A Gift To Putin On Way Out The Door

[Tiberius]

https://nypost.com/2020/11/24/trump-administration-to-reportedly-dispose-of-observation-planes/

 

The Trump administration is preparing to get rid of Air Force planes used for surveillance after exiting the Open Skies treaty with Russia, complicating President-elect Joe Biden’s options if he seeks to rejoin the accord, according to a report.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on Sunday announced the withdrawal from the decades-old treaty that allowed nations to conduct unarmed surveillance flights over each other’s territories.

Now the Trump administration is moving to jettison the specially equipped OC-135B planes used in the Open Skies flights, the Wall Street Journal reported.

The planes have been designated as “excess defense articles,” meaning they can be given or sold at steep discounts to allies, the report said, citing a senior US official.

“We’ve started liquidating the equipment,” the official said. “Other countries can come purchase or just take the airframes. They are really old and cost-prohibitive for us to maintain. We don’t have a use for them anymore.”

Older cameras used on the aircraft are expected to be given to allies, and new digital cameras the Pentagon planned to install on the planes will be sent to other Air Force units.

Then-Defense Secretary Mark Esper announced in July that a program to buy new planes to replace the OC-135Bs was canceled, so Biden won’t have the option of replacing the flights with modern planes.

[Metal Man]

Love or hate Trump the spin that him opting out of Open Skies was a bad thing is 100% BS. I work in defense and I promise you this was the best move for America.

 

The treaty was great in theory but in practice we showed them ours but they fought against us every step of the way to show us theirs so it really made no sense to continue along in a situation where we weren't getting an equal share in return.

 

Plus to be honest we don't really need the extra surveillance anyway.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Metal Man

[Tiberius]

59 minutes ago, Metal Man said:

Love or hate Trump the spin that him opting out of Open Skies was a bad thing is 100% BS. I work in defense and I promise you this was the best move for America.

 

The treaty was great in theory but in practice we showed them ours but they fought against us every step of the way to show us theirs so it really made no sense to continue along in a situation where we weren't getting an equal share in return.

 

Plus to be honest we don't really need the extra surveillance anyway.

Not buying this. Trump doesn't do anything for the right reason. If this wasn't woking Trump would care nothing about it. Just another example of cooperation with our democratic allies being shredded. Divide the democratic nations so the autocrats can have more room to operate. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Metal Man said:

Love or hate Trump the spin that him opting out of Open Skies was a bad thing is 100% BS. I work in defense and I promise you this was the best move for America.

 

The treaty was great in theory but in practice we showed them ours but they fought against us every step of the way to show us theirs so it really made no sense to continue along in a situation where we weren't getting an equal share in return.

 

Plus to be honest we don't really need the extra surveillance anyway.

 

I like that explanation, and thanks for the insider insight, but this reads to me as if we are no longer surveilling Russia, but they will continue to surveil us. No?

[Metal Man]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Not buying this. Trump doesn't do anything for the right reason. If this wasn't woking Trump would care nothing about it. Just another example of cooperation with our democratic allies being shredded. Divide the democratic nations so the autocrats can have more room to operate. 

Well political leaning is all about belief...

To me though the idea that every single thing Trump did was bad is as laughable as saying every single thing he did was good.

 

 

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I like that explanation, and thanks for the insider insight, but this reads to me as if we are no longer surveilling Russia, but they will continue to surveil us. No?

The Open Skies treaty was about allowing each other to surveil openly. In other words we would allow Russia to fly their spy planes over any place in our country they liked and in return they were supposed to allow us the same but in reality it wasn't evening out. Pulling out only means if they want to surveil us now they will have to do it covertly and/or by satellite and that would be the same for us.

 

As far as decommissioning the old cameras all that says to me is that if Biden decides to get back into the treaty then at least we will have better technology if Russia ever lets our planes get off the ground from their airfields, which like I said they rarely did.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, Metal Man said:

Well political leaning is all about belief...

To me though the idea that every single thing Trump did was bad is as laughable as saying every single thing he did was good.

 

 

The Open Skies treaty was about allowing each other to surveil openly. In other words we would allow Russia to fly their spy planes over any place in our country they liked and in return they were supposed to allow us the same but in reality it wasn't evening out. Pulling out only means if they want to surveil us now they will have to do it covertly and/or by satellite and that would be the same for us.

 

As far as decommissioning the old cameras all that says to me is that if Biden decides to get back into the treaty then at least we will have better technology if Russia ever lets our planes get off the ground from their airfields, which like I said they rarely did.

