Would the Bills have turned it around under Ralph Wilson’s stewardship?

[Bulldog]

Will some people's bashing of Ralph Wilson never end? Ralph Wilson was a huge philanthropist - he benefited all of Western New York (including the Rochester, and Niagara Falls Areas) through his well documented generosity. Not to mention - without him there would likely never have been a Buffalo Bills football team - and if a team was started by someone else, there would have been a high probability of that owner cashing out with the escalating value of an NFL franchise over the years. Mr. Wilson may not have been the best of NFL owners, but we could have done much worse. We went to four straight Super Bowls while Mr. Wilson was our owner - of course we were capable of success under his ownership.  

Thank you Mr. Wilson - I can't speak for everyone, but I am grateful for the fact that we have had the Bills all these years, largely thanks to you, & am also grateful for your charitable work in our communities. Our communities miss your presence here.   

 

 

[Figster]

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

No, we would still be in the same situation the franchise has been in for the bulk of its existence.

What was so special about McD that suggests R W couldn't have made the same hire?

 

It was another gamble on Buffalo's part hiring a coach with zero head coaching experience IMO.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful for the Pegula's.

 

I'm just not less thankful for R W...

[The Jokeman]

14 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

Will some people's bashing of Ralph Wilson never end? Ralph Wilson was a huge philanthropist - he benefited all of Western New York (including the Rochester, and Niagara Falls Areas) through his well documented generosity. Not to mention - without him there would likely never have been a Buffalo Bills football team - and if a team was started by someone else, there would have been a high probability of that owner cashing out with the escalating value of an NFL franchise over the years. Mr. Wilson may not have been the best of NFL owners, but we could have done much worse. We went to four straight Super Bowls while Mr. Wilson was our owner - of course we were capable of success under his ownership.  

Thank you Mr. Wilson - I can't speak for everyone, but I am grateful for the fact that we have had the Bills all these years, largely thanks to you, & am also grateful for your charitable work in our communities. Our communities miss your presence here.   

 

 

Ralph might have been a good person but he was a horrible football owner. 

[Figster]

3 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Ralph might have been a good person but he was a horrible football owner. 

For building a dynasty that carried the smaller market city of Buffalo to 4 straight Superbowls?

 

Awww come on man...

[Mark Vader]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Honestly if Ralph were still running things, someone like Jim Caldwell or Alex Van Pelt would be our HC.

 

3 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

In Ralph's defense he did make a big time in 78 by getting Chuck Knox to come here from the Rams. I can't argue your point though as Ralph did make a lot of cheap hires.

Didn't Ralph have Mike Shanahan all but ready to join the team as head coach sometime in the mid 2000's?

 

It just fell through because Mrs. Shanahan said "We are NOT, moving to Buffalo!"

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

14 hours ago, clayboy54 said:

Are you serious? Ralph was a great supporter of WNY, but he was cheap as hell. No way would McDermott or any other top prospect be coaching this team under Wilson. Plus, he meddled in football ops. So, whoever he hired on the cheap didn’t put up with it for long.

 

14 hours ago, BillsVet said:

In the final years of Ralph's ownership it became obvious few reputable NFL HC and GM candidates wanted to work in Buffalo.  This was evidenced during the period in late 2009/January 2010 when the Bills were forced to hire 70 year old Buddy Nix for his first NFL GM gig who brought on Chan Gailey.  

 

This after Ralph decided to:

 

Re-sign Dick Jauron to a contract extension in 2008.  He proceeded to then go 2-8 to finish that season and was fired in mid 2009.  

Promote Russ Brandon multiple times, including to GM in 2008.  

Hire octogenarian Marv Levy as GM in 2006.  

Permit Jeff Littmann to, well, remain in the organization for years on end.

 

The Bills would not have attracted a HC and GM like McD and Beane to OBD in a RW owned franchise.  Very little chance of success given the lack of investment into the team as what occurred from around 2006-2014.  

 

While I don't disagree with what you said about RW, both Beane and McD were brand new coaches so unless you have some existing cred on your bio like a Chip Kelly or maybe the guy out in Arizona or even a well established coordinator like Kyle Shannahan or Brian Shottenheimer, without that new coaches don't get huge first contracts here or anywhere else for that matter.  There are rumors of Dabo leaving Clemson for the NFL(doubt he will IMO) , he'd get top $$ if he did.

