Would the Bills have turned it around under Ralph Wilson’s stewardship?

[Royale with Cheese]

Honestly if Ralph were still running things, someone like Jim Caldwell or Alex Van Pelt would be our HC.

[Greg S]

8 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Honestly if Ralph were still running things, someone like Jim Caldwell or Alex Van Pelt would be our HC.

 

In Ralph's defense he did make a big time in 78 by getting Chuck Knox to come here from the Rams. I can't argue your point though as Ralph did make a lot of cheap hires.

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, JetsFan20 said:

I don’t think anybody really knows to what degree Woody was involved over the past four years. I’m sure he and his brother talked and were aligned on some of these decisions. It’s not like Woody was on Mars and couldn’t be contacted. 
 

Joe Douglas signed a 6 year deal to be a GM. There is no chance the Johnsons are completely cleaning house and firing him after one offseason.
 

Will they let him take the lead and hire the next coach? That is the question 

 

As it currently stands Douglas does not have the power to hire/fire the HC. Gase reports to ownership which is something the fan base has been heavily critical about. 

 

 

The Johnson Bros have owned the Jets for 20 years, and they've only been marginally successful.  They had some extraordinary luck in 2009 to get to the AFCCG but like the Bills and Dolphins, the Jets have been a mediocre team at best for most of the 21st century.   I can't see the Johnson brothers somehow changing their stripes and starting to make significantly better personnel decisions.   The Rooneys they're not.

[GunnerBill]

I am intrigued by everyone jumping to "no chance". I'm less quick to get there. I know I will get flamed for this but I don't believe that it was any great strategy from the Pegulas that led them to hire Sean McDermott. They lucked out. Was the Bills a more attractive destination because of the investment on the facilities and the $$s we were willing to pay to a first time Head coach than under Ralph? Sure. But let's live in a world where Ralph is still owner in his mid 90s and the Bills are looking for a coach in January 2017. Okay we don't have as much to offer but when the wheel stops spinning Buffalo is the only job offering McDermott a shot...… anyone think he rejects it? I don't.

 

The Pegulas didn't get to McDermott because they are better judges of talented football leadership than Ralph. They lucked into it. Remember they let Doug Whaley (a guy they were still in hock to despite "privvygate" run the search) and then when McDermott finally got in the building realised they wanted Whaley out. That doesn't smack of long term strategy or planning. They lucked into Sean McDermott. Now don't get me wrong, once he was here they were smart enough to spot that this was the guy who could turn the place around and deliver the "culture change" Bills coaches and GMs had been talking about for a decade and they turned over full control of the ship to him very quickly. I have no evidence, however, to suggest that was the plan all along.

 

So do I believe Ralph could have lucked into Sean McDermott as well? Yes, I think that was possible. Do I believe that he'd have then stepped back and let McDermott have total control and hire his own GM? No, probably not. That would have had a level of interference from people at the top of the franchise. In conclusion the chances of a turnaround like this were probably lower with Ralph than with the Pegulas. But the Pegulas are not geniuses for bringing this about. The man responsible for Buffalo finally being a relevant football team after 20 years I Sean McDermott. It is as simple as that for me. He is the best thing that has happened to this franchise in the time I have been a fan of the team. Yes, Terry and Kim hired him. They get credit for that. But it would be significant revisionist history to look back at the events of January 2017 as a perfectly delivered strategic masterplan. It is a fact of life in whatever industry that sometimes you do everything right and get the wrong outcome. Sometimes you get your process entirely wrong but the outcome is very right. That is what happened with the hiring of Coach McDermott.

[JohnNord]

11 hours ago, JetsFan20 said:

How much of an effect has the new ownership

had on the organization? 
 

Do you think Ralph would have hired McDermott and Beane and the results would be similar? 

New ownership had a huge effect.  Not just on the on-field product but also with how much money they spent upgrading facilities and on front office personnel.

 

I will die on this hill...Ralph Wilson WAS the reason for the Bills drought.  Not because he wasn’t generous the WNY region because his philanthropic efforts were tremendous.  But as an NFL owner he was terrible.   After firing Tom Donahoe, every major hire was made out of cronyism...EVERY single one.  This included the hiring people Marv Levy, Russ Brandon, and Buddy Nix in leadership positions.  He also refused to fire some of the longtime Bills employees who were clearly bad for business.

 

You can argue that the Pegulas lucked out on hiring Sean McDermott.  He was disciplined, organized, and thought long-term. The exact opposite from the arrogance and bluster of Doug Whaley and Rex Ryan, who swindled them.  McDermott likely recruited Beane who had similar traits. 

[Just Joshin']

Would he - who knows? 

 

Did he - yes once.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

 

You can argue that the Pegulas lucked out on hiring Sean McDermott.  He was disciplined, organized, and thought long-term. The exact opposite from the arrogance and bluster of Doug Whaley and Rex Ryan, who swindled them.  McDermott likely recruited Beane who had similar traits. 

