New resolution that rewards teams who "develop" minority coaches

[BillsShredder83]

holy smokes, a productive racial discussion!  i enjoyed that, and learned some things. best message board on the internet

[RyanC883]

On 11/11/2020 at 2:54 PM, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

So I am entirely supportive of the initiative, and its unfortunate but sometimes you do need to give people a little push to do the right thing and force the issue.  More black people should be in NFL HC and GM positions right now, period.  With that said, your point #2 is incredibly valid and may actually deter/frustrate the purpose.  Would like to see the actual language of the rules, but it appears they really did not think this through. Maybe they should reward both the hiring and "developing" team, each get one 3rd round? 

 

why don’t they just mandate you hire a minority?  you have zero proof for the proposition that “more black people should be HC or GM’s”. hire on merit. the NFL is not systemically excluding anyone. 

[RyanC883]

On 11/11/2020 at 4:25 PM, Utah John said:

The biggest thing holding back the development of minority coaches is that they can't get on the path early in their careers.  There has been a longstanding resistance to have black QB coaches, coaching a white QB.  Sorry for saying that, but it's been true.  QB coaches are usually the guys who move up to offensive coordinators and then HCs. 

 

You might think that with more black QBs in the league, that this problem would sort itself out.  Well, it's not working.  The NFL is trying to get things changed through the most valuable commodity they have: draft picks.

 

There is an unavoidable political consideration driving this, but you can also look at it as basic fairness.  The proportion of black HCs in far below the proportion of black players. 

 

where is the evidence that “there has been resistance to having a black qb coach a white qb?”

 

the fact that black coaches are below black players as a proportion proves nothing. are black players  trying to coach at the same percentage as non-black players?  If you want to talk about proportions, what about the fact that the proportion of black players is way overrepresentative of the population?  Meanwhile, very few hispanics and asians. 

[GaryPinC]

20 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's a great question: could there be a "blind audition" for coaching assistants?

 

I have some ideas, actually.  But truly, I think you need to start closer to the grass roots.  As I understand it, while they're very different fields, one problem is that coaching assistants often come from the ranks of very smart college players who just don't have the physical skills to make it in the pros.  

 

So they follow the path Sean McDermott took - they become a "graduate assistant" at the college ranks, which pays little to nothing.  Then they may become a low-level coaching or scouting assistant in the pros, which again, pays little to nothing.  Then they work their way up the ranks.  To survive, a lot of these guys are probably getting some "extramural financial aid", maybe not in the form of the family paying them but helping them out with gifts of a functional car, a phone, maybe health insurance or medical bills - or in the form of an employed spouse.  Strangely enough, there's a similar problem in academic science where graduate students pursuing PhDs work for 4-8 years on minimal stipends, and that's something talented minorities without family support just can't afford to do vs. pursuing a real job with real medical insurance and enough $$ to buy a car.  Science, football, shared problems, Go Figure.

 

It seems to me that one precursor to increase the pool of qualified minority candidates for coordinator positions, is to start fellowships for minority graduate assistants and low level coaching and scouting assistants, to help give them a foot in the door and provide them with mentorship. The mentorship would be key, because it helps build that shared experience and shared interests.  Then where they take that "foot" is up to their own legs.

I don't like most "affirmative action" initiatives, not because I don't see the need but because I regard them as too little, too late and not addressing the fundamental underlying problems.

Great stuff and contributions on this, thanks!  One point you hit on I really like is discussing the non-racial unconscious bias.  IMO, this is not emphasized enough as a segue to then discuss racial-based bias.  Certainly the diversity trainers I have had focus on white/black racial bias which immediately polarizes the listeners.  Humorous irony while they preach inclusion.

 

WRT NFL minority coaching development, definitely agree some kind of fellowship and/or minority scholarship program would be best if the NFL is serious about this. It seems any future NFL coach had to start at the bottom for little to no money and work their way up.  Part of this I see as being akin to med school rotations and residency hours where they're testing your passion and commitment along with your ability.  NFL should reach out to minorities/minority college programs and educate candidates what's expected of them.  The "unwritten" rules.  Mentors is a great idea also.

