Flores: Tua benched, not hurt

[DrDawkinstein]

Just wanted to again note that Miami could have had Herbet! lol

 

I also dont believe Trevor Lawrence is as great as some folks think. I've watched almost all his games and he just doesnt over-impress me like some other prospects have (Luck, Newton, Burrow, for examples).

[QLBillsFan]

K Murray has had a solid second year but not sure he’s better than JA. The running around is not sustainable. Fields looked like for the first time in his life under pressure, and he looked like a HS qb at times. I bet Tua was high on this list last year. Silly to compare any college qb to established starters in NFL. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by QLBillsFan

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Just wanted to again note that Miami could have had Herbet! lol

 

I also dont believe Trevor Lawrence is as great as some folks think. I've watched almost all his games and he just doesnt over-impress me like some other prospects have (Luck, Newton, Burrow, for examples).

Come Dr! Not one human being on the planet would have drafted Herbert over Tua.

 

its weird how this board is about other team’s qbs. One bad game and they suck.  Yet, we preach patience with our own. I thought the Fins should stuck with Fitz because why rush Tua off a major injury? And Tua has certainly not been great but the guy has 6 tds 0 ints and 100 QB rating.  As a rookie off a major injury on a team that lack big time talent on offense.  

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Come Dr! Not one human being on the planet would have drafted Herbert over Tua.

 

its weird how this board is about other team’s qbs. One bad game and they suck.  Yet, we preach patience with our own. I thought the Fins should stuck with Fitz because why rush Tua off a major injury? And Tua has certainly not been great but the guy has 6 tds 0 ints and 100 QB rating.  As a rookie off a major injury on a team that lack big time talent on offense.  

 

I'm a big SEC homer and specifically Bama fan so I already have a lot of love for Tua. But I was never really sold on him as an NFL QB, especially not after his injuries. We'll see.

 

My comments are more having fun with schadenfreude and the Dolphins than the specific QBs.

 

And even if Tua shows promise, I believe the Dolphins franchise will ruin him. They are already on track to blow it with this "start him-pull him" nonsense.

 

edit: wrt "Not one human being on the planet would have drafted Herbert over Tua"... I dunno. Beane picked Allen over some much higher thought of prospects. I bet some teams in the league had Herbert ratd higher.

Edited November 24, 2020 by DrDawkinstein

[C.Biscuit97]

47 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I agree with the above but respectfully disagree with your last sentence. Not every great college player is a sure thing in the NFL. There are too many avenues towards failure.

 

As far as Trevor, he is said to be the best prospect since Elway in 1982. He has an insane amount of talent. If the Jets can keep it going and tank, the franchise will immediately increase in value. If he is as good as he would seem to be, he will eventually win games, perhaps even super bowls (as much as I dislike saying this). Playing in the NYC area could make him one of the most popular players in any sport IF he turns out to be great.

 

QBs are even more important than they were in 1982. The Jets would be wise to tank.

Where did you hear he is the best prospect since 1982? I haven’t heard that at all. A very good prospect but Luck was better out of college. So was Peyton. I think Lawrence could be very good but I won’t be shocked at all if he is a bust on the Jets if they Sam Darnold him. That franchise doesn’t need to tank. They are trash.

 

and I know you remember the thread I started about Qbs.  Honestly, it has never been easier to put up numbers in the nfl. Rookie 6th founders are throwing for 300 yards in their first start. Herbert is on pace to throw for 5,000 yards if he played in all 16 games. The difference is in finding the truly elite guys. 

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I'm a big SEC homer and specifically Bama fan so I already have a lot of love for Tua. But I was never really sold on him as an NFL QB, especially not after his injuries. We'll see.

 

My comments are more having fun with schadenfreude and the Dolphins than the specific QBs.

 

And even if Tua shows promise, I believe the Dolphins franchise will ruin him. They are already on track to blow it with this "start him-pull him" nonsense.

Fair. I think Flores has done an amazing job but his handling of qbs has been questionable. Should have played Rosen to see what he has and gotten a really high pick. Then then benching of Fitz and then to bench Tua in a touchdown game.  He might be too trigger happy. 
 

the Bills made mistakes Allen’s rookie year but they never wavered in support him.  That is huge. 

[Doc]

36 minutes ago, SCBills said:

People always trash OSU QB's, but never really go into why..  This is my thing:

 

My worry with OSU QB's is that the team is so head and shoulders above the rest of the conference in terms of both talent and athleticism.  

 

Clemson is the same in the ACC, but they at least face SEC-like athleticism throughout the conference.   Trevor will have played Miami and Notre Dame (likely) before the CFP.  Clemson also plays South Carolina every year and has been scheduling a second SEC team early season as of late. 

 

Fields biggest game of the year will have been..... Indiana? 

 

Even a team like FSU, which is a dumpster fire lately, has multiple NFL guys on that defense. 

 

B1G has a lot of well coached, solid teams, but there's a reason it seems like a shock to the system every time OSU plays Clemson/SEC in the CFP. 

 

OSU did step up, albeit in a loss to Clemson, last year - I will admit that. 

