shoshin Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 "Deep State Globalist." These have become so loaded that I don't even know what they mean. If by using "deep state," you mean that he's a more traditional politician and will do deals with others and not demonize them. I agree with that. I think Joe is a compromiser--he's shown that by living so long and successfully in the swamp. And globalist, I'm not sure what anyone means using this word these days. I'm for global free trade, good treaties so people and goods move freely around the world. I'm for having allies that we trust via our agreements. I'm against tariffs except for countries who use/abuse them against us (China obviously). I think the UN is EXTREMELY helpful as a way for countries to dialog. I believe the US should play some role on the global stage in helping less fortunate countries and people, though how and when we do this is always a hard question. So...I don't know what "deep state globalist" means to you and generally the terms have all three been so overused as stereotype that I don't use them. I look to specific policies and policy declarations and try to attack those. That said, I'm guilty of using "trumpism" to capture something so I should be careful myself. 1
DrDawkinstein Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: I agree to some extent...I tend to go in the direction that the country was already torn apart, and that the socialists and their media allies were hiding beneath the surface...imo conservatives sensed the country was slipping away into endless bureaucracy and globalism that they voted for someone they felt wasn’t a part of the deep state- a person who wasn’t beholden to the PR machine of the military industrial complex...to me, this is the REAL reason the Left, including Republicans, hated Trump... Sure, the tweets and tantrums were cringe and annoying as hell...But imo they hated him because he shined a light on who they really were and what their goal was for the country- their hatred of his policies, which thwarted their own agenda of limiting the growth and self sufficiency of the country, through big government control, as they prepared to make us a more subservient member of a global NWO, had been exposed... No illustration of this could have been more clear than when, during Trump’s State of the Union address, when announcing the lowest minority unemployment rate ever, socialists and Democrats just sat on their hands, and couldn’t be more unhappy...I was blown away...they can’t even be happy for their own, supposed constituency, if it doesn’t support their agenda of showing Trump to be a racist...it was disgusting- but VERY illuminating... Was Trump a narcissist? Yes Was he immature at times? Yes But his policies seemed to be working for the country. And because his views seemed to try to maintain individual liberty, I was able to move passed that other stuff... Joe Biden, on the other hand is a Deep State globalist imo- just like Hillary, Obama, Bush Jr, Clinton, and Bush Sr, before him...The only difference is Joe is now being controlled by the socialist wing of his party, which is extremely dangerous for anyone who loves this country. May the good lord bring peace and understanding back to this nation...👍 I appreciate your willingness to have an open and honest discussion, but man, with all due respect, your use of talking point boogeyman labels makes it difficult (impossible) to seriously engage you. Using "socialism" and "deep state" and "globalist" and "NWO"... all the classic dog whistles and misnomers... is more an indication that you are more steeped in false and extreme conspiracy theories meant to rile than you are interested in reality. Not trying to come down hard on you, but want to point this stuff out. Coming in with this is basically a non-starter to a conversation since it isnt worth the large effort it will take to debunk this stuff just to get you to a point where we are talking about the same reality and not debating from some fantasy land that the propaganda machine has indoctrinated into you. You want the country to come together, but you arent even in the same building. I sincerely hope you find the truth soon enough. Go Bills. 1
TBBills Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Joe Biden, on the other hand is a Deep State globalist imo This is funny b.c you said Biden as if Trump wasn't the one with the "Deep State" supporters. "Hey lets make some ***** up and pretend like it's true" Edited November 24, 2020 by TBBills
JaCrispy Posted November 24, 2020 Author Posted November 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, shoshin said: "Deep State Globalist." These have become so loaded that I don't even know what they mean. If by using "deep state," you mean that he's a more traditional politician and will do deals with others and not demonize them. I agree with that. I think Joe is a compromiser--he's shown that by living so long and successfully in the swamp. And globalist, I'm not sure what anyone means using this word these days. I'm for global free trade, good treaties so people and goods move freely around the world. I'm for having allies that we trust via our agreements. I'm against tariffs except for countries who use/abuse them against us (China obviously). I think the UN is EXTREMELY helpful as a way for countries to dialog. I believe the US should play some role on the global stage in helping less fortunate countries and people, though how and when we do this is always a hard question. So...I don't know what "deep state globalist" means to you and generally the terms have all three been so overused as stereotype that I don't use them. I look to specific policies