 

 

 

How was it not evening out? Were they going back on the treaty and not allowing us?

[SoTier]

How are spy planes -- which would be at high altitudes I presume -- superior to spy satellites with better cameras?   I can go to Google Maps, select satellite view, and zoom into my house and not only see the arbor at my back gate but also the part of my garden pond that's not obscured by the tree next to it.   Wouldn't spy satellites be even more technically advanced?

 

[Metal Man]

20 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

How was it not evening out? Were they going back on the treaty and not allowing us?

When it came time for them to "show us theirs" they used every delay tactic to ground our pilots and make it as difficult as possible for us to fly our missions as well as restricting where we were allowed to fly even though we let them fly over every single base in the US they chose as well as the capitol.

 

This resulted in them ultimately having much more imagery over us than we had over them.

 

6 minutes ago, SoTier said:

How are spy planes -- which would be at high altitudes I presume -- superior to spy satellites with better cameras?   I can go to Google Maps, select satellite view, and zoom into my house and not only see the arbor at my back gate but also the part of my garden pond that's not obscured by the tree next to it.   Wouldn't spy satellites be even more technically advanced?

 

That is a good question. Satellites have smaller windows for capturing images as they orbit through a position and I would assume are much more prone to cloud cover. The planes can fly defined patterns with cameras constantly firing off high resolution photos. I assume this would give them much more coverage than an orbiting camera but there could be other reasons.

 

This kind of speaks to my original point though. Why give them unfettered access to our country when we don't really need the same in return anyway?

Edited November 24, 2020 by Metal Man

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, Metal Man said:

Well political leaning is all about belief...

To me though the idea that every single thing Trump did was bad is as laughable as saying every single thing he did was good.

 

 

 

Everything he did was for and about him. I know he fooled a lot of people, but I thought most people realized how he worked by now. Some people are fooled all the time, I guess. 

[Doc]

4 hours ago, Metal Man said:

Well political leaning is all about belief...

To me though the idea that every single thing Trump did was bad is as laughable as saying every single thing he did was good.

 

 

The Open Skies treaty was about allowing each other to surveil openly. In other words we would allow Russia to fly their spy planes over any place in our country they liked and in return they were supposed to allow us the same but in reality it wasn't evening out. Pulling out only means if they want to surveil us now they will have to do it covertly and/or by satellite and that would be the same for us.

 

As far as decommissioning the old cameras all that says to me is that if Biden decides to get back into the treaty then at least we will have better technology if Russia ever lets our planes get off the ground from their airfields, which like I said they rarely did.

 

Thanks for the non-left-wing spin on this. 

[DrDawkinstein]

4 hours ago, Metal Man said:

When it came time for them to "show us theirs" they used every delay tactic to ground our pilots and make it as difficult as possible for us to fly our missions as well as restricting where we were allowed to fly even though we let them fly over every single base in the US they chose as well as the capitol.

 

This resulted in them ultimately having much more imagery over us than we had over them.

 

 

Ah, thanks. That makes sense.

 

My only issue is that now it's all secret and covert. Whereas previously, even if it was one-sided and Russia was doing all the surveilling, we at least knew what they were looking at and how often. Now it gives us far less insight into what Russia is looking at in the US.

 

I really dont see the benefit of pulling out of the treaty. Even with your valid reasons. Valid reasons don't necessarily produce benefits.

 

Any thoughts on that? How does pulling out of the treaty really benefit the US?

[BillStime]

On 11/24/2020 at 8:21 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

Any thoughts on that? How does pulling out of the treaty really benefit the US?

 

It doesn't... just another Trump gift to Putin.

 

[Albwan]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

 

It doesn't... just another Trump gift to Putin.

 

 

Here's your boy...

[BillStime]

Just now, Albwan said:

 

Here's your boy...

 

your pride and joy

 

[T master]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:16 PM, Tiberius said:

Everything he did was for and about him. I know he fooled a lot of people, but I thought most people realized how he worked by now. Some people are fooled all the time, I guess. 

 

Yah kind of just like those that voted for the dope in office now thinking that he truly had the peoples best interest in mind which he has shown that to not be his first thoughts .

 

As far as putting him in a bad place he used 50 some executive orders to undo all that was in place so he could just fall back on that but i'm thinking the prior wanted to get out of it because the treaty wasn't a good thing for our countries defense !

 

You add to it that we have satellites if Biden was bright enough to ask to use those he could see exactly what he needs to see with out complaining about not having the treaty both sides will look to see what the other is doing treaty or not .