PFF mid season all pro team

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Diggs will likely get a pay rise, sure. But you want the best players you have to pay them. And Diggs is one of the best receivers in the league. Jefferson isn't. I am still sceptical that he will ever be that but we shall see. The Bills did not need another "good" wide receiver. They needed a true difference maker who changed the way every defense game planned to stop our offense. Stefon Diggs has done that.

 

 

I know you were really not that impressed at all with Jefferson and saw him as only a slot receiver going into the draft............I remember because I thought it was a bold take.........so I am not surprised that his explosive season hasn't yet changed that opinion.

 

But wasn't Diggs that guy before his aberrant season last year?  

 

3 years ago he averaged 10 ypc over the course of 100 catches........which from what I can find looks like the lowest ypc ever for a 1,000 yard wide receiver.

 

Yes, lower than the most dink and dunkest 1,000 yard seasons of Welker or Edelman.

 

So while I do strongly agree that a slot receiver type shouldn't be considered among the league's best "wide receivers".............I think the lack of high per play production is actually a knock on Diggs career as well.    

 

This will only be his 3rd 1,000 yard season in 6 because he's not been a lid lifter on the outside.    

 

The bar is much higher than that for the best WR's in the NFL.

[TheElectricCompany]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Diggs will likely get a pay rise, sure. But you want the best players you have to pay them. And Diggs is one of the best receivers in the league. Jefferson isn't. I am still sceptical that he will ever be that but we shall see. ]

 

Diggs is a difference maker, and I'm really glad he's here, but there's no need to throw a cap on Jefferson's potential. Jeudy, Lamb and Jefferson all look like stars in the making. 

 

I get why they went after Diggs . COVID offseason meant minimal practice time, and they valued a proven commodity in a critical time in Josh's development. It has worked out so far 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Diggs is the best WR the Bills have ever had. Reed did it over a longer period of time, from the slot with a hall of fame QB. I know it’s 9 games and I know it’s not going to be something people agree with....but Diggs is going to end up being the best WR the Bills have ever had.

[BADOLBILZ]

44 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Diggs is the best WR the Bills have ever had. Reed did it over a longer period of time, from the slot with a hall of fame QB. I know it’s 9 games and I know it’s not going to be something people agree with....but Diggs is going to end up being the best WR the Bills have ever had.

 

 

They won't agree because Reed was widely regarded as one of the 3 best receivers in the entire NFL for 7 seasons from 1988-1994........and his chief competition was the GOAT.

 

Diggs absolutely does not stack up like that against his peers.............he hasn't even gotten them to throw him a pro bowl nod yet........meanwhile his former running mate Thielen has two.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We disagree here.  I think the Bills got exactly what they needed right now to assist Allen's development and the development in the WR room, and in that regard, it at least has the potential to be franchise altering. 

 

And while I'm sure there would be some who thought it was a great deal, I don't think most in Minn have forgotten Diggs or decided it was a great deal quite yet, even though Jefferson is developing as an excellent player.

 

1) You are disagreeing with something I didn't say.  Franchise altering moves to me are the kind of things that get stadiums built.   That begins and ends with the QB.   I could turn around and say "we disagree because I think Josh Allen was going to be good this year with or without Diggs" but that might be like a straw man argument or something. 

 

2) They have bigger concerns........but regardless of how the fans *feel*....... lost WR production is not one of them..........Jefferson is on pace to exceed the production of Diggs best season(last year).  

[4merper4mer]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They won't agree because Reed was widely regarded as one of the 3 best receivers in the entire NFL for 7 seasons from 1988-1994........and his chief competition was the GOAT.

 

Diggs absolutely does not stack up like that against his peers.............he hasn't even gotten them to throw him a pro bowl nod yet........meanwhile his former running mate Thielen has two.

 

Whatever on pro bowl nods.  He is far better than Thielen.  That's a joke.  Agreed on Reed and Moulds was tremendous too.  Let's hope we can argue about this in three years because it will mean a lot of good things have happened.  I absolutely love Diggs so far.  I knew he was good...but he's actually great and far tougher than I thought.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Whatever on pro bowl nods.  He is far better than Thielen.  That's a joke.  Agreed on Reed and Moulds was tremendous too.  Let's hope we can argue about this in three years because it will mean a lot of good things have happened.  I absolutely love Diggs so far.  I knew he was good...but he's actually great and far tougher than I thought.