 

So likely RW could have afforded to sign them and since there's only 32 head coaching jobs in the NFL, they'd probably still have jumped at the chance figuring if I do well and RW then doesn't want to pay me the going rate for a 2nd contract, can easily leave then and get into a a bidding war.

[JohnNord]

5 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Absolutely not.  Russ Brandon took over running the team in 2006 after the firing of Tom Donahoe, and he would still be running the team today if Pegula hadn't purchased the team.  After Pegula's first foray into running the team with the Rex Ryan hiring, he put Brandon back in charge but also gave him control of the Sabres.  The hiring of McDermott and Beane were very similar to many previous Bills hirings:  unproven coaches/GMs hoping to prove themselves.   With his added responsibilities to the Sabres, though, Brandon probably gave Beane more responsibility (but not full GM responsibility) than Buddy Nix or Doug Whaley ever had.

 

Wilson ignored Brandon's sexual harassment of female employees at OBD, but the Pegulas did not.  When he lied to them about harassing a Sabres employee, they fired his arse in the spring of 2018 and didn't hire a replacement to oversee both teams.    That's when Beane gained real GM powers, including the power to set budgets for the coaching staff.  It's no accident that after the 2018 season the Bills fired almost all of the offensive assistants (I think that Daboll might have been the only survivor) and hired much better ones, including an experienced QB coach, Ken Dorsey, to mentor Josh Allen.   Beane also went out and got support for Allen in free agency by signing FAs like John Brown and Cole Beasley.  Since then, Beane signaled that the Bills weren't the doing the same BS they had done under Brandon by re-signing their premier DB Tre White rather than letting him walk away in FA as they had done with Stephon Gilmore in 2017.  He also went out and traded for premier WR Stefon Diggs. 

 

Under Russ Brandon's control, the Bills sacrificed success on the field in order to squeeze out as much profit as possible.  Under Brandon Beane's control, the Bills have prioritized winning football games over profits, and it shows.

 

I’m not sure if the part about Brandon is 100% accurate.  On paper, I think the Bills tried moving Brandon out of football operations around the time Rex was hired in 2015, but he still was rumored to be making decisions.  
 

IMO I don’t think Russ was truly moved out until McDermott took over in 2017 and started gaining some power.  If anything, McDermott seemed to understand where the problems in the organization were.  He got rid of many long-time Bills employees like Scott Berchtold, the training staff (forget their names) and several others.  I also think he used the autonomy with The Pegulas to ensure that Russ didn’t interfere with any football decision.  This is where you stopped seeing Russ Brandon in the draft room.  

45 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

Will some people's bashing of Ralph Wilson never end? Ralph Wilson was a huge philanthropist - he benefited all of Western New York (including the Rochester, and Niagara Falls Areas) through his well documented generosity. Not to mention - without him there would likely never have been a Buffalo Bills football team - and if a team was started by someone else, there would have been a high probability of that owner cashing out with the escalating value of an NFL franchise over the years. Mr. Wilson may not have been the best of NFL owners, but we could have done much worse. We went to four straight Super Bowls while Mr. Wilson was our owner - of course we were capable of success under his ownership.  

Thank you Mr. Wilson - I can't speak for everyone, but I am grateful for the fact that we have had the Bills all these years, largely thanks to you, & am also grateful for your charitable work in our communities. Our communities miss your presence here.   

 

 

He also was inept as a football owner by 2000, and his poor decisions led to a nearly 2 decade long drought.

 

You can recognize his philanthropy and also recognize the very poor product he put on the field for a long time.  

[Don Otreply]

4 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

 

While I don't disagree with what you said about RW, both Beane and McD were brand new coaches so unless you have some existing cred on your bio like a Chip Kelly or maybe the guy out in Arizona or even a well established coordinator like Kyle Shannahan or Brian Shottenheimer, without that new coaches don't get huge first contracts here or anywhere else for that matter.  There are rumors of Dabo leaving Clemson for the NFL(doubt he will IMO) , he'd get top $$ if he did.

