Shaw66 Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said: I got into a debate last night with some friends via text message. After the GB game someone made a comment that the Packers are wasting Rodgers. I snapped back and said 7-3 is a real waste. They went into a long rant about how the Packers were 1 game away from the Super Bowl and did nothing to address their needs, they specifically singled out the decision to take Jordan Love in the 1st round. I want to get everyone’s thoughts? The Packers have a shot to be the #1 seed in the NFC this year. My stance is that your goal as a franchise is to win a Super Bowl, you have a better chance at winning a Super Bowl if you’re competitive every year because the playoffs are a crapshoot, in order to win you need an elite QB. The Packers have an elite QB now and felt Love had the potential to stretch their competitive window post Rodgers. The QB is all that matters IMO. Now if Love doesn’t pan out the point is moot, but if Rodgers fails to win a SB and eventually love takes over and becomes a top tier QB I think it’s undoubtedly worth it because it keeps the Packers competitive. The Chiefs were a competitive team with Alex Smith, but they decided to trade up for Mahomes AND sit him a season and it paid dividends. The Cardinals knew Rosen wasn’t the guy and made a move for Murray when they had the shot. The likelihood that Love becomes Mahomes is minuscule and Murray is a tough level to reach, but if you think you have a franchise QB you have to take them every time in my opinion. I think Miami needs to do it this year if they have a chance at Lawrence, Fields or Wilson. Thoughts? I agree with you, at least insofar as onfield talent is concerned. Rodgers pissed and moaned about the Pack not getting receivers this year, but Rodgers is NOT a head coach or a GM. Those guys are building a team, and they add talent as they think is best to build a team. If you have a QB, your team can be competitive in a lot of different ways. If you don't have a QB, you might stumble your way to the Super Bowl, but you aren't going to be in the mix year after year. Looking forward, I think KC, Houston and Buffalo have the guy they need. Everyone else is still looking. Arizona might have their guy, Chargers might have theirs.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 Just now, Simon said: Yeah, the multiple fumbles were huge. But giving up 34 points to a guy who can't throw the ball 25 yards, yet who managed to stay on the field for 35+ minutes and limited Roger's opportunities is huge too. It's a valid point that the GB defense left the Colts on the field. But just like with the Bills-Chiefs game, it's a valid counter-point that if the Packers offense could sustain one of their 2 drives in the 3rd and 1st drive in the 4th, they make their own opportunities and give their D a chance to regroup.
QLBillsFan Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: No issue with the Love pick. A QB is always worth it. AJ Dillon in the 2nd and the Cincinnati tight end in the 3rd..... they are the picks you should question. Spot on I really liked Dillon for Bills but Pack got him earlier that expected. He doesn’t seem to fit what they do. If not mistaken Claypool was on board? Even Gabe Davis in 3rd or 4th makes sense. QB Love has potential to be good. Saw him live beat Fresno State in late comeback last year.
Albany,n.y. Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 I remember years ago there was a faction that said never draft a QB in the 1st round & never draft a QB until you've built other parts of your team 1st. They would back up their ideas with stats showing only 50% of 1st round QBs failed and others were "ruined" by lack of weapons around the QB. I've always believed the QB is so important that if you scout a guy who you think is the answer you move heaven & earth to get the guy unless you have a QB in his prime. It's better to prepare to replace your franchise QB if he's on the wrong side of 35, although nowadays guys like Brady & Brees are playing long past the expiration date of a franchise QB. I firmly believe if you take the same team and it's a 12-4 team with a franchise QB, if that team has a below average QB they'd be 4-12. Just look at the 2010-2012 Colts. With Manning in 2010 they were 10-6, in 2011 with no answer at QB they were 2-14, in 2012 with rookie Andrew Luck they went 11-5. The QB may not be everything, but he's pretty much the only thing. As the old WGR parody song said "with no quarterbackin' get those bags a packin'"
QLBillsFan Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 We of all people know about QB. So I don’t fault going with Love. Time will tell on him. I can’t see Pack moving on from Rodgers next year. Adams they got from Fresno State in 2nd round. WR can be found in 2nd -3rd for sure. In a year with so much talent at WR shocking they didn’t find me. For some reason I don’t see Pack getting to SB this year. Saints to me are #1 in NFC and after that it’s big fall off. If Chiefs don’t get to SB whoever represents AFC will win.
