TE, OLman) fail to read the defender and block.

In other cases, the OL isn't working together to hand off the blocks properly

 

In other cases, it may simply be a bad play call for what the defense has dialed up - we don't have a "hat on a hat"

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

3 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Morse. I believe he was expected to be a decent prize for whomever garnered him. The ONLY downside was the concussion issues. and here we are again.

 But Morse was very good grab by Beane and i think the move was grade decently or better>and> it was a real need for Buffalo Bills to look after Josh Allen.

 

I agree, Morse was a good - if pricey - signing at the time given our needs. 

 

But he's not an elite center.  In fact, after being a healthy scratch last week and McB's vague comments about him recently ("He's in the mix"), it's uncertain if he's even a starter any more.  

 

20 Buffalo Bills thoughts before final 6 games: Unpacking Mitch Morse situation - newyorkupstate.com

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Good points.  Maybe I overstated my position but...  Morse was signed to an inflated contract because - if I recall correctly - we didn't have a valid option for the center position at the time.  Again, if I recall correctly, PFF had Morse graded as something like the 14th best center in the NFL prior to us signing him.   So while we ended up with the highest paid center in the league, we certainly didn't end up with the best.     

 

I truly appreciate that Beane has built a better/deeper line than Whaley.  I guess I should have said that Beane's given us some solid starters and strong depth but failed to create an elite line.  

 

The OL is better at pass pro than run blocking and I guess that makes sense.  Still, I'd like to see more holes for backs to run through and more push on 3rd or 4th and short.   At 4.0, the Bills rank in the bottom ten in ypc.  

 

Even in pass pro, the Bills have given up 20 sacks - roughly the NFL average despite having an elusive QB who's not easily sacked.  Pass pro could be better too. 

 

We have outstanding wideouts and - let's celebrate - an outstanding QB.  But our backs and OL are lagging behind.  And seeing this, I'm guessing Beane prioritized passing game skill positions.    

 

I would be happy with simply a stalemate for the OLine on run plays. Instead 2 or 3 defenders seemingly are waiting in the backfield once the RB gets the ball on a lot of plays and it makes it very hard to gain yardage or even get back to the LOS. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Good points.  Maybe I overstated my position but...  Morse was signed to an inflated contract because - if I recall correctly - we didn't have a valid option for the center position at the time.  Again, if I recall correctly, PFF had Morse graded as something like the 14th best center in the NFL prior to us signing him.   So while we ended up with the highest paid center in the league, we certainly didn't end up with the best.     

 

Just a note here that I wouldn't bet the rent money on a PFF OL grading.

 

I'm not arguing that Morse is the best center or was at the time we signed him.  Just that I wouldn't take "14th best" at face value.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

I would be happy with simply a stalemate for the OLine on run plays. Instead 2 or 3 defenders seemingly are waiting in the backfield once the RB gets the ball on a lot of plays and it makes it very hard to gain yardage or even get back to the LOS. 

 

Again  - did you actually read that cover1 article?