 

So likely RW could have afforded to sign them and since there's only 32 head coaching jobs in the NFL, they'd probably still have jumped at the chance figuring if I do well and RW then doesn't want to pay me the going rate for a 2nd contract, can easily leave then and get into a a bidding war.

A bidding war for a former bills HC ? With Ralph as the owner? In what alternate reality are we talking about?  Nuthin but luv 

 

Go Bills!!!

[JohnNord]

25 minutes ago, Figster said:

For building a dynasty that carried the smaller market city of Buffalo to 4 straight Superbowls?

 

Awww come on man...

No for building the playoff drought 

36 minutes ago, Figster said:

What was so special about McD that suggests R W couldn't have made the same hire?

 

It was another gamble on Buffalo's part hiring a coach with zero head coaching experience IMO.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful for the Pegula's.

 

I'm just not less thankful for R W...

Ralph would ever give McDermott the level of control or autonomy that the Pegulas did.  NEVER.  Especially not in the decade of his ownership.    There’s no way he lets McDermott get rid of longtime employees or make major chances to the facilities 
 

The closest he came was Donahoe which was a disaster.  From that moment, Ralph only hired people he knew.  

[Figster]

Just now, JohnNord said:

No for building the playoff drought 

You know what R W's biggest problem was and I can sum it up in nutshell.

 

Russ Brandon...

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

5 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

A bidding war for a former bills HC ? With Ralph as the owner? In what alternate reality are we talking about?  Nuthin but luv 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

I live in the alternative reality that speaks English.  Apparently you have trouble understanding it.

 

What I was saying is unless you're a big name which McD and Beane were NOT, they would not get big contracts or have bidding wars, so likely RW could have afforded to sign them.

 

I then stated:

"if they do well and RW then doesn't want to pay me the going rate for a 2nd contract, can easily leave then and get into a a bidding war."

 

A bidding war with whatever of the other 31 teams wants to then sign them.

[Figster]

8 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

No for building the playoff drought 

Ralph would ever give McDermott the level of control or autonomy that the Pegulas did.  NEVER.  Especially not in the decade of his ownership.    There’s no way he lets McDermott get rid of longtime employees or make major chances to the facilities 
 

The closest he came was Donahoe which was a disaster.  From that moment, Ralph only hired people he knew.  

You can't speak for R W regardless of the caps.

[DrDawkinstein]

44 minutes ago, Figster said:

What was so special about McD that suggests R W couldn't have made the same hire?

 

It was another gamble on Buffalo's part hiring a coach with zero head coaching experience IMO.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful for the Pegula's.

 

I'm just not less thankful for R W...

 

34 minutes ago, Figster said:

For building a dynasty that carried the smaller market city of Buffalo to 4 straight Superbowls?

 

Awww come on man...

 

Ralph wouldnt have used the consulting firm that lead the Pegulas to McD. Looking at his multi-decade track record with coaches, it's safe to say it wouldn't have happened. I also don't think Ralph had the mindset to identify a culture-changer like McD. Ralph wanted the org managed the way he liked it.

 

He had zero part in building that dynasty other than finally finding a GM who could put it together. And then ran that same HoF GM out of town because he insulted Ralph's daughter who shouldnt have been working as a scout in the first place.

 

Look, it doesnt bring me any joy to bash Ralph. That's not what I'm trying to do. But let's be honest and objective: he was not a great owner if you are looking for on-field results.

[Figster]

27 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Ralph wouldnt have used the consulting firm that lead the Pegulas to McD. Looking at his multi-decade track record with coaches, it's safe to say it wouldn't have happened. I also don't think Ralph had the mindset to identify a culture-changer like McD. Ralph wanted the org managed the way he liked it.

 

He had zero part in building that dynasty other than finally finding a GM who could put it together. And then ran that same HoF GM out of town because he insulted Ralph's daughter who shouldnt have been working as a scout in the first place.

 

Look, it doesnt bring me any joy to bash Ralph. That's not what I'm trying to do. But let's be honest and objective: he was not a great owner if you are looking for on-field results.

So how does this change history? 

 

R W gets zero credit for the Bills dynasty?

