The Bills and Patrick Mahomes

[BADOLBILZ]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think objectively on the face of bulk offensive statistics added to specifics of play calls, one can make a good case.  

 

 

The point being made in my post was that when evaluating what type of HC/OC situation Mahomes was drafted into, it is more relevant to look at the years immediately preceding his first starting season, rather than go back to Philly. 

Is that a point you really want to argue?  If considering what kind of employee you would make, we shouldn't look at, say, your most recent 2-3 years, we should go back 6-10?  Would anyone reasonable want to argue that?

 

 

 

The more commonly held belief is that having been Brett Favre's QB coach 20 years prior gave Reid a blueprint on how to best handle Mahomes.    Favre was the comp.    

 

I definitely reject the idea that Reid had finally evolved into an offensive mind.    That's not on point at all if that was the point you were trying to make.  

 

It doesn't sound to me like you were very aware of Reid's past or watched enough KC football in 2017 and 2018 to hear this stuff over and over and over...........you just box score scouted and saw that KC's offensive numbers were up for a couple seasons.    

 

 

 

 

[Zerovoltz]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) I don't think I'd characterize Reid as evolving as a HC thru 2017.

 

He was still enigmatic offensively...........he had years in Philly where he had no receivers but still made his QB's look good.........then he had years where his offenses inexplicably underachieved.    He was no "genius" he literally went a punchless 4-12 with effectively the same talent that Chip Kelly then went 10-6 with and lead the NFL in big plays with.   

 

He was consistent at 3 things.........fielding competitive teams one way or another.........then getting upset by lesser talented teams in the playoffs..........and of course his terrible clock management.

 

His evolution was getting a GOAT-like QB.  

 

2) As for that Bills defense.........they went into that Chiefs game coming off the worst 3 game defensive stretch in team history.    But all that Chiefs talent failed to take advantage of all the Cedric Thornton's and Phil Humber's and Eddie Yarborough's in that lineup.   It was a pretty shocking turn of events. 

 

3) I have no problem with people saying that Mahomes was put into a good situation..........but the point is SO overstated.   

 

Do you suppose in some other market there is a fan saying.........."well you know Allen had a great situation because Brian Daboll was a national championship winning OC who worked alongside Tom Brady for 8 years and then put together this great passing offense that allowed Josh Allen to lead the NFL in passing yardage thru 10 weeks in 2020!   Of course he's great......he had it made!"

 

If you ignore A LOT of the other facts about Daboll's history.......as many Bills apologists do with Reid......then what's wrong with THAT narrative?   

 

 

 

I have to laugh at this.....you should see the Denver Bronco fans saying this EXACTLY about Allen....and how Allen would have failed in Denver....etc etc.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The more commonly held belief is that having been Brett Favre's QB coach 20 years prior gave Reid a blueprint on how to best handle Mahomes.    Favre was the comp.    

 

I definitely reject the idea that Reid had finally evolved into an offensive mind.    That's not on point at all if that was the point you were trying to make.  

 

It doesn't sound to me like you were very aware of Reid's past or watched enough KC football in 2017 and 2018 to hear this stuff over and over and over...........you just box score scouted and saw that KC's offensive numbers were up for a couple seasons.   

 

You'd be mistaken

[Rochesterfan]

I just think all of this speculation is silly - fun, but silly - and no one should be hurt over it because that is all it is speculation.

 

1) No one knows what actually would have happened had Mahomes been drafted to that Bills team.  What we do know is instead of learning under Alex Smith (career year) and Andy Reid as OC with an offensive oriented team - he would have learned under Rick Dennison (OC) with Tyrod Taylor as his mentor on a Defensive oriented team.  I just do not see the growth potential there that he had in KC.