and policy declarations and try to attack those. That said, I'm guilty of using "trumpism" to capture something so I should be careful myself. These are great questions and I’m glad you asked... So, basically our government is so big now that congress has very little influence over the agenda of the country... The Deep State is a result of decades of various government agencies hiring unelected bureaucrats to carry on a particular agenda long after the politicians, running those agencies, are out of office...Typically, referring to the State Department, which engages and carries on relationships with the global community, it can also encompass other government agencies that have a similar type of bureaucracy... This is a way to usurp the will of the people, and ensure a particular agenda gets implemented over generations, regardless of who the next elected official is- be it Democrat or Republican...this is also why you might hear some people refer to our democracy as an illusion...their thinking is that we would end up in a similar position no matter what because of the Deep State... Now, the idea of the Deep State ties into the notion of globalism...In 1990/91 George Bush Sr praised the coming New World Order, which seeks to eliminate nation states, and put them under the rule of a one world government...there would be one global religion (ie the state), one global currency, one healthcare system, and no private property or ownership of any kind. And, supposedly, there is a massive movement toward this that goes beyond Republican or Democrat. But in order to be successful, the US constitution must me torn down and replaced with a more “global” document...that’s why you’re starting to hear things from Leftist politicians about how America is inherently racist and that the constitution is a racist document...they have to say that to try and persuade people to rally against it, and for change... Trump, however, was a nationalist who, seemingly, acted against this movement, in an effort to preserve the sanctity of the nation...he wanted to secure the boarders, not eliminate them...he wanted to bring troops home as opposed to starting new wars...and he exposed much of the corruption that was purposely trying to undermine the country...Many conservatives believe that is why the Left (along with the Deep State) fought so hard, on an unprecedented scale, to remove him from office...And that is likely the reason many of them might believe there was something shady with the elections... Now, Joe Biden, whether he actually believes in the cause or not, has chosen to go along with the Deep State and globalist agenda...they seek conformity through censorship and intimidation...redistribution of wealth and assets through newly defined code words like “racism”...ultimately they will seek the end of private property and free enterprise, in order for the state to have full control...this is likely why you see many corporations bowing down, for fear of retribution and endless litigation... So to me, it’s not really a Democrat vs Republican thing, but more of a NWO vs America struggle...is it better to have independence and individual liberty? Or are we better off being ruled by an authoritative government that essentially owns us? This has basically been the human struggle since the dawn of time...
JaCrispy Posted November 24, 2020 Author Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: I appreciate your willingness to have an open and honest discussion, but man, with all due respect, your use of talking point boogeyman labels makes it difficult (impossible) to seriously engage you. Using "socialism" and "deep state" and "globalist" and "NWO"... all the classic dog whistles and misnomers... is more an indication that you are more steeped in false and extreme conspiracy theories meant to rile than you are interested in reality. Not trying to come down hard on you, but want to point this stuff out. Coming in with this is basically a non-starter to a conversation since it isnt worth the large effort it will take to debunk this stuff just to get you to a point where we are talking about the same reality and not debating from some fantasy land that the propaganda machine has indoctrinated into you. You want the country to come together, but you arent even in the same building. I sincerely hope you find the truth soon enough. Go Bills. Appreciate the post, man...and believe me, I get it...👍 I completely understand where you’re coming from...One of the reasons I don’t really like talking politics is because we are only exposed to the surface stuff and the narrative that is put before us...That’s why I try to read every and anything I can- maybe to somehow try and sort it all out because global politics is extremely complicated and there are many layers... I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers, but perhaps, if something I say intrigues someone enough to look into a topic deeper, on there own, it’s worth it...But I appreciate your response...👍 Edited November 24, 2020 by JaCrispy
