Bruce Smith shocking statistic...he never led the NFL in sacks in any year he played

[sirebors]

Who is next on the list as a 3-4 and how many did he have? 

[HardyBoy]

2 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

If Bruce played in a 4-3 defense, he might've had 300 sacks. He's the only DE to AVERAGE double digit sacks over a (19 year) career.

# 78, was the greatest Buffalo Bill ever, IMO....Reggiewas a great player, but he couldn't hold Bruce's jock...

 

The league used to run a lot more on first and second down, when the bills would have been in their base 3-4 defense. So, guessing the majority of his sacks came on third down...so were they running three on the dline on third down too, or switch to a nickle with two lbs and 4 dline?

 

I was in 4th grade during the last super bowl appearance, so I definitely was old enough to be a true fan of sports, but I had no idea what I was watching scheme wise (I still largely don't, lol), so genuine question.

Edited November 12, 2020 by HardyBoy

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I'll give you another shocking statistic!  He wasn't even the best defensive end in the game while playing.

 

That was Reggie White.

 

Bruce Smith is still one of the all-time best Buffalo Bills, up there with OJ and only a few others.

 

 

 

You need to check the dictionary on the meaning of the word "statistic," 'cause what you've got there ain't one, it's an opinion.

 

Not a wildly unreasonable one, but it's in no way a statistic.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Buftex]

5 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I'll give you another shocking statistic!  He wasn't even the best defensive end in the game while playing.

 

That was Reggie White.

 

Bruce Smith is still one of the all-time best Buffalo Bills, up there with OJ and only a few others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong!!  :}

[dollars 2 donuts]

6 hours ago, matter2003 said:

I had to double check this but it is true...totally crazy!  

 

In Smith's best year when he had 19 sacks in 1990, Derrick Thomas of the Chiefs had 20. His second highest total was 15 in 1986 when Lawrence Taylor had 20.5 and Smith was actually 5th after Taylor, Dexter Manley with 18.5, Reggie White with 18, and Sean Jones with 15.5. He had 14 3 times and 13 twice as well. 

 

In all, Smith had 13 seasons where he had double digit sacks.  12 were with the Bills, the other was his second season in Washington at age 37.  

 

He did lead the NFL twice in forced fumbles with 5 in 1994 and 1996, and is 8th in career forced fumbles with 43. Robert Mathis is all time leader in forced fumbles with 54. Julius Peppers 2nd at 52. Active leaders are Chandler Jones and Robert Quinn tied with 27.

 

i knew this and I was always amazed by this, too.

 

side note, I believe that year Derrick Thomas 7 sacks in 1 game.

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

The league used to run a lot more on first and second down, when the bills would have been in their base 3-4 defense. So, guessing the majority of his sacks came on third down...so were they running three on the dline on third down too, or switch to a nickle with two lbs and 4 dline?

 

I was in 4th grade during the last super bowl appearance, so I definitely was old enough to be a true fan of sports, but I had no idea what I was watching scheme wise (I still largely don't, lol), so genuine question.

 

With the amount of passes being thrown now I would imagine it is only a matter of time before his sack record is broken as players are getting far more attempts at them than they did back in the 1980s and 1990s

[HardyBoy]

5 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

With the amount of passes being thrown now I would imagine it is only a matter of time before his sack record is broken as players are getting far more attempts at them than they did back in the 1980s and 1990s

 

Fair, but the super quick sub three second pass plays likely offset much if not all of that probably.

[SMAKCruiser]

1 minute ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Fair, but the super quick sub three second pass plays likely offset much if not all of that probably.

And there's no way a pass rusher would go into his 40s today

[Hebert19]

7 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

A Bills WR has never led the NFL in either yards, receptions or touchdowns.  

Not shocking.  Same reason why allen for mvp will be difficult.  2 December games in Buffalo means lots of running. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Hebert19 said:

Not shocking.  Same reason why allen for mvp will be difficult.  2 December games in Buffalo means lots of running. 

 

I'm not sure that I put cold weather as a factor at all.  Green Bay, New England and Pittsburgh have or have had QB's that throw in very bad weather.  