 

Not only can you argue it.... it is hard to argue against it. The list of candidates was drawn up for them by the very "arrogance and bluster" that you refer to in respect of Whaley.

[JohnNord]

22 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Honestly if Ralph were still running things, someone like Jim Caldwell or Alex Van Pelt would be our HC.

He’d make Jim Kelly GM and hire Frank Reich as OC

1 minute ago, Just Joshin' said:

Would he - who knows? 

 

Did he - yes once.

He had nearly 2 decades to turn things around and failed miserably 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

If it were not for Ralph (May he Rest In Peace), there would be no foolish 8, the Raiders would have folded (he loaned Al Davis $ to keep the Raiders franchise alive in the early 1960’s), that if you follow the logic would have an AFL that wouldn’t survive, and so on.  He brought this city two AFL Championships, he resisted moving the team to Jacksonville, kept it in Buffalo forever and made it impossible for a successive owner to move the team, and donates 50% of the proceeds of the sale to philanthropic causes in Buffalo.  For a man from Detroit loving our city and team so much he named the team after the previous Buffalo Bills from the 1940’s.  He always fought for small market owners survival, was a driving force for the shared revenue concept.  If we are going to discuss whether Ralph would turn this team around, it’s almost fitting especially younger fans know how many great things he did for the NFL, the team, and the city.

 

Now whether he would have been able to land Beane and McD which is where this starts, I’d say no.  He probably would have held onto Marron longer which was a typical Ralph move.  I never had the good fortune to meet him, but my dad would see him every once in awhile at the Buffalo News.  He told me one day he was leaving the news to go to M&T bank for a meeting and Ralph said to dad, if you’re heading that way, let’s walk together.  He told me Mr. Wilson couldn’t be any nice and asked my dad what he would do next on the team.  They only walked together for two blocks, but of course my father was just polite and said he was doing a great job.  This was during the Polian days.  Just the fact that Mr. Wilson wanted to know from an average fan what are some good ideas just shows back in the day, he care what fans thought.

 

God bless Mr. Wilson and hopefully you’re smiling up in heaven what he can see is happening to our beloved Bills.

Its not that Ralph didn’t make reasonable business and charitable decisions, and to his credit he did, it’s that he was just really bad at football decisions.

 

His football successes came when he let the his GMs & HCs make those decisions, and as we all know, that was infrequent. 
 

That and Ralph created the environment that lead to Bill Polian being fired, by purposefully  putting a family member in a conflicting position of authority with his GM,   it was a self inflicted wound that the franchise under Ralph never recovered from. Bill Polian got his NFL championship ring, Ralph never did, and that is truly a shame.  
 

That said, Ralph’s biggest and best football contribution to Buffalo was keeping the team there. Ralph had a good heart, God rest his soul... 

 

Go Bills!!!

[JohnNord]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I am intrigued by everyone jumping to "no chance". I'm less quick to get there. I know I will get flamed for this but I don't believe that it was any great strategy from the Pegulas that led them to hire Sean McDermott. They lucked out. Was the Bills a more attractive destination because of the investment on the facilities and the $$s we were willing to pay to a first time Head coach than under Ralph? Sure. But let's live in a world where Ralph is still owner in his mid 90s and the Bills are looking for a coach in January 2017. Okay we don't have as much to offer but when the wheel stops spinning Buffalo is the only job offering McDermott a shot...… anyone think he rejects it? I don't.

 

The Pegulas didn't get to McDermott because they are better judges of talented football leadership than Ralph. They lucked into it. Remember they let Doug Whaley (a guy they were still in hock to despite "privvygate" run the search) and then when McDermott finally got in the building realised they wanted Whaley out. That doesn't smack of long term strategy or planning. They lucked into Sean McDermott. Now don't get me wrong, once he was here they were smart enough to spot that this was the guy who could turn the place around and deliver the "culture change" Bills coaches and GMs had been talking about for a decade and they turned over full control of the ship to him very quickly. I have no evidence, however, to suggest that was the plan all along.

 

So do I believe Ralph could have lucked into Sean McDermott as well? Yes, I think that was possible. Do I believe that he'd have then stepped back and let McDermott have total control and hire his own GM? No, probably not. That would have had a level of interference from people at the top of the franchise. In conclusion the chances of a turnaround like this were probably lower with Ralph than with the Pegulas. But the Pegulas are not geniuses for bringing this about. The man responsible for Buffalo finally being a relevant football team after 20 years I Sean McDermott. It is as simple as that for me. He is the best thing that has happened to this franchise in the time I have been a fan of the team. Yes, Terry and Kim hired him. They get credit for that. But it would be significant revisionist history to look back at the events of January 2017 as a perfectly delivered strategic masterplan. It is a fact of life in whatever industry that sometimes you do everything right and get the wrong outcome. Sometimes you get your process entirely wrong but the outcome is very right. That is what happened with the hiring of Coach McDermott.