 

2) A few people in the organization know exactly what was going on, but even those of us on the outside recognized that Whaley was done after that terrible end of year press conference.  There was no way that McDermott was going to entrust the drafting at that point to Whaley and Monos (it was even noted that McDermott did not even trust the Bills draft board) and basically Whaley was just a glorified page to make calls and field calls for McDermott.  So whatever the article tries to say about what Whaley and Monos thought about Mahomes - it really matters very little - they were not really involved once McDermott took over - so everything they say is all coated with knowing the outcome because they were not making the choices and after the draft - they and the scouts were all let go and said they had little input into the entire draft.

 

3) Pegula may have been slamming his fist to draft Mahomes, but there is little proof of that.  Pegula hired McDermott with an obvious plan to go out and get him a GM that he was comfortable with.  I can’t imagine that Pegula at that point was watching film and able to identify talent that really based on pre draft assessment would have been over drafted by 10 spots.  I can believe that on their evaluation trips - he may have like Mahomes, but I really do not see pounding the table and saying Mahomes would have been a good fit in Buffalo.  They did say that exact thing when talking about Allen - not only was Allen a good player, but they believe he was a culture and community fit.

 

In the end - the article is whatever.  Ty Dunne was a decent writer at TBN, but I don’t believe he had the information or leeway to write something like this.  Now he can freelance and take what he has heard and mix-in what he thinks and create a totally speculative article without having to go through an editorial group and cross check references.

 

People can believe what they want - it is part of the problem with Internet media - whatever opinion you hold - no matter how obscure- you can find a article that fits it.

I look at it this way.  The Bills were in position to draft Mahomes (along with 10 other teams), but chose not to.  They took a package that made senses for the new leadership team.  That group then identified their franchise QB in the next draft and went and got him.  We can forever look at Mahomes and Allen, but trying to compare what would have happened is just too much for me unless someone has been to that alternate universe and can provide absolute feedback.  
 

What I know from listening to and talking with lots of former players - who drafts you and the team and style you go to matters.  Players put in a great situation excel and go on to have great careers and players drafted to bad teams at all positions can fail. We know Mahomes in KC was drafted into an ideal situation- we have no idea if Buffalo pulled that trigger how the different situation would have worked out, but there is very little to suggest the lack of WR talent would have allowed him the same type of growth.

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

Do you suppose in some other market there is a fan saying.........."well you know Allen had a great situation because Brian Daboll was a national championship winning OC who worked alongside Tom Brady for 8 years and then put together this great passing offense that allowed Josh Allen to lead the NFL in passing yardage thru 10 weeks in 2020!   Of course he's great......he had it made!"

 

If you ignore A LOT of the other facts about Daboll's history.......as many Bills apologists do with Reid......then what's wrong with THAT narrative?   

 

 

Actually in fact there are a lot of fan bases that think that exact thing about Allen.  The various Jets message boards have that debate all the time - what would have happened if they drafted Allen and we had Darnold.  The assumption is Darnold would have succeeded because of Daboll and stability and Allen would have struggled in that mess.

 

I have seen Browns boards wonder about Allen versus Mayfield and would they have been better off with Allen or if Allen is a product of Daboll’s system.

 

The Broncos are another message board that thinks and wonders if Elway missed on that call.

 

Most seem to agree that Allen (like Mahomes) is in a good situation now and that has allowed him to become the player he is.  No one knows what would of happened on any of these other teams.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Rochesterfan

[QLBillsFan]

Any argument that Reid wasn’t a good O coach is not wanting to see the facts. In Philly his O was explosive and made Westbrook a star. KC certainly was solid. He was a top 6-8 O for 8 or 10 years. And yes that helped Mahomes. 

[Putin]

Man I hope Allen WINS a SB real soon! So sick of  these Mahomes  threads that keep reappearing once a month ...

 

[Einstein's Dog]

My thoughts on the article:

1.  The title says "The Pressure is on Josh Allen".  The pressure is not on JA anymore.  JA's pressure this year was to improve and hopefully bring home a division title.  JA is well on the way to achieving those goals.