[vtnatefootball11]

19 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

why don’t they just mandate you hire a minority?  you have zero proof for the proposition that “more black people should be HC or GM’s”. hire on merit. the NFL is not systemically excluding anyone. 

 

First of all, you don't "prove" propositions.  And it wasn't a proposition/suggestion anyway, it was clearly my opinion.  Why do I feel more GMs, and particularly coaches, should be black?  It's simple, and a matter of common sense.  Close to 70% of the NFL player population is black, yet less than 10% of coaches are black.  When you have that few black coaches, it's less likely a black coach will be in the stepping stone position to be head coach.  You don't have to play professionally to be qualified for HC, sure, but it's a pretty damn important qualification.  The numbers don't add up. There are of course several other societal factors outside the bounds of NFL/football that may explain why less black men want to become coaches etc. and help explain the massive disparity, but even still, the numbers shouldn't be THAT far off.  

 

Now can I prove the reason more black coaches aren't hired is because they are black? Of course not! It's impossible to prove a negative.  For example, RyanC883,  can you prove you didn't murder or have someone arranged to be murdered last night?  (I'm sure you didn't btw) but it would be impossible for you to PROVE that.  Doesn't make it any less true.  I don't think the NFL or people hiring are systematically excluding anyone, our even consciously racist, it's a matter of implicit bias, perceived notions, less of a pool, etc.  That's why a little nudge to develop these black coaches at the lower levels can't hurt and hopefully provide a greater pool of black candidates.  Mandating the hire of a minority as you suggested is idiotic and completely misses the boat on the initiative and what I said in my post (which was actually critical of the new rule).  Giving two 3rd rounders to only the developing team is silly and will deter hiring (on merit!) of minority candidates from divisions or even amongst good teams.  It will also be exploited without question.  But your post misses the boat entirely, and adds nothing worthy to the conversation.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by vtnatefootball11

[unbillievable]

16 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

 It's simple, and a matter of common sense.  Close to 70% of the NFL player population is black, yet less than 10% of coaches are black.  

 

This statement proves nothing.  It can also be used to prove the opposite.

White players get cut early in their careers, so they become coaches to stay in the game. That is also common sense.

With the exception of head coaches, coordinators are often the same age as their players.

 

 

 

[vtnatefootball11]

1 hour ago, unbillievable said:

This statement proves nothing.  It can also be used to prove the opposite.

White players get cut early in their careers, so they become coaches to stay in the game. That is also common sense.

With the exception of head coaches, coordinators are often the same age as their players.

 

 

It was never meant to PROVE anything!  You clearly didn't read the entire bottom paragraph of the post which discussed this exact point, which is the impossibility of proving a negative.  It doesn't mean there is structural racism, but it also doesn't prove there isn't some unconscious bias.  Players of all race get cut early in their careers... 

Edited November 13, 2020 by vtnatefootball11

[RyanC883]

On 11/13/2020 at 2:59 PM, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

First of all, you don't "prove" propositions.  And it wasn't a proposition/suggestion anyway, it was clearly my opinion.  Why do I feel more GMs, and particularly coaches, should be black?  It's simple, and a matter of common sense.  Close to 70% of the NFL player population is black, yet less than 10% of coaches are black.  When you have that few black coaches, it's less likely a black coach will be in the stepping stone position to be head coach.  You don't have to play professionally to be qualified for HC, sure, but it's a pretty damn important qualification.  The numbers don't add up. There are of course several other societal factors outside the bounds of NFL/football that may explain why less black men want to become coaches etc. and help explain the massive disparity, but even still, the numbers shouldn't be THAT far off.  

 

Now can I prove the reason more black coaches aren't hired is because they are black? Of course not! It's impossible to prove a negative.  For example, RyanC883,  can you prove you didn't murder or have someone arranged to be murdered last night?  (I'm sure you didn't btw) but it would be impossible for you to PROVE that.  Doesn't make it any less true.  I don't think the NFL or people hiring are systematically excluding anyone, our even consciously racist, it's a matter of implicit bias, perceived notions, less of a pool, etc.  That's why a little nudge to develop these black coaches at the lower levels can't hurt and hopefully provide a greater pool of black candidates.  Mandating the hire of a minority as you suggested is idiotic and completely misses the boat on the initiative and what I said in my post (which was actually critical of the new rule).  Giving two 3rd rounders to only the developing team is silly and will deter hiring (on merit!) of minority candidates from divisions or even amongst good teams.  It will also be exploited without question.  But your post misses the boat entirely, and adds nothing worthy to the conversation.