shoshin Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: These are great questions and I’m glad you asked... So, basically our government is so big now that congress has very little influence over the agenda of the country... The Deep State is a result of decades of various government agencies hiring unelected bureaucrats to carry on a particular agenda long after the politicians, running those agencies, are out of office...Typically, referring to the State Department, which engages and carries on relationships with the global community, it can also encompass other government agencies that have a similar type of bureaucracy... This is a way to usurp the will of the people, and ensure a particular agenda gets implemented over generations, regardless of who the next elected official is- be it Democrat or Republican...this is also why you might hear some people refer to our democracy as an illusion...their thinking is that we would end up in a similar position no matter what because of the Deep State... Now, the idea of the Deep State ties into the notion of globalism...In 1990/91 George Bush Sr praised the coming New World Order, which seeks to eliminate nation states, and put them under the rule of a one world government...there would be one global religion (ie the state), one global currency, one healthcare system, and no private property or ownership of any kind. And, supposedly, there is a massive movement toward this that goes beyond Republican or Democrat. But in order to be successful, the US constitution must me torn down and replaced with a more “global” document...that’s why you’re starting to hear things from Leftist politicians about how America is inherently racist and that the constitution is a racist document...they have to say that to try and persuade people to rally against it, and for change... Trump, however, was a nationalist who, seemingly, acted against this movement, in an effort to preserve the sanctity of the nation...he wanted to secure the boarders, not eliminate them...he wanted to bring troops home as opposed to starting new wars...and he exposed much of the corruption that was purposely trying to undermine the country...Many conservatives believe that is why the Left (along with the Deep State) fought so hard, on an unprecedented scale, to remove him from office...And that is likely the reason many of them might believe there was something shady with the elections... Now, Joe Biden, whether he actually believes in the cause or not, has chosen to go along with the Deep State and globalist agenda...they seek conformity through censorship and intimidation...redistribution of wealth and assets through newly defined code words like “racism”...ultimately they will seek the end of private property and free enterprise, in order for the state to have full control...this is likely why you see many corporations bowing down, for fear of retribution and endless litigation... So to me, it’s not really a Democrat vs Republican thing, but more of a NWO vs America struggle...is it better to have independence and individual liberty? Or are we better off being ruled by an authoritative government that essentially owns us? This has basically been the human struggle since the dawn of time... I appreciate the respectful discussion. Bush's NWO is not where I thought this would go. You said that he sought "to eliminate nation states, and put them under the rule of a one world government...there would be one global religion (ie the state), one global currency, one healthcare system, and no private property or ownership of any kind. And, supposedly, there is a massive movement toward this that goes beyond Republican or Democrat. But in order to be successful, the US constitution must me torn down and replaced with a more “global” document..." Since we are here, with your interpretation, and I don't know how old you are so I'm asking: Do you realize that none of that was described by Bush? And that the left at the time saw his NWO wording as creating a monopolar power in the US (the opposite of what you're saying) and an invitation for US to soft-colonize the world? The reason I ask is this: NWO (not to be confused with NWA, same era though) was interpreted by conspiracists of their day as many things, very little of which were in Bush's words, and almost none of which came to pass. Could it be that he was just a guy voicing a certain vision, without malice or deep conspiratorial interest, that some people just didn't agree with? The conspiracy thinking is always 10 miles from Occam's Razor. It assumes that groups of people form cabals of interest that never get exposed...but that run everything. The Occam's Razor thinking is more like this: Politicians and people mostly do their best, people often act in their self interest as well, these things sometimes conflict...and that's all that normally happens as we go from birth to death. Basically, we're all human. And that's the same cycle we see play out in politics. Politics is merely the arena where disagreement becomes law. The new ingredient is the echo chambering where there's no ability of people to appreciate the other's ideas and discuss them civilly. The Reagan/O'Neil story is overplayed but it's not wrong. And in my neighborhood, we have a gathering of 12ish people every morning that comes together and talks about things, sometimes politics, around our circle of dogs who are all jumping on each other. Some Ds, some Rs. Sometimes it gets a little awkward but we all keep coming back and in close like that, we make it all work because we're not behind anonymous usernames or keyboards. NWA > New [world] Order Edited November 24, 2020 by shoshin 1
DrDawkinstein Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 30 minutes ago, shoshin said: The conspiracy thinking is always 10 miles from Occam's Razor. It assumes that groups of people form cabals of interest that never get exposed...but that run everything. The Occam's Razor thinking is more like this: Politicians and people mostly do their best, people often act in their self interest as well, these things sometimes conflict...and that's all that normally happens as we go from birth to death. Basically, we're all human. And that's the same cycle we see play out in politics. Politics is merely the arena where disagreement becomes law. This. Very much, this. I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes. By Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchett in Good Omens: “It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”