2.  The article seems to diss both J Allen and McDermott.  I don't agree.

3.  McDermott is dissed by being cast as the man that wouldn't allow the Pegula's wish for Mahomes.  The extension to McDermott suggests any bad blood is buried.  Year over year improvement can do that.

4.  The article is more sneaky about dissing J Allen.  Trolling J Allen gets clicks.  The article underscores J Allen's improvement and accomplishments.  One example is the description in the Rams game.  "A phantom pass interference penalty" .    That's a troll job.  That was a clear grab at the goal line.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You'd be mistaken

 

 

I don't know about that.........but apparently you'd be mistaken about the analogy I made.........it's a thing.

 

Every fan base that isn't winning SB's has these type of laments and in that case we tend to see the good fortune and functionality of other situations that we view from afar.

 

Andy Reid is an outstanding HC to Bills fans.......he got teams to the playoffs(sometimes at our expense).........but I know a lot of Eagles fans........and every one wanted him gone when he was fired..........and the frustration was mounting in KC.........Reid's job was probably saved by Brett Veach's obsession with Mahomes.........it wasn't destined for him to just keep one-and-done-ing in KC.   

 

And of course.......even when we are winning we tend to take what we have for granted........like it was the minimum owed us.

 

My uncle was a dentist in Topeka Kansas and during the Bills SB years.   I remember him telling me how embittered KC fans were about the 1983 draft where their rival Denver was able to trade up and get Elway(who tormented them for 2 decades) and then the indignity of the Chiefs passing on both Kelly and Marino for Todd Blackledge at #7 overall.    

 

Yet I've never once heard a Bills fan say "thank God the Chiefs took Blackledge".

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

43 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

 

4.  The article is more sneaky about dissing J Allen.  Trolling J Allen gets clicks.  The article underscores J Allen's improvement and accomplishments.  One example is the description in the Rams game.  "A phantom pass interference penalty" .    That's a troll job.  That was a clear grab at the goal line.

 

 

Allen is one of the most popular players in the league now.

 

This "the media is out to get Josh Allen" stuff is pretty comical.

 

I think you are confusing Josh Allen actually being a big factor in the landscape of the league with him being under attack.

 

[Einstein's Dog]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Allen is one of the most popular players in the league now.

 

This "the media is out to get Josh Allen" stuff is pretty comical.

 

I think you are confusing Josh Allen actually being a big factor in the landscape of the league with him being under attack.

 

My comment was not "the media is out to get Josh Allen".  It was this article was out to downplay JA's achievements and improvement.  I gave an example of how the slight by his referencing of the pass  interference call as "phantom".  It was a blatant pass interference in a game where an atrocious interception was called.

 

I think you are confusing how Josh Allen is being portrayed in the general media with the specific article being reviewed.

[ToGoGo]

You want to know how Patrick Mahomes would be in Buffalo if we drafted him?

 

He would be Jack Eichel. A superstar player stuck on a team he can't take over the hump. The national media and fans would be clamoring for him to leave Buffalo and go to a team he can win with.

 

Even now, nobody gives Josh Allen the credit he deserves. He proved himself in an impossible situation. To this day, Mahomes hasn't faced 10% the adversity that Allen faced in year one.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

21 hours ago, whorlnut said:

I’m tired of this talk. Mahomes would not have found the success here that he has found in KC. No way he would he have been good with the supporting cast and coaching that was here at the time. You don’t just take a guy that was put into a great situation and put him in a bad one and expect the same results.

I think this is a story we tell ourselves to make it feel better.

 

I think he would have been great anywhere, right away, sit or no sit. 
 

His vision is unrivaled. 

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Allen is one of the most popular players in the league now.

 

This "the media is out to get Josh Allen" stuff is pretty comical.

 

I think you are confusing Josh Allen actually being a big factor in the landscape of the league with him being under attack.

 

 

It really is. I swear we have people who seek negative comments about Allen and then obsess over them and tune out the positive. 