 

 

 

 

your response is a bunch of “woke” guesses.  

 

we all want everyone to have an equal opportunity, but giving 2 3rd rounders to a team for developing a minority coach, and, 

as you suggest, giving picks to a team for hiring a coach is a recipe for explicit discrimination and totally unnecessary. Who will a team hire as a coordinator under the current plan, a non-minority or a minority with the bonus of 2 3rd rounders if that coach ends up getting hired?  And under your plan, a team will hire minorities to get picks.  

 

There are already minority coaching clinics, etc for minority coaches. Engaging in discrimination as this plan does in an attempt to solve a problem that does not exist—or as you admit cannot be prove. to exist—is needless, wrong, and likely illegal.  

Edited November 15, 2020 by RyanC883

[RyanC883]

On 11/13/2020 at 10:44 AM, GaryPinC said:

Great stuff and contributions on this, thanks!  One point you hit on I really like is discussing the non-racial unconscious bias.  IMO, this is not emphasized enough as a segue to then discuss racial-based bias.  Certainly the diversity trainers I have had focus on white/black racial bias which immediately polarizes the listeners.  Humorous irony while they preach inclusion.

 

WRT NFL minority coaching development, definitely agree some kind of fellowship and/or minority scholarship program would be best if the NFL is serious about this. It seems any future NFL coach had to start at the bottom for little to no money and work their way up.  Part of this I see as being akin to med school rotations and residency hours where they're testing your passion and commitment along with your ability.  NFL should reach out to minorities/minority college programs and educate candidates what's expected of them.  The "unwritten" rules.  Mentors is a great idea also.

 

some good ideas here.  But this is not just a minority problem (if its really even that).  It’s a problem for any kid (black, white, asian, etc) who comes from a disadvantaged background.  I’d favor these programs for everyone first and foremost (the nfl has the money and what better way to live diversity than having everyone in this program?), and if not everyone, then economic based. 

[StHustle]

Haven't read the comments because after reading the OP I immediately needed to speak my piece. As a black man, I hate this new "resolution" and hope it doesn't last long. It honestly embarrassing and makes me feel like black coaches are being treated like the elderly or disabled working at Walmart who gets benefits from hiring the normally unhireable.

[Process]

14 minutes ago, StHustle said:

Haven't read the comments because after reading the OP I immediately needed to speak my piece. As a black man, I hate this new "resolution" and hope it doesn't last long. It honestly embarrassing and makes me feel like black coaches are being treated like the elderly or disabled working at Walmart who gets benefits from hiring the normally unhireable.

Honest question I'm genuinely curious what you think. Was I fair in my first point or am I completely off?

[StHustle]

12 minutes ago, Process said:

Honest question I'm genuinely curious what you think. Was I fair in my first point or am I completely off?

 

You were COMPLETELY on point with your assessment. Thats why I gave you a Lombardi trophy reaction. I'm assuming you are white and appreciate your honest opinion which I completely agree with. While I'm all for something to be in place to force more qualified minorities to get jobs, it has to make sense and this doesn't. I don't have an answer to how this could be achieved in a way that does make sense nor do I have faith anyone else can come up with anything so I would rather have nothing in place and allow time to take care of it.

[Process]

9 minutes ago, StHustle said:

 

You were COMPLETELY on point with your assessment. Thats why I gave you a Lombardi trophy reaction. I'm assuming you are white and appreciate your honest opinion which I completely agree with. While I'm all for something to be in place to force more qualified minorities to get jobs, it has to make sense and this doesn't. I don't have an answer to how this could be achieved in a way that does make sense nor do I have faith anyone else can come up with anything so I would rather have nothing in place and allow time to take care of it.

You're not alone in not liking it. Hopefully they will scrap this and come up with a different plan. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30320664/sources-nfl-diversity-hiring-plan-draws-mixed-feelings-league