Don Otreply Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Brennan Huff said: Green Bay 100% should have drafted a WR in the first round this year Absolutely! It was incredibly billsey not to,
Big Turk Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: It's a valid point that the GB defense left the Colts on the field. But just like with the Bills-Chiefs game, it's a valid counter-point that if the Packers offense could sustain one of their 2 drives in the 3rd and 1st drive in the 4th, they make their own opportunities and give their D a chance to regroup. I mean the Colts tried to give the game back to the Packers and finally they got enough penalties that they had to punt. What was it, something like 9 penalties on that last regulation drive? Twice they ended up with 30 yards or more for a first down? It was absolutely ridiculous. Hold after hold...and they were actually legit holds, the dudes on the Packers jerseys were almost being pulled off, I don't get how they expected the refs to miss those. Reich had to be fuming after the game even though they won.
boater Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 The QB is critical, but how you handle it comes down to money. Aaron Rodgers is drawing big bucks all-Star QB money. That has a negative impact on the player quality he can be surrounded with. It's not that the Green Bay GM failed to add those magical pieces that causes GB fans to complain, it's that he couldn't afford to. On the flipside is Josh Allen. He's on his cheap rookie contract. That gave Beane the checkbook power to surround him with Class A talent. When Josh Allen gets expensive, and he will, Bills fans will be sitting back and complaining Beane isn't surrounding Allen with talent. I figure this moment is three years +/- away. One of the things that can save you from the money trap is excellent drafting. So far, Beane looks like an average drafter.
Albany,n.y. Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Brennan Huff said: Green Bay 100% should have drafted a WR in the first round this year There are other ways to get a #1 WR, like free agency or trades (2 #1 WRs were traded the same time this offseason). Those paths are much less likely for a franchise QB. With rare exceptions, unless you're signing a guy like Brady at the end of his career, you have to get your franchise QB in the draft, and when you draft him you have to hope you were right. I'm sure if you were posting in 2005 you said the same thing when Green Bay drafted Rodgers to sit behind Favre.
Shaw66 Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: There are other ways to get a #1 WR, like free agency or trades (2 #1 WRs were traded the same time this offseason). Those paths are much less likely for a franchise QB. With rare exceptions, unless you're signing a guy like Brady at the end of his career, you have to get your franchise QB in the draft, and when you draft him you have to hope you were right. I'm sure if you were posting in 2005 you said the same thing when Green Bay drafted Rodgers to sit behind Favre. Right. You have to keep drafting until you get it right. Ryan Leaf, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers. Josh Rosen, Kyler Murray. Jets may go after Lawrence three years after Darnold. Dolphins traded for Rosen, then drafted Tua. Bills drafted Manuel, then signed Taylor, then drafted Allen. You have to keep going back to the well. And you can't afford to pass up opportunities. Giants and Broncos thought they were so smart, skipping over Allen for a position player. Where are they now? They're looking for a QB, that's where. They're hoping that somehow Lock and Jones will emerge into something they haven't been in two years. Good luck with that.
JGMcD2 Posted November 23, 2020 Author Posted November 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Right. You have to keep drafting until you get it right. Ryan Leaf, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers. Josh Rosen, Kyler Murray. Jets may go after Lawrence three years after Darnold. Dolphins traded for Rosen, then drafted Tua. Bills drafted Manuel, then signed Taylor, then drafted Allen. You have to keep going back to the well. And you can't afford to pass up opportunities. Giants and Broncos thought they were so smart, skipping over Allen for a position player. Where are they now? They're looking for a QB, that's where. They're hoping that somehow Lock and Jones will emerge into something they haven't been in two years. Good luck with that. The funny thing here is we passed on Mahomes and Watson and were able to end up with Josh. The Giants and Broncos thought they could pull off something similar? I’m not sure. The Giants took Jones the next season, similar to our decision to wait and take Allen. I know folks still harp on that, but imagine if we didn’t get it right? That’s the point though, if we passed and then didn’t get it right when we went to do it... you’re in trouble because the QB position is the MOST important on the field.
Mr. WEO Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 2 hours ago, H2o said: The Packers knew of their deficiencies at WR and in the DEEPEST class of WR talent the NFL has ever seen (regarded as such) they took not a single one. Can you imagine Claypool in GB right now playing alongside of Adams and Valdez-Scantling with Aaron Rodgers slinging the ball? Or Reagor, or Tee Higgins, or Pittman, or even Gabe Davis. No, they took a QB. I can understand Packers fans' frustration, as well as Rodgers, but he's still out there making the most of what they have. Look at Mahomes's crew of receivers---yet Rodgers is only 10 yards per game behind him in passing yards. The 2 teams are a point apart on PPG. Packers are #2 in passing TDs!--#2 in total TDs. How many more total yards/TDs/points would the Packers have with a rookie WR splitting the targets with?? The Colts scored 4 times (3 FG, TD/2 pointer) between the midpoint of the 3rd until 9 minutes left in the 4th. That's under 14 minutes. Their Defense is their problem.
Shaw66 Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 12 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: The funny thing here is we passed on Mahomes and Watson and were able to end up with Josh. The Giants and Broncos thought they could pull off something similar? I’m not sure. The Giants took Jones the next season, similar to our decision to wait and take Allen. I know folks still harp on that, but imagine if we didn’t get it right? That’s the point though, if we passed and then didn’t get it right when we went to do it... you’re in trouble because the QB position is the MOST important on the field. Difference is that Bills had a lame duck GM and everyone knew the next year was loaded with QBs. So skipping on Mahomes and getting draft ammo in the trade made sense. Giants didn't see a stocked draft class in the following year and used their #2 pick, so they couldn't improve their draft position, either. Both Giants and Broncos were looking at a hole at QB and did nothing to get in position to fill it.