 

I have asked it before and it is not fair for me to definitively state it having never been there but I get the sense it might be a Buffalo thing? That maybe some Bills fans kinda prefer being cast as the overlooked underdog that is railing against the system and cling to that a bit? I might be totally off base but that is a bit how it feels.

12 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Actually in fact there are a lot of fan bases that think that exact thing about Allen.  The various Jets message boards have that debate all the time - what would have happened if they drafted Allen and we had Darnold.  The assumption is Darnold would have succeeded because of Daboll and stability and Allen would have struggled in that mess.

 

I have seen Browns boards wonder about Allen versus Mayfield and would they have been better off with Allen or if Allen is a product of Daboll’s system.

 

The Broncos are another message board that thinks and wonders if Elway missed on that call.

 

Most seem to agree that Allen (like Mahomes) is in a good situation now and that has allowed him to become the player he is.  No one knows what would of happened on any of these other teams.

 

There are people in NFL organisations who believe close to this. Not that Allen is a product of a system as such but he has benefitted greatly from a stable organisation with a buttoned up Head Coach, a GM who has put pieces around him and the same OC to develop him for 3 years. It is why Brian Daboll, whatever Bills fans do or don't like about him, is going to be on a lot of HC interview lists in 6 weeks time.

[Billzgobowlin]

Good article.  I doubt the Bills would have played out the same way in fact they probably would have ruined Mahomes.  Andy Reid was the right coach for him.  On the other hand Allen is a Buffalo QB.  I think it played out well.

[whorlnut]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think this is a story we tell ourselves to make it feel better.

 

I think he would have been great anywhere, right away, sit or no sit. 
 

His vision is unrivaled. 

Maybe so, but I truly believe it. Most players in any sport are products of their environments. I’m not saying he isn’t great, because that’s silly. I just think he was put in the perfect spot to realize his potential. 

[Mat68]

Idk about that.  Sounds to me two guys want back in the league.  Two guys, would really want a positive recommendation from their previous ownership.  I question alot of this.  Terry, a guy who doesnt really follow football, or until recently, watches Big12 football?  Watches Texas Tech?  Loves Mahomes...  I like the narrative that Mcdermott stopped everyone from taking Mahomes too.  Maybe he did.  If this is the case Mcdermott will be the most successful coach in Bills history.  The fortitude day one to go against your owner, trim the over priced talent and still make the playoffs is wild.  

[JoshAllenReceipts]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Allen is one of the most popular players in the league now.

 

This "the media is out to get Josh Allen" stuff is pretty comical.

 

I think you are confusing Josh Allen actually being a big factor in the landscape of the league with him being under attack.

 

 

Clearly, you are the one who is confused. Everything u just said is 100% incorrect.

[JoshAllenReceipts]

15 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Actually in fact there are a lot of fan bases that think that exact thing about Allen.  The various Jets message boards have that debate all the time - what would have happened if they drafted Allen and we had Darnold.  The assumption is Darnold would have succeeded because of Daboll and stability and Allen would have struggled in that mess.

 

I have seen Browns boards wonder about Allen versus Mayfield and would they have been better off with Allen or if Allen is a product of Daboll’s system.

 

The Broncos are another message board that thinks and wonders if Elway missed on that call.

 

Most seem to agree that Allen (like Mahomes) is in a good situation now and that has allowed him to become the player he is.  No one knows what would of happened on any of these other teams.

 

 

Brian Daboll absolutely sucks as a Coach...Brian Daboll is a product of Josh Allen. 

 

Allen is a significantly better QB than Darnold and Mayfield in ANY situation/team. There's no comparison at all. It's not even close.

[Mango]

I actually really liked the “one man optical illusion. He is whatever you choose to see” line. It’s probably the best description of the last 2 years of Allen’s career. I don’t think there is a ton of debate on how well he has performed when you look at the season as a whole. 
 

In regards to the Mahomes trade. I think this story uses some more aggressive language, but we’ve known for a while that Whaley and Co wanted either Mahomes or Watson. It’s been covered since  draft day.