How many bad weather games has Buffalo had in the last 20 years?  Maybe 5 or 6?

[DCofNC]

8 hours ago, BillsFan619 said:

I guess the tortoise wins the race (not saying Bruce was slow)? That’s completely shocking especially with him being the best at his position.

Reggie White was the star of his era, Bruce, great in his own right, was not the best.

[Big Turk]

38 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Not shocking.  Same reason why allen for mvp will be difficult.  2 December games in Buffalo means lots of running. 

 

Why? Kelly routinely put up 300 yard passing games here in the playoffs.

 

This tired and factually incorrect narrative needs to die a quick painful death.

[BillsFan619]

14 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Reggie White was the star of his era, Bruce, great in his own right, was not the best.

Thanks for sharing. I wasn’t thinking of Reggie white but should’ve been.

 

I still think you can say that, along with Reggie White, Bruce Smith was the best at his position.

[sirebors]

Who is next best 3-4 defensive end and how many sacks did he have? 

[P Riv]

20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

White was great but the 46 defense for a DE was like being a WR in the run and shoot.........the design produced numbers.......in that case sacks and TFL's........but at the risk of big plays.

 

White also got sack-fat off of a lot of really poor right tackles while Bruce was playing against a lot of stud LT's.    His finest moment as a pro was his 2 sacks against the lowly Max Lane...basically a guard playing out of position......in the Super Bowl.    That was about the equivalent of when Bruce lined up against Everett McIver and Bruce Matthews at LT..........he put up 9 sacks and knocked Boomer Esiason out cold over those two games.  

 

When Reggie had to go up against Erik Williams of the Cowboys........the only real top-LT-quality comp at RT........he was obliterated...........he put up a no tackle, no sack game against him in the playoffs..........so he would have had his hands full against the league's better LT's like Richmond Webb and Bruce Armstrong in the AFC East.

 

That's not to say White wasn't one of the best ever..........but the reality is that he also had every advantage a DE could ever ask for..........his circumstances permitted him to max out his production.

   

Bruce played in a "read and react" 34 defense.    He rushed the passer a fair share but that defense just wasn't designed to wreak havoc at the expense of the back end.   When he finally got to play in a 4-3,  he was already very old and washed up, but he immediately put up a 10 sack season.   And while with Washington he was basically the only guy in the league who was giving Orlando Pace and Walter Jones fits in pass pro. 

 

Bruce is the all time sack leader but he was also the best,  full sized defensive lineman pass rusher ever.    There have been a lot of great pass rushers in the past 20 years but they haven't made one quite like him and his rare combination of size, speed, quickness, technique, power, long arms and that ground hugging bend since.   

 

 

This is just plain bad history... White played against the SB Champion 86 Giants, 87 Redskins, 90 Giants twice a year.  Those O-lines were elite, so I'm not sure what your smokin here... 

That and if the defensive alignment White played in was so great for pass rushers, name another player that posted stats like White.  Perhaps you could explain why White's sacks per game AND tackles per game were both higher than Smith's? (complete player???)  Seems White was more productive across the board.  Maybe you think the SB champion factory NFC East of the mid 80's to early 90's had lesser talent than the laughable AFC Least during that period?  

Bear in mind that the Bills usually played with a lead, forcing the opponent into obvious passing situations.  The Eagles were always behind or in a dog fight against running teams with big O-lines, yet White still produced huge numbers of sacks.  Look up the Eagles seasons, scores, etc. if you're still a skeptic.

Edited November 13, 2020 by P Riv

[Mikie2times]

JJ Watt, prior to injury, averaged 17.25 sacks per year as a 3-4 DE. White in the 46 lined up as a DT, not a DE.

 

Bruce averaged .7490 sacks per start during his career and White averaged .8684. Yes, I think a 4-3 DE has a higher likelihood to generate sacks, but I think it's lazy to site that as a main reason to say Bruce was better, which in my opinion, he wasn't. White was a 3-4 DE in it's truest form. He just wasn't played that way. He was played as a DT for Christ sake. His power was better than Smith's speed and his run stopping was also superior. 