 

How does an owner get credit?

Edited November 11, 2020 by Figster

[JohnNord]

12 minutes ago, Figster said:

You know what R W's biggest problem was and I can sum it up in nutshell.

 

Russ Brandon...

Perhaps... but he didn’t have to be.  Ralph never should’ve empowered him and could have left him in sales/marketing.  But Russ made Ralph money and he trusted him.  
 

Again, Ralph’s poor decisions led to the drought 

6 minutes ago, Figster said:

You can't speak for R W regardless of the caps.

History and a lot of evidence is on my side

[Figster]

 

14 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Perhaps... but he didn’t have to be.  Ralph never should’ve empowered him and could have left him in sales/marketing.  But Russ made Ralph money and he trusted him.  
 

Again, Ralph’s poor decisions led to the drought 

History and a lot of evidence is on my side

I just explained some of the history that is not on your side.

 

With all due respect to you and the doc...

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Figster

[4_kidd_4]

People tend to forget Ralph paid those 90’s rosters pretty handsomely at the time. 

 

For example, from 1992;

https://www.deseret.com/1992/1/25/18964003/bills-have-already-won-the-salary-bowl-barely

 

“Buffalo's total payroll of $25,641,500 amounted to the fifth highest in the National Football League this season.”

 

Obviously his philosophy never really worked out into the salary cap era, but that said, this is a derpy thread for the sake of being a derp. 

 

So in conclusion; Derp.

 

[Don Otreply]

16 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I live in the alternative reality that speaks English.  Apparently you have trouble understanding it.

 

What I was saying is unless you're a big name which McD and Beane were NOT, they would not get big contracts or have bidding wars, so likely RW could have afforded to sign them.

 

I then stated:

"if they do well and RW then doesn't want to pay me the going rate for a 2nd contract, can easily leave then and get into a a bidding war."

 

A bidding war with whatever of the other 31 teams wants to then sign them.

I got that, and I also got that your scenario, as pleasant as it sounds,  just never happened while Ralph owned the team, so it remains quite unlikely to have chance of occurring, frankly ever..., again nuthin but luv. 😁👍🍺 why so serious...
 

Go Bills!!!

[Bulldog]

26 minutes ago, Figster said:

So how does this change history? 

 

R W gets zero credit for the Bills dynasty?

 

How does an owner get credit?

 

31 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Ralph wouldnt have used the consulting firm that lead the Pegulas to McD. Looking at his multi-decade track record with coaches, it's safe to say it wouldn't have happened. I also don't think Ralph had the mindset to identify a culture-changer like McD. Ralph wanted the org managed the way he liked it.

 

He had zero part in building that dynasty other than finally finding a GM who could put it together. And then ran that same HoF GM out of town because he insulted Ralph's daughter who shouldnt have been working as a scout in the first place.

 

Look, it doesnt bring me any joy to bash Ralph. That's not what I'm trying to do. But let's be honest and objective: he was not a great owner if you are looking for on-field results.

 

So Mr. Wilson just "lucked out" in finding a GM who could put it all together & build those Super Bowl teams - but the Pegula's used all their business acumen to select Beane to be the GM to lead the current turnaround? The Pegula's didn't just get lucky in their hiring - but Mr. Wilson was just like the blind squirrel stumbling over a nut?

 

Now I am not here to bash the Pegula's - just like I earlier noted about Mr. Wilson - I will be ever grateful that they have saved & kept the franchise here in our community - however - have you not seen what their ownership has brought to the Sabre's organization? They are not some magical owners who always push all the right buttons - they made a good hiring decision and now we are reaping the benefits. Much like we enjoyed the benefits of the hire Mr. Wilson made leading to our former glory days.

 

Hopefully they will have a greater percentage of hiring success than Wilson did - and hopefully none of their decision making with the Sabres will rub-off on the football operation.   

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Mark Vader said:

 

Didn't Ralph have Mike Shanahan all but ready to join the team as head coach sometime in the mid 2000's?

 

It just fell through because Mrs. Shanahan said "We are NOT, moving to Buffalo!"

 

I remember that but I think it didn't go that far?  Like maybe just initial conversations?