Albany,n.y. Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Right. You have to keep drafting until you get it right. Ryan Leaf, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers. Josh Rosen, Kyler Murray. Jets may go after Lawrence three years after Darnold. Dolphins traded for Rosen, then drafted Tua. Bills drafted Manuel, then signed Taylor, then drafted Allen. You have to keep going back to the well. And you can't afford to pass up opportunities. Giants and Broncos thought they were so smart, skipping over Allen for a position player. Where are they now? They're looking for a QB, that's where. They're hoping that somehow Lock and Jones will emerge into something they haven't been in two years. Good luck with that. I give Arizona a lot of credit for identifying Rosen as a bust and getting him out of there while he still had some trade value and going right back & drafting Murray. It's virtually unheard of for a team to draft 1st round QBs in back to back drafts. How many times have we seen on this board that our former 1st round QBs, JP & EJ, "just need more time for the light to go on". The Bills held on to JP for 5 years & EJ for 4 years, way too long not to admit their mistakes and get each off the team a lot earlier than they did.
Albany,n.y. Posted November 23, 2020 Posted November 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Difference is that Bills had a lame duck GM and everyone knew the next year was loaded with QBs. So skipping on Mahomes and getting draft ammo in the trade made sense. Giants didn't see a stocked draft class in the following year and used their #2 pick, so they couldn't improve their draft position, either. Both Giants and Broncos were looking at a hole at QB and did nothing to get in position to fill it. What's worse is the Broncos had no interest in drafting a QB that year, since they were either going to draft Chubb if available or trade the pick to the Bills when it was obvious the Bills were drafting a QB if they had made the agreed upon trade with Denver. If Cleveland had drafted Chubb at 4, the Bills would have drafted Josh at 5 at the cost of both #1s & pick 53 of the draft (2nd round). The Giants thought they were getting a future HOFer in Barkley and thought that they could get away with Eli Manning for at least the 2 years left on his contract. They really believed with Manning they were in win now mode and Gettleman didn't have a strong opinion on any of the QBs.
Augie Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Brennan Huff said: Green Bay 100% should have drafted a WR in the first round this year They have a somewhat limited window to win more trophies with Rodgers. I would have gone for a WR in that crazy deep WR class to give him some weapons hoping to win it all. That’s what I would have done. At the same time, I can see why if you think you have a shot at a QB who wins you trophies over the NEXT 20 years, I see why you need to take that shot (I don’t think he’s the guy, but what do I know?). That’s how they got Rodgers, after all.... Bottom line: That’s why they get the big buck$ and I sit home on the couch. I will not be fired if my approach is wrong, while they can’t say the same. Hats of to Arizona for owning up the QB and coaching mistakes. Our last game still stings, but I’ll give them credit for that.
JGMcD2 Posted November 24, 2020 Author Posted November 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Brennan Huff said: Green Bay 100% should have drafted a WR in the first round this year Fair enough, but if Green Bay were to have taken a WR in the first round this year it would have been a WR that didn’t actually go until the 2nd round. Every 1st round WR went before their pick came in 2020.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) Maybe the smartest thing that McBeane did wrt their QB choice was to select the guy with the highest ceiling. The days when just having a competent QB made you a threat are kinda' gone..............the studs are inheriting the new NFL. They should have taken that approach with the WR position and drafted Metcalf to pair with Allen.........but I digress....... Edited November 24, 2020 by BADOLBILZ
Matt_In_NH Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 I agree with your premise that you need to get a franchise QB and then you can be consistently competitive for an extended period of time. However, once you have that the other pieces do also matter. I absolutely disagree with "The QB is all that matters", you need coaching, strategy and the right guys at the other posititons. It is much easier to get the "right guys at other positions" once you have a QB. The decision to draft Love is strange given Rodgers age and reasonable expecation to play another 4 years. Unless the Pack is strategizing to move on or Rodgers has given them a time frame it was a bad decision in my mind. You surround that franchise QB with as much talent at the other positions as you can. Drafting a QB in the first round does not do that. So you are both kind of right. Just because the Chiefs sat Mahomes for a year does not mean he would not have performed as a rookie. And overall the Alex Smith/Mahomes thing is totally different than Rodgers/Love. Rodgers is one of the best of all time, Smith is average.
y2zipper Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 Aaron Rodgers has one title because if you remove the outlier, that's the going rate for excellent QB play. It's hard to deliberately win titles without some luck in a one game playoff format with a hard salary cap. Teams are never one player away like that and if you can get a QB prospect you like when the starter is Rodgers age, you do it.
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