 

If Watt didn't deal with the injuries he had, he very well could be in this conversation as well.   

Edited November 13, 2020 by KzooMike

[Big Turk]

21 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

half my high school team was cycling roids and they’re were no superstars.  I’d assume more nfl players did than didnt. 

 

Steroids don't magically take below average athletes and turn them into superstars.  They basically raise you up one level or so...so a good athlete can become great. Or a fringe starter can become a regular starter.  They are not going to take a 3rd string QB and make him into Joe Montana.  Just not how that works.  You still have to have athletic talent and ability.

1 hour ago, KzooMike said:

JJ Watt, prior to injury, averaged 17.25 sacks per year as a 3-4 DE. White in the 46 lined up as a DT, not a DE.

 

Bruce averaged .7490 sacks per start during his career and White averaged .8684. Yes, I think a 4-3 DE has a higher likelihood to generate sacks, but I think it's lazy to site that as a main reason to say Bruce was better, which in my opinion, he wasn't. White was a 3-4 DE in it's truest form. He just wasn't played that way. He was played as a DT for Christ sake. His power was better than Smith's speed and his run stopping was also superior. 

 

If Watt didn't deal with the injuries he had, he very well could be in this conversation as well.   

 

Uhh...Bruce played in a 3-4 defensive scheme with the Bills until he went to the Redskins where he played in a 4-3.

2 hours ago, P Riv said:

 

This is just plain bad history... White played against the SB Champion 86 Giants, 87 Redskins, 90 Giants twice a year.  Those O-lines were elite, so I'm not sure what your smokin here... 

That and if the defensive alignment White played in was so great for pass rushers, name another player that posted stats like White.  Perhaps you could explain why White's sacks per game AND tackles per game were both higher than Smith's? (complete player???)  Seems White was more productive across the board.  Maybe you think the SB champion factory NFC East of the mid 80's to early 90's had lesser talent than the laughable AFC Least during that period?  

Bear in mind that the Bills usually played with a lead, forcing the opponent into obvious passing situations.  The Eagles were always behind or in a dog fight against running teams with big O-lines, yet White still produced huge numbers of sacks.  Look up the Eagles seasons, scores, etc. if you're still a skeptic.

 

The OLines were good but in that era there was a HUGE and I mean HUGE dropoff between Left and Right tackles in pass blocking ability.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

Steroids don't magically take below average athletes and turn them into superstars.  They basically raise you up one level or so...so a good athlete can become great. Or a fringe starter can become a regular starter.  They are not going to take a 3rd string QB and make him into Joe Montana.  Just not how that works.  You still have to have athletic talent and ability.

 

 

what’s your point? Because you missed mine.

 

You don’t think a significant number of the highest level didn’t further level up with roids when so many around them did ?   

 

thats dumb... like saying rich poeple don’t try to get richer. 
 

These guys bite and claw for every edge they can get.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, P Riv said:

 

This is just plain bad history... White played against the SB Champion 86 Giants, 87 Redskins, 90 Giants twice a year.  Those O-lines were elite, so I'm not sure what your smokin here... 

That and if the defensive alignment White played in was so great for pass rushers, name another player that posted stats like White.  Perhaps you could explain why White's sacks per game AND tackles per game were both higher than Smith's? (complete player???)  Seems White was more productive across the board.  Maybe you think the SB champion factory NFC East of the mid 80's to early 90's had lesser talent than the laughable AFC Least during that period?  

Bear in mind that the Bills usually played with a lead, forcing the opponent into obvious passing situations.  The Eagles were always behind or in a dog fight against running teams with big O-lines, yet White still produced huge numbers of sacks.  Look up the Eagles seasons, scores, etc. if you're still a skeptic.

 

 

1) The right tackles on all of those 3, difficulty defining teams you mentioned..........none of them even made a single pro bowl at RT in their entire careers........how do they compare to Bruce Armstrong and Richmond Webb and Tony Boselli and Mark Tuinei and and Jumbo Elliott?    