 

He has always been better than Thielen IMO. And I went back and watched some Vikings all22 after the trade (it was from 2018 admittedly because Thielen didn't play much last year) and as I always say if you want to see who the NFL thinks is better the way they defend them tells you. The majority of teams playing the Vikings set out to stop Diggs. He was the guy doubled, he was the guy they shaded safety help to and he was more often than not (though not always) the guy who attracted the top corners. Thielen is good. He himself is a top 15 receiver. But Diggs was always the star of that show regardless what pro bowl voting indicated.

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I know you were really not that impressed at all with Jefferson and saw him as only a slot receiver going into the draft............I remember because I thought it was a bold take.........so I am not surprised that his explosive season hasn't yet changed that opinion.

 

But wasn't Diggs that guy before his aberrant season last year?  

 

3 years ago he averaged 10 ypc over the course of 100 catches........which from what I can find looks like the lowest ypc ever for a 1,000 yard wide receiver.

 

Yes, lower than the most dink and dunkest 1,000 yard seasons of Welker or Edelman.

 

So while I do strongly agree that a slot receiver type shouldn't be considered among the league's best "wide receivers".............I think the lack of high per play production is actually a knock on Diggs career as well.    

 

This will only be his 3rd 1,000 yard season in 6 because he's not been a lid lifter on the outside.    

 

The bar is much higher than that for the best WR's in the NFL.

 

It is fair to say that I think his production hasn't completely matched his talent thus far in his career. It is part of why it was a great trade. There was and still is a chip on Diggs's shoulder. This wasn't trading for a guy whose reputation is totally made and might come in and half ass it.

[JerseyBills]

21 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

I know I know it't PFF but a there is a Buffalo Bill on this list and it's probably a person that has been overlooked this year.  Nope not Allen, Diggs or Poyer its Daryl Williams.  Great off season signing by the Bills has really been playing outstanding this year.  I really think Diggs has been overlooked some and should of been named to at least the second team as well but there are a lot of great receivers just odd to see the rookie Jefferson(who the vikings drafted to replace Diggs) on the second team.

 

Still a good read and I do put much more weight on their line grades than some of the others. 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-2020-midseason-all-pro-team

 

I literally have zero desire to read their grading system.  I used to read PFF frequently,  I still appreciate their advanced stats , but I just can't deal with their grades.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They won't agree because Reed was widely regarded as one of the 3 best receivers in the entire NFL for 7 seasons from 1988-1994........and his chief competition was the GOAT.

 

Diggs absolutely does not stack up like that against his peers.............he hasn't even gotten them to throw him a pro bowl nod yet........meanwhile his former running mate Thielen has two.

 

He’s leading the league in every category right now. If you don’t consider him a top 3 in the nfl this year, it’s on you.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

He’s leading the league in every category right now. If you don’t consider him a top 3 in the nfl this year, it’s on you.

 

Diggs is currently leading the league in receptions and yards.........that's not "every category"........TD's, ypc, yards per game, catch %, drops........there are many more where he ranks lower or far lower.

 

Because the Bills haven't had their bye yet Diggs has played more games than guys like DeAndre Hopkins and DK Metcalf who closely trail him in those categories but have higher per game production..........so while Diggs is having a great year he's not on pace to lead the league in those statistics.

 

And keep in mind in Stefon Diggs previous best season(last year) he ranked 43rd in the NFL in receptions and 17th in yardage..........so nowhere near the top of the league.   Not even remotely close.

 

So what I am saying is if he is going to reach Reed's level.........and then exceed it relative to his peers.........then he is starting pretty late because he's never been as highly regarded as Reed was in his 7 year prime.

 

There were a few seasons where it was pretty much between Reed and Rice as the two best in the NFL.    Perhaps your memory fails you or you just don't know but Andre Reed was a legit great.    

 

Diggs has been a very good WR but if he is starting an 8 year run to exceed Reeds.........that will be an astonishing.

 

That's your expectation........you are entitled to believe that.........but I think a lot of that is your lack of perspective on their two careers to this point.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Thielen is good. He himself is a top 15 receiver. But Diggs was always the star of that show regardless what pro bowl voting indicated.

 

It is fair to say that I think his production hasn't completely matched his talent thus far in his career. It is part of why it was a great trade. There was and still is a chip on Diggs's shoulder. This wasn't trading for a guy whose reputation is totally made and might come in and half ass it.

 

Not top 15.

 

Thielen is more like a top 30 WR.........he's in the mid 20's in receptions and yardage and around 50th in ypc.

 

I think the goal posts wrt Diggs production shortfalls in Minnesota are on roller skates............it's either Cousins can't throw the deep ball to him or Cousins just throws the deep ball to him or Thielen gets the benefit of Diggs coverage yet when he leaves a rookie literally replicates his best production and out produces Thielen.............I think the reality is that Diggs was enigmatic in Minnesota.   