 

Yup, that's the why.  

 

3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Scout the player, not the helmet. Fields may not be a perfect prospect like Lawrence but the issues he has are not related to the fact he plays at Ohio state. He’s a different level of talent at the position than they’ve ever had, As he is the highest rated player the program has ever had recruiting wise . He is the first one to play for Ryan day who is a QB coach by trade, coached in the nfl and runs an NFL type offense. Acknlowleding Fields areas of development is not analogous to saying all osu QBs fail in the nfl and so will he. His areas for development will come with  experience - learning to go through reads more quickly, pre-snap/post snap. He’s a young player with a high ceiling. To say he’s bound for the same fate as any other QB from osu is ignoring that there has ever been a good nfl QB from places like LSU, Oregon, Texas tech, Wyoming, Oklahoma etc - just to mention a few successful young QBs over the last few years who game from schools who did not previously produce Good NFL  QBs - and not looking at the change in system, coaching, etc that takes place at those schools over the years and how that impacts the type of prospect that will emerge, let alone the simple fact that every player is different. I think he needs more experience and is not as good as Lawrence right now, but I would say that no matter where he played. 

 

Fields could be the unicorn like the guys from those schools you mentioned.  But am I putting my job on the line as a GM taking him 2nd overall, much less having to trade into the spot?  No way.

[DrDawkinstein]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair. I think Flores has done an amazing job but his handling of qbs has been questionable. Should have played Rosen to see what he has and gotten a really high pick. Then then benching of Fitz and then to bench Tua in a touchdown game.  He might be too trigger happy. 
 

the Bills made mistakes Allen’s rookie year but they never wavered in support him.  That is huge. 

 

Yeah, up until recently I had been real worried about Flores and the great job he was doing in Miami. But watching him (and ownership) screw up with Tua makes me feel a bit better. haha

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

I agree with the above but respectfully disagree with your last sentence. Not every great college player is a sure thing in the NFL. There are too many avenues towards failure.

 

As far as Trevor, he is said to be the best prospect since Elway in 1982. He has an insane amount of talent. If the Jets can keep it going and tank, the franchise will immediately increase in value. If he is as good as he would seem to be, he will eventually win games, perhaps even super bowls (as much as I dislike saying this). Playing in the NYC area could make him one of the most popular players in any sport IF he turns out to be great.

 

QBs are even more important than they were in 1982. The Jets would be wise to tank.

 

Fair points about tanking but I disagree about the value experts bring to the decision.  Consider Mahomes, how many experts were saying he was a can't miss prospect? Very few.  Reid saw something that most of the experts didn't see.  Or even closer to home what were the "experts" saying about Allen?  Or Darnold?  Or Mayfield? 

 

My concern with tanking is it puts a stain on a franchise that is forever.  If Lawrence were the next Mahomes it would be worth it.  I just question the certitude with which so many people are claiming that Lawrence is a can't miss prospect.  My 50 years of following the NFL have taught me there is no such thing.

 

 

[Mark Vader]

On 11/22/2020 at 4:54 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Everyone in the league was saying the same thing about Allen after his first season. Maybe give it a little longer

The big difference is that Tua Tagovailoa had massive hype coming into the league, Josh Allen was quickly written off as an imminent failure.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Fair points about tanking but I disagree about the value experts bring to the decision.  Consider Mahomes, how many experts were saying he was a can't miss prospect? Very few.  Reid saw something that most of the experts didn't see.  Or even closer to home what were the "experts" saying about Allen?  Or Darnold?  Or Mayfield? 

 

My concern with tanking is it puts a stain on a franchise that is forever.  If Lawrence were the next Mahomes it would be worth it.  I just question the certitude with which so many people are claiming that Lawrence is a can't miss prospect.  My 50 years of following the NFL have taught me there is no such thing.

 

 

And your points are quite valid.

I am a huge Crimson Tide Fan and agree that Trevor had an easy ride. Clemson has a pansy ass schedule no doubt, but I saw what he did against Alabama. The kid can play, and there is nothing at the QB position that he doesn't appear to be potentially great at. I am not saying that he will be better than Josh. Who knows? But greatness would not surprise me at all for a kid with this much size, speed, mobility, arm strength, instinct, and perhaps even intelligence.

 I don't know what else to look for in a QB.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[Figster]

8 hours ago, TBBills said:

 

Of course you can learns something from Fitz... 

A. Never put Fitz in when the playoffs are on the line.

 

B. Fitz loves INTs

Chan Gailey loves him some Fitzy because Fitzpatrick is a brilliant field general that finds ways to move the football including using his own hard head/ body as a ram rod to fire up his teamates.  I don't fault Fitz for the loss. Tua was playing poorly throughout the game. Tua by nature is a game manager and can become a bit tentative until the game is on the line IMO. The Alabama D is practically a scoring machine. Combined with Sabans play smart football on O mentality. Let the D do the dirty work. It may take a little nudge to put Tua into more of aggressive mode for the NFL  Perhaps this is what the Dolphins HC had in mind  Fitzpatrick on the othr hand is the complete opposite. Balls to the wall on every play.