 

2) Clyde Simmons played opposite of Reggie White at RDE in Philly........he faced the left tackles on those teams......studs like Jumbo Elliott and Joe Jacoby........and he put up 55 sacks and an un-*****-believable 455 tackles in a 4 season stretch from 1989-1992.    That defensive front just ran to the ball.  There is a reason why he has more career sacks than JJ Watt will likely ever get but JJ is a first ballot HOF'er TODAY..........and Clyde is still waiting for a call.    It isn't the lack of a dominant stretch or All Pro accolades.  It's because everyone knows his numbers were inflated.

 

3)The Bills played with leads.........they also rested players with leads.   It was the club Marv way and probably bought Bruce some extra years at the expense of a bunch of cheap sacks in the second half of blowouts.    And having the better team doesn't begin to offset the statistical scheme advantage of White playing his entire career in a 4-3,  the 46 in particular, and on lines where he wasn't the only player who could dominate games.    With all due respect to Phil Hansen and Jeff Wright and Leon Seals......Bruce was the only elite pass rusher on the Bills defensive line.   And White's teams were mostly good so don't give me a line of sh*t about him not getting chances to rush the passer with leads he played in 2 Super Bowls himself.   

 

 

[P Riv]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) The right tackles on all of those 3, difficulty defining teams you mentioned..........none of them even made a single pro bowl at RT in their entire careers........how do they compare to Bruce Armstrong and Richmond Webb and Tony Boselli and Mark Tuinei and and Jumbo Elliott?    

 

2) Clyde Simmons played opposite of Reggie White at RDE in Philly........he faced the left tackles on those teams......studs like Jumbo Elliott and Joe Jacoby........and he put up 55 sacks and an un-*****-believable 455 tackles in a 4 season stretch from 1989-1992.    That defensive front just ran to the ball.  There is a reason why he has more career sacks than JJ Watt will likely ever get but JJ is a first ballot HOF'er TODAY..........and Clyde is still waiting for a call.    It isn't the lack of a dominant stretch or All Pro accolades.  It's because everyone knows his numbers were inflated.

 

3)The Bills played with leads.........they also rested players with leads.   It was the club Marv way and probably bought Bruce some extra years at the expense of a bunch of cheap sacks in the second half of blowouts.    And having the better team doesn't begin to offset the statistical scheme advantage of White playing his entire career in a 4-3,  the 46 in particular, and on lines where he wasn't the only player who could dominate games.    With all due respect to Phil Hansen and Jeff Wright and Leon Seals......Bruce was the only elite pass rusher on the Bills defensive line.   And White's teams were mostly good so don't give me a line of sh*t about him not getting chances to rush the passer with leads he played in 2 Super Bowls himself.   

 

 

 

1)  Jackie Slater got the Pro-bowl nod at RT every year during that period, so saying just because those teams I mentioned didn't have a pro-bowl RT is a non-starter.  Every one of them was a top tier running team.  All of them.  What did NE have?  Miami running game during the Marino era??? lol  The Jets?  Indy had Dickerson for a hot minute, but no QB to help him.  

 

2) Reggie got doubled or Jerome Brown, not Clyde Simmons.  Also makes sense to run at Simmons, not White...no?  

 

3)  Looking at Smith's 90 season, all of his sacks came against inferior opponents.  He got shut out against Miami, the NY Giants among others.  He feasted on the Jets, Colts, etc.  As far as resting and missing pass rushing opportunities, sounds like BS to me.  I watched those games, that might happen very late (plausible but not fact), but not very often and definitely not enough to have an impact on his stats.  He had 19 sacks that year, 10 came from games against the 6-10 Jets, 7-9 Colts and 1-15 Patriots.  Against the Pats it was common for them to move him across the line away from Armstrong also.  I think Smith registered about 5 of his 200 sacks against Armstrong and they didn't exactly have Brady back there...lol

 

Not drinking the Bruce Kool Aid, nope....  He was awesome, but he's still a dominant number 2 and Reggie White is number 1.  Stats prove it, strength of schedule/opponents backs that.

Edited November 14, 2020 by P Riv