 

Love him,  excellent player but I think if he gets $20M per we will always be left wanting him to be more like Julio Jones when he's much closer to Jarvis Landry on the performance spectrum.

 

 

[Doc]

14 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Whatever on pro bowl nods.  He is far better than Thielen.  That's a joke.  Agreed on Reed and Moulds was tremendous too.  Let's hope we can argue about this in three years because it will mean a lot of good things have happened.  I absolutely love Diggs so far.  I knew he was good...but he's actually great and far tougher than I thought.

 

Yup.  Thielen won't sniff another Pro Bowl.  Diggs will make several still.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Not top 15.

 

Thielen is more like a top 30 WR.........he's in the mid 20's in receptions and yardage and around 50th in ypc.

 

I think the goal posts wrt Diggs production shortfalls in Minnesota are on roller skates............it's either Cousins can't throw the deep ball to him or Cousins just throws the deep ball to him or Thielen gets the benefit of Diggs coverage yet when he leaves a rookie literally replicates his best production and out produces Thielen.............I think the reality is that Diggs was enigmatic in Minnesota.   

 

Love him,  excellent player but I think if he gets $20M per we will always be left wanting him to be more like Julio Jones when he's much closer to Jarvis Landry on the performance spectrum.

 

 

 

I didn't say his production was because of the way teams defended him. I did not make that argument. His production is to the largest extent on him being enigmatic and inconsistent. That was always my take on the Vikings receivers. Diggs is more talented, Thielen is more consistent. But the way teams defended him is a fact. 

 

But I disagree he is closer to Landry than Jones. I disagree a lot. Landry is a more consistent but less talented player. Might we pay Diggs $20m and then see the inconsistency return? It is certainly possible. Might the extra responsibility of being the undisputed top dog in Buffalo focus the mind and lead to more consistency than in Minnesota? Also possible. Personally I would be more than willing to take that chance because guys with Stefon Diggs level of talent don't come around every day even in this era of stacked receiver drafts. 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Yup.  Thielen won't sniff another Pro Bowl.  Diggs will make several still his first pro bowl this year.

 

Possibly wrt Thielen but missing the playoffs entirely in a covid year may increase the chance that a guy like Thielen ends up as a 5th alternate.........and fixed the other part for you.

 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Possibly wrt Thielen but missing the playoffs entirely in a covid year may increase the chance that a guy like Thielen ends up as a 5th alternate.........and fixed the other part for you.

 

Maybe if Thielen were the 20th alternate...

 

And you just basically added what was already implied.

[Lothar]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Diggs is currently leading the league in receptions and yards.........that's not "every category"........TD's, ypc, yards per game, catch %, drops........there are many more where he ranks lower or far lower.

 

Because the Bills haven't had their bye yet Diggs has played more games than guys like DeAndre Hopkins and DK Metcalf who closely trail him in those categories but have higher per game production..........so while Diggs is having a great year he's not on pace to lead the league in those statistics.

 

And keep in mind in Stefon Diggs previous best season(last year) he ranked 43rd in the NFL in receptions and 17th in yardage..........so nowhere near the top of the league.   Not even remotely close.

 

So what I am saying is if he is going to reach Reed's level.........and then exceed it relative to his peers.........then he is starting pretty late because he's never been as highly regarded as Reed was in his 7 year prime.

 

There were a few seasons where it was pretty much between Reed and Rice as the two best in the NFL.    Perhaps your memory fails you or you just don't know but Andre Reed was a legit great.    

 

Diggs has been a very good WR but if he is starting an 8 year run to exceed Reeds.........that will be an astonishing.

 

That's your expectation........you are entitled to believe that.........but I think a lot of that is your lack of perspective on their two careers to this point.

 

 

As great as he was, I'm not sure there was ever a year when Andre was considered 2nd best in the NFL. He was usually in the top 5 or 6. Even the two years he made All-Pro, I believe Rice and Sterling Shape were considered the starters. I truly believe that Moulds was the best receiver the bills had. If he had a good qb, his ceiling was definitely Hall of Fame caliber. Diggs is in the conversation for #3 already and given his qb, maybe more.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Lothar

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I didn't say his production was because of the way teams defended him. I did not make that argument. His production is to the largest extent on him being enigmatic and inconsistent. That was always my take on the Vikings receivers. Diggs is more talented, Thielen is more consistent. But the way teams defended him is a fact. 