[dorquemada]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

edit: wrt "Not one human being on the planet would have drafted Herbert over Tua"... I dunno. Beane picked Allen over some much higher thought of prospects. I bet some teams in the league had Herbert ratd higher.

 

WRONG JOSH!  WRONG JOSH!

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Mark Vader said:

The big difference is that Tua Tagovailoa had massive hype coming into the league, Josh Allen was quickly written off as an imminent failure.

Ok that never happened. Nobody wrote him off as a failure. Everyone agreed he played earlier than was ideal. Everyone agreed after his elbow injury the first year,  it has been generally a steady improvement .

I have no idea if Tua is going to be good. We will all have a better idea this time next year

[TBBills]

1 minute ago, Figster said:

Chan Gailey loves him some Fitzy because Fitzpatrick is a brilliant field general that finds ways to move the football including using his own hard head/ body as a ram rod to fire up his teamates.  I don't fault Fitz for the loss. Tua was playing poorly throughout the game. Tua by nature is a game manager and can become a bit tentative until the game is on the line IMO. The Alabama D is practically a scoring machine. Combined with Sabans play smart football on O mentality. Let the D do the dirty work. It may take a little nudge to put Tua into more of aggressive mode for the NFL  Perhaps this is what the Dolphins HC had in mind  Fitzpatrick on the othr hand is the complete opposite. Balls to the wall on every play.

Which is why he will never lead a team to the playoffs. Ball to the wall but that is something that is bad when you are a QB.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Figster said:

Chan Gailey loves him some Fitzy because Fitzpatrick is a brilliant field general that finds ways to move the football including using his own hard head/ body as a ram rod to fire up his teamates.  I don't fault Fitz for the loss. Tua was playing poorly throughout the game. Tua by nature is a game manager and can become a bit tentative until the game is on the line IMO. The Alabama D is practically a scoring machine. Combined with Sabans play smart football on O mentality. Let the D do the dirty work. It may take a little nudge to put Tua into more of aggressive mode for the NFL  Perhaps this is what the Dolphins HC had in mind  Fitzpatrick on the othr hand is the complete opposite. Balls to the wall on every play.

 

Tua was the OPPOSITE of the classic Bama game manager who just needed to hand off and rely on the defense. Tua was throwing for 400yards a game and not even playing the 4th quarter! He is not a tentative game manager. Never was.

[letsgoteam]

Wont complain about a divisional opponent shooting themselves in the foot by creating their own QB controversy.

[TBBills]

Just now, letsgoteam said:

Wont complain about a divisional opponent shooting themselves in the foot by creating their own QB controversy.

You know you are not a good QB when you are in controversy with Fitzpatrick.

[Figster]

16 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Tua was the OPPOSITE of the classic Bama game manager who just needed to hand off and rely on the defense. Tua was throwing for 400yards a game and not even playing the 4th quarter! He is not a tentative game manager. Never was.

Are you trying to convince me Saban wasn't drilling into Tua to protect the football? Or Alabama didn't have a good run game?

 

Tua did play it safe despite the lofty numbers IMO. 

 

Allen is a good game manager that knows when to turn it on in the 4th quarter IMO.

 

I'm not sure why thats considered such a bad thing for a QB. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Figster

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, Figster said:

Are you trying to convince me Saban wasn't drilling into Tua to protect the football? Or Alabama didn't have a good run game?

 

Tua did play it safe despite the lofty numbers IMO. 

 

Neither of those negate the fact that he was a slinger over a game manager. Just look at the Leaders in the box scores for the 2019 season.

 

Against Duke

Passing: Tua Tagovailoa 26-31, 336 yards, 4 TDs

Rushing: Jerome Ford 10 carries, 64 yards, 1 TD

 

Against South Carolina - 495 passing yards to 76 rushing yards

 

Against Ole Miss - Tua Tagovailoa 26-36, 418 yards, 6 TDs, vs 155 rushing yards.

 

etc, etc

 

Sure, they had a good run game. But really only used it to burn the clock after Tua's passing attack put them up 40 points at halftime.

 

 

[Figster]

13 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Neither of those negate the fact that he was a slinger over a game manager. Just look at the Leaders in the box scores for the 2019 season.

 

Against Duke

Passing: Tua Tagovailoa 26-31, 336 yards, 4 TDs

Rushing: Jerome Ford 10 carries, 64 yards, 1 TD

 

Against South Carolina - 495 passing yards to 76 rushing yards

 

Against Ole Miss - Tua Tagovailoa 26-36, 418 yards, 6 TDs, vs 155 rushing yards.

 

etc, etc

 

Sure, they had a good run game. But really only used it to burn the clock after Tua's passing attack put them up 40 points at halftime.

 

 

Fair enough, 

 

I admit,  Tua has shown an ability to make big plays at the college level. Pin point accuracy goes a long ways in football. In closer games however Tua's play becomes more calculated and a bit tenative IMO.

 

From what I've seen... 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Figster