shoshin Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: This. Very much, this. I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes. By Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchett in Good Omens: “It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.” Good quote. I prefer some of Gaiman's other works: Neverwhere, The Ocean At the End of the Lane. Really don't like American Gods the book, like the series. There is something to self interest serving itself: The military industrial complex needs to eat. The social welfare programs need to employ more people. Etc. But this is not conspiracy: It's just humans trying to get a little more on a large enough scale to create leviathan. Neither party ever has the stomach to knock it back. 1
JaCrispy Posted November 24, 2020 Author Posted November 24, 2020 53 minutes ago, shoshin said: I appreciate the respectful discussion. Bush's NWO is not where I thought this would go. You said that he sought "to eliminate nation states, and put them under the rule of a one world government...there would be one global religion (ie the state), one global currency, one healthcare system, and no private property or ownership of any kind. And, supposedly, there is a massive movement toward this that goes beyond Republican or Democrat. But in order to be successful, the US constitution must me torn down and replaced with a more “global” document..." Since we are here, with your interpretation, and I don't know how old you are so I'm asking: Do you realize that none of that was described by Bush? And that the left at the time saw his NWO wording as creating a monopolar power in the US (the opposite of what you're saying) and an invitation for US to soft-colonize the world? The reason I ask is this: NWO (not to be confused with NWA, same era though) was interpreted by conspiracists of their day as many things, very little of which were in Bush's words, and almost none of which came to pass. Could it be that he was just a guy voicing a certain vision, without malice or deep conspiratorial interest, that some people just didn't agree with? The conspiracy thinking is always 10 miles from Occam's Razor. It assumes that groups of people form cabals of interest that never get exposed...but that run everything. The Occam's Razor thinking is more like this: Politicians and people mostly do their best, people often act in their self interest as well, these things sometimes conflict...and that's all that normally happens as we go from birth to death. Basically, we're all human. And that's the same cycle we see play out in politics. Politics is merely the arena where disagreement becomes law. The new ingredient is the echo chambering where there's no ability of people to appreciate the other's ideas and discuss them civilly. The Reagan/O'Neil story is overplayed but it's not wrong. And in my neighborhood, we have a gathering of 12ish people every morning that comes together and talks about things, sometimes politics, around our circle of dogs who are all jumping on each other. Some Ds, some Rs. Sometimes it gets a little awkward but we all keep coming back and in close like that, we make it all work because we're not behind anonymous usernames or keyboards. NWA > New [world] Order Good points... And honestly, yes, I am aware none of what I said was described by Bush Sr...In fact, as I recall, he was rather vague when describing the NWO- rule of law, rather than the law of the jungle...but I don’t think that means that his vision didn’t have deeper meaning...after all, he was a longtime member of the CIA and, unlike his son, he had much experience on an international level. My problem is, I’ve spent the last 15 years of reading and watching interviews and other materials (going back to WW2) trying to fill in the gaps just to get a better understanding of what’s going on...It started with 9/11, then went to Bush and his BS Iraq war... but that’s why I always say “imo”, because it is purely speculation from researched materials...I don’t want people to take my word for it- but to go and research it on their own...maybe they can come back and teach me something I didn’t see... Sometimes, you can have a situation like where the US hates the Soviet Union. But they are willing to team up together to defeat a common enemy like the Nazis, and then turn their aggression toward each other afterwards... I don’t exactly understand the relationship between the NWO, Deep State, MIC, or globalists...Some or all could be working together now, and later on become enemies...some might be different names for the same organization...I’m not entirely sure...but I have a very general idea of what they are and how they might operate, but obviously, no corporate media is going to legitimately try and report on this stuff...You have to dig deep elsewhere... It’s also important to point out that not all members of the CIA work together...each job is on a “need to know” basis...and sometimes, this might cause people, on the same team, to be, unknowingly, working against each other...so you can see how complicated it can get...(not to mention there are, supposedly, 38 levels of classic action- and the president is NOT privy to all of them). This because the president is not deemed to be on a “need to know” basis because he is elected every 4 years where the Deep State go on, long after he’s gone... I know I’m kinda all over the place...hopefully you were able to get, at least, a little bit of clarification on where I’m coming from...