 

But I disagree he is closer to Landry than Jones. I disagree a lot. Landry is a more consistent but less talented player. Might we pay Diggs $20m and then see the inconsistency return? It is certainly possible. Might the extra responsibility of being the undisputed top dog in Buffalo focus the mind and lead to more consistency than in Minnesota? Also possible. Personally I would be more than willing to take that chance because guys with Stefon Diggs level of talent don't come around every day even in this era of stacked receiver drafts. 

 

 

To be clear I wasn't saying you were moving the goal posts.......everyone just has a different theory and none of them holds up to scrutiny..........ultimately, as I said and you apparently agree with, dead center of the field is him just being an enigma over anything else.

 

Me saying he's closer to Landry than Julio on the performance spectrum is just based on their production.   I don't think that much of Landry......low ypc is a big knock in my book. And I think Landry gets mostly ignored for honors because of it so I don't think I'm alone in that regard.  

 

Diggs is decidedly better than Landy IMO but has also not been a particularly explosive player over his career......his ypc is much closer to that of Landry than Julio and much of what he does best is the same kind of work that Landry excels at.  

 

I am inclined to pay Diggs too.......they aren't easy to find........but at the same time he's definitely not the peak AB/Hopkins/AJ Green/Julio type of #1 but he will get paid like that and he will need more help in the WR corps than guys like that. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I am inclined to pay Diggs too.......they aren't easy to find........but at the same time he's definitely not the peak AB/Hopkins/AJ Green/Julio type of #1 but he will get paid like that and he will need more help in the WR corps than guys like that. 

 

He isn't because he doesn't have the consistent production that puts you in that conversation. I don't think he is very far off talent wise. The question that the Bills will have to answer with Diggs at some point either this summer or next (I do think with the reduced cap you will see a lot of agents advise their players to hang fire a year and see what happens) is whether the 9 games we have seen are the "new norm" for Stefon Diggs or if they are a peak to be followed by a regression to his previous production. I am a big fan of his and have been since long before he was a Bill, I am pretty optimistic he will continue to perform like a star.

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, Lothar said:

As great as he was, I'm not sure there was ever a year when Andre was considered 2nd best in the NFL. He was usually in the top 5 or 6. Even the two years he made All-Pro, I believe Rice and Sterling Shape were considered the starters. I truly believe that Moulds was the best receiver the bills had. If he had a good qb, his ceiling was definitely Hall of Fame caliber. Diggs is in the conversation for #3 already and given his qb, maybe more.

 

 

Rice, Reed and Sharpe were the 3 guys over that stretch.    He played on the top rushing team in the NFL over that stretch so he got A LOT less targets than Sharpe but he was held in high regard for not only his numbers but his toughness and blocking.   It wasn't a year to year thing........he was ALWAYS in the conversation during that run.

 

This is all new for Diggs in year 6.

 

As for Moulds.......in 1998 he was the best receiver for one season that the Bills have ever had.    He was unreal.

 

But he was a knucklehead and just kept stacking on muscle,  especially in his legs, and lost speed and quickness and flexibility and his ypc numbers declined steadily until the point in the mid-90's he just could not get open to save his life.   Everything was contested which exposed his so-so hands and he bitched at refs constantly and spit in opponents faces in frustration and blamed everyone else as he declined until his "I quit" game in Miami. 

 

Could he have put up better numbers with a better QB situation?  Maybe......but he got FED the football more than Reed.

 

 But he wouldn't have been as good as Reed in the Bills K-Gun because he just wasn't as good of a receiver or football player in general.   He sure as hell wasn't getting those 150, 160, 180 targets in the K-Gun like he did in the Rojo/Bledsoe era either.

 

Finally.........Reed's skill and body aged much more gracefully.......at 33 he was still about where Moulds was at physically at 29.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He isn't because he doesn't have the consistent production that puts you in that conversation. I don't think he is very far off talent wise. The question that the Bills will have to answer with Diggs at some point either this summer or next (I do think with the reduced cap you will see a lot of agents advise their players to hang fire a year and see what happens) is whether the 9 games we have seen are the "new norm" for Stefon Diggs or if they are a peak to be followed by a regression to his previous production. I am a big fan of his and have been since long before he was a Bill, I am pretty optimistic he will continue to perform like a star.

 

 

Yeah he should be a top 15 guy for the next 3 seasons either way.........which isn't any terrible knock.........there is a lot of talent out there at WR..........but fans need to accept that the accolades are going to go to the guys who put up big numbers but also catch the pretty long balls and make the great RAC plays all season.