In my opinion, part of what McDermott successful is that he was given the autonomy to make some major decisions within the organization.  This likely included minimizing Russ Brandon’s role with football, removing Whaley and some long-time employees, upgrading team facilities and changing procedures and policies.  
 

None of this happens if Ralph is in charge.  He was very much about keeping things consistent.  He could have hired McDermott for sure, but there’s no way he could accomplish what he did the last 4 years in that organization.  
 

To that point, you can question the Pegula’s decision to give a first-time HC that much power to begin with.  Fortunately...it worked 

[corta765]

They would've ended the drought in relatively the same time frame, I could've seen him prompting Schwartz to run the team which would've meant a better D in 2015/16 so maybe they break it then. BUT I do not think you would've seen this. It probably would still be more years of 7-10 wins tops where we play the "if only game" with a good defense and offense that can do anything minus maybe a decent RB.

Edited November 11, 2020 by corta765

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, JohnNord said:

In my opinion, part of what McDermott successful is that he was given the autonomy to make some major decisions within the organization.  This likely included minimizing Russ Brandon’s role with football, removing Whaley and some long-time employees, upgrading team facilities and changing procedures and policies.  
 

None of this happens if Ralph is in charge.  He was very much about keeping things consistent.  He could have hired McDermott for sure, but there’s no way he could accomplish what he did the last 4 years in that organization.  
 

To that point, you can question the Pegula’s decision to give a first-time HC that much power to begin with.  Fortunately...it worked 

 

I agree and my post said that. I can get myself the first half of the way.... Ralph lucking into McDermott. I struggle to get myself to the "and then being hands off" (not Ralph himself but his cronies). Maybe McDermott succeeds despite that but I agree it would have significantly reduced his chances of success if they had tied him to Doug Whaley or some other stooge.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

After TP bought the team, Russ still had a role here.  But after the rex hire, I don't think he was really in charge of hiring anymore.  At ralphs advanced age, Russ was defacto owner in many ways.  I think Russ would've continued doing what he normally did - splash hirings to generate money.  

[dpberr]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

The Johnson Bros have owned the Jets for 20 years, and they've only been marginally successful.  They had some extraordinary luck in 2009 to get to the AFCCG but like the Bills and Dolphins, the Jets have been a mediocre team at best for most of the 21st century.   I can't see the Johnson brothers somehow changing their stripes and starting to make significantly better personnel decisions.   The Rooneys they're not.

 

It is amazing that the Jets have just one coach in franchise history with a win percentage of .500 or better - Bill Parcells.  (Al Groh technically counts, but he coached just one season.) 

 

IMO, the Johnson brothers listen too much to the football "consultant" industry that's greased by the agents for coaches and management. 

 

Luis Castillo has the best agent of all time in the NFL.  However, Adam Gase is not a good football coach, but his agent rivals Castillo's Rasputin-like ability to get him jobs he shouldn't have any business in getting.

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

After TP bought the team, Russ still had a role here.  But after the rex hire, I don't think he was really in charge of hiring anymore.  At ralphs advanced age, Russ was defacto owner in many ways.  I think Russ would've continued doing what he normally did - splash hirings to generate money.  

Not officially but many believed he still had some input and presence around football decisions.  I don’t think he actually was moved out of football ops until McDermott came on board

[TBBills Fan]

13 hours ago, clayboy54 said:

Are you serious? Ralph was a great supporter of WNY, but he was cheap as hell. No way would McDermott or any other top prospect be coaching this team under Wilson. Plus, he meddled in football ops. So, whoever he hired on the cheap didn’t put up with it for long.

 

 

This is all true

 

Add in his advanced age period,. He had croanies galore and his entire purpose was really keeping the team positioned to stay during the transition to new ownership. So, being competitive wasnt the first priority, keeping the books clean, keeping it profitable were the biggest concerns.

 

 I have to give a ton of credit to the Pegulas and the team they built with Beane and Mcdermott

 

I also give a ton of credit to Ralph for making sure we are able to have this moment

Edited November 11, 2020 by TBBills Fan

[Big Turk]

13 hours ago, JetsFan20 said:

How much of an effect has the new ownership

had on the organization? 
 

Do you think Ralph would have hired McDermott and Beane and the results would be similar? 

 

Hell no.

[Figster]

Clearly nothing about McD or Beane jumping out at you that suggests Ralph Wilson couldn't have made the same hire IMO

 

I mean I'm sure its a much different story now with their success in Buffalo.

 

I remember a time when Ralph was real close to coaxing Bill Cowher out of retirement.

 

Its not like R W didn't try...

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Figster

[Nextmanup]

13 hours ago, JetsFan20 said:

How much of an effect has the new ownership

had on the organization? 
 

Do you think Ralph would have hired McDermott and Beane and the results would be similar? 

No.  There is a reason why we didn't turn it around, and after a certain point in time, the continued passage of time only made the situation worse.  

 

After a while, the only way the organization was going to move forward was with Wilson's death, given that he didn't want to sell in his lifetime.

 

 

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

No, we would still be in the same situation the franchise has been in for the bulk of its existence.