shoshin Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 18 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Good points... I know I’m kinda all over the place...hopefully you were able to get, at least, a little bit of clarification on where I’m coming from... Thank you again. I go by this adage. "Three can keep a secret if two are dead." If there was a wide-ranging deep conspiracy going back 80 years, we'd know about it. 1
WideNine Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, shoshin said: Good quote. I prefer some of Gaiman's other works: Neverwhere, The Ocean At the End of the Lane. Really don't like American Gods the book, like the series. There is something to self interest serving itself: The military industrial complex needs to eat. The social welfare programs need to employ more people. Etc. But this is not conspiracy: It's just humans trying to get a little more on a large enough scale to create leviathan. Neither party ever has the stomach to knock it back. That saying that "Powers once assumed are never relinquished, just as bureaucracies, once created, never die." There is a glaring gap in the polar perceptions of the GOP and Democrat camps and their devotees that revolve around campaign buzz words and phrases like "government spending", and "waste", "regulations", "global", "social".... they call up images that do not have a lot of value in the real and practical sense. Government spending over the Trump administration increased dramatically, yet GOP party hardliners running for the Senate still used "reduce government spending" as tag-lines in their campaigns. I could simply use government spending as a catch-phrase to damn this administration, but I use it as a rebuttal because with Covid-19 and a myriad of other issues a government has minimal options but to borrow to keep the economy afloat and of course the situation effects GDP. When candidates use those tag lines people need to ask, how will you reduce spending? Will reducing spending increase revenue and GDP? Are there things we should be borrowing and investing in as a government to better secure our economic long-term health? There is a kind of lexicon that has arisen around extremist conspiracies that uses phrases like "Deep State" that have grown up in the fertile soil of social media echo-chambers - and I get suspicious when folks use Q-Anon-speak or talking points - even more disturbing is actually voting Q-Anon believers into congressional office. Such additions of potentially like-minded conspiracy enthusiasts could usher in a whole new level of empty, absurd, and intellectually irresponsible additions to political speech and posturing that can lead to nothing good. Edited November 24, 2020 by WideNine 2
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted November 24, 2020 Posted November 24, 2020 2 hours ago, JaCrispy said: These are great questions and I’m glad you asked... So, basically our government is so big now that congress has very little influence over the agenda of the country... The Deep State is a result of decades of various government agencies hiring unelected bureaucrats to carry on a particular agenda long after the politicians, running those agencies, are out of office...Typically, referring to the State Department, which engages and carries on relationships with the global community, it can also encompass other government agencies that have a similar type of bureaucracy... This is a way to usurp the will of the people, and ensure a particular agenda gets implemented over generations, regardless of who the next elected official is- be it Democrat or Republican...this is also why you might hear some people refer to our democracy as an illusion...their thinking is that we would end up in a similar position no matter what because of the Deep State... Now, the idea of the Deep State ties into the notion of globalism...In 1990/91 George Bush Sr praised the coming New World Order, which seeks to eliminate nation states, and put them under the rule of a one world government...there would be one global religion (ie the state), one global currency, one healthcare system, and no private property or ownership of any kind. And, supposedly, there is a massive movement toward this that goes beyond Republican or Democrat. But in order to be successful, the US constitution must me torn down and replaced with a more “global” document...that’s why you’re starting to hear things from Leftist politicians about how America is inherently racist and that the constitution is a racist document...they have to say that to try and persuade people to rally against it, and for change... Trump, however, was a nationalist who, seemingly, acted against this movement, in an effort to preserve the sanctity of the nation...he wanted to secure the boarders, not eliminate them...he wanted to bring troops home as opposed to starting new wars...and he exposed much of the corruption that was purposely trying to undermine the country...Many conservatives believe that is why the Left (along with the Deep State) fought so hard, on an unprecedented scale, to remove him from office...And that is likely the reason many of them might believe there was something shady with the elections... Now, Joe Biden, whether he actually believes in the cause or not, has chosen to go along with the Deep State and globalist agenda...they seek conformity through censorship and intimidation...redistribution of wealth and assets through newly defined code words like “racism”...ultimately they will seek the end of private property and free enterprise, in order for the state to have full control...this is likely why you see many corporations bowing down, for fear of retribution and endless litigation... So to me, it’s not really a Democrat vs Republican thing, but more of a NWO vs America struggle...is it better to have independence and individual liberty? Or are we better off being ruled by an authoritative government that essentially owns us? This has basically been the human struggle since the dawn of time... Very nicely done Ja. Exceptional recap. Btw I obtained a copy of the 1956 Newsweek celebrating Ike’s victory over Adlai Stevenson. Looking through it, there are more than a few recognizable names..Prescott Bush and Al Gore Sr to name two. In another issue, Richard Nixon goes full “red scourge” in describing Adlai Stevenson. Interestingly, you could change a couple names, change a couple words and you’ve got the Trump = Russian story. There are no new ideas, only new people to be duped. 1
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