Trump supporters...please show class. Don't be sore losers...

[BillStime]

11 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

This title is hilarious, as if at any point in our countries history Conservative voters have ever shown as little class as liberals the past 4 years. More importantly I would hope liberals would try and explain to us conservatives how Trump is a racist but Biden is not when Biden sponsored a bill that decimated the Black community and did a eulogy for a KKK member?

 

 

[oldmanfan]

39 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's a good question.  How do we get people working together again?  I've thought about that too and how it likely won't happen after another contentious Presidential election that played out under the circumstances we have now.  But here's where I think it needs to start.

 

The most important thing right now is that people believe in the legitimacy and fairness of the election process.  And that every vote of every citizen cast is counted correctly by the rules, procedures, and laws governing the electoral process.  In the big picture of our republic and the democratic process it really isn't important if Biden or Trump won.  What matters is the established process and procedures are followed to the letter so we all understand the results are legitimate.  But now we have the second election in a row where about 1/2 the country thinks the electoral process isn't fair.  If we walk away from this event without producing a result of legitmacy and fairness were doomed from the start again.

 

So what to do?  Well, the first thing is to embrace the truth, the search for the truth and resist any efforts from anyone to suppress to truth.  The contention here is there were voting irregularities.  Dead people casting ballots, poll workers denied their rights under the process to observe the vote counting process and cast objections, and abuses of the mail-in ballot process.  These allegations are focused on several "battle ground" states.  To name a few.

 

The most likely scenario is the supporters of the declared "winner" will resist and dismiss these allegations.  But should they?  And is it really in their best interests to do so?  

 

First, there are allegations that the votes of "dead people" have been cast and counted in certain State and Counties.  And since dead people are incapable of showing up at the polls and casting a vote in person or filling out and mailing a mail-in ballot logic leads to the conclusion that some "live person" not authorized to cast a vote in the name of the dead person either showed up at the polling place and cast a ballot or filled out a mail-in ballot in violation of the process.  Shouldn't we all be interested in understanding how the votes of dead people found their way into the electoral process and have those voted invalidated and removed from the count?  Shouldn't everyone be interested in the truth and the validity of the electoral process and the result?   And shouldn't everyone with a shred of integrity and moral character  be interested in the motivation of people that cast illegal votes in the names of dead people and hold them accountable and have them suffer the consequences of their actions?  And if these allegations prove to be false shouldn't we all be satisfied that the alleged violation of the electoral process was properly investigated and found to be false?   Should we all be satisfied that the truth was found and the process was found to be fair?  

 

Allegations that poll observers were refused their right under the process to observe the vote count and object to specific ballots that could potentially violate the count process?  Should we all be interested in why poll observers were inhibited from observing the vote count process and understanding the motivation of those violating their right under the process?  Shouldn't we all be interesting in knowing if they were hiding something or what other process and procedure of the electoral process that might have been violated?  Shouldn't we all be interested in knowing the truth and insuring all votes were properly counted?

 

Allegations that mail-in ballots were back-dated to allow them to be counted have been made.  Shouldn't we all be interested to know if and why back-dating of ballots is an issue?  Shouldn't we all be interested that the ballots were counted and cast properly? 

 

In closing everyone needs to ask themselves.  Is the result so important that I'm willing to compromise my personal integrity and moral beliefs and overlook violations of the electoral process?  Am I unwilling to give people I might disagree with a fair and impartial review of their grievances simply because we disagree on specific issues?  And what happens when the shoe is on the other foot?  Will I think I have a "right" to something I might deny to others? 

 

I think the biggest problem we face is that everybody is afraid of the truth.  Lying seems to be so much more convenient and easier.  But "the truth will set you free" as Dr. King said.  For a long time I didn't quite understand what he meant.  But I think I do now.  What it simply means is if you deal with the truth and facts and ignore and dismiss everybody's BS you'll see things as they really are and this will eliminate the power and control that the system and other people have over you.    

 

 

The truth is of course necessary.  But looking at the 2016 election the Trump administration put together a committee to examine supposed fraud in voting, and it was disbanded because nothing was found.  Looking at the current election, it seems that voters followed state laws for submitting votes, either by voting in person early, by mail in, or by voting in person last Tuesday.  Those empowered by their states to run elections, including Republicans, have stated the counting was done properly.  And while legitimate challenges should of course be allowed, vague accusations with no proof or validity should not.  You mention challenges about observers.  When that was brought before a judge, the Reublican’s attorney had to admit that their observers were in fact present.

 

So I’m all for truth, but I am not for blind accusations with no proof or validity being done simply to try and raise suspicions.  That harms the electoral process more than anything.

[WEATHER DOT COM]

Allegations without evidence can and should be rightfully dismissed without evidence.

[ALF]

If Democrats were able to cheat with the mail in they would have put in a Senate majority . 

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's a good question.  How do we get people working together again?  I've thought about that too and how it likely won't happen after another contentious Presidential election that played out under the circumstances we have now.  But here's where I think it needs to start.

 

The most important thing right now is that people believe in the legitimacy and fairness of the election process.  And that every vote of every citizen cast is counted correctly by the rules, procedures, and laws governing the electoral process.  In the big picture of our republic and the democratic process it really isn't important if Biden or Trump won.  What matters is the established process and procedures are followed to the letter so we all understand the results are legitimate.  But now we have the second election in a row where about 1/2 the country thinks the electoral process isn't fair.  If we walk away from this event without producing a result of legitmacy and fairness were doomed from the start again.

 

So what to do?  Well, the first thing is to embrace the truth, the search for the truth and resist any efforts from anyone to suppress to truth.  The contention here is there were voting irregularities.  Dead people casting ballots, poll workers denied their rights under the process to observe the vote counting process and cast objections, and abuses of the mail-in ballot process.  These allegations are focused on several "battle ground" states.  To name a few.

 

The most likely scenario is the supporters of the declared "winner" will resist and dismiss these allegations.  But should they?  And is it really in their best interests to do so?  

 

First, there are allegations that the votes of "dead people" have been cast and counted in certain State and Counties.  And since dead people are incapable of showing up at the polls and casting a vote in person or filling out and mailing a mail-in ballot logic leads to the conclusion that some "live person" not authorized to cast a vote in the name of the dead person either showed up at the polling place and cast a ballot or filled out a mail-in ballot in violation of the process.  Shouldn't we all be interested in understanding how the votes of dead people found their way into the electoral process and have those voted invalidated and removed from the count?  Shouldn't everyone be interested in the truth and the validity of the electoral process and the result?   And shouldn't everyone with a shred of integrity and moral character  be interested in the motivation of people that cast illegal votes in the names of dead people and hold them accountable and have them suffer the consequences of their actions?  And if these allegations prove to be false shouldn't we all be satisfied that the alleged violation of the electoral process was properly investigated and found to be false?   Should we all be satisfied that the truth was found and the process was found to be fair?  

 

Allegations that poll observers were refused their right under the process to observe the vote count and object to specific ballots that could potentially violate the count process?  Should we all be interested in why poll observers were inhibited from observing the vote count process and understanding the motivation of those violating their right under the process?  Shouldn't we all be interesting in knowing if they were hiding something or what other process and procedure of the electoral process that might have been violated?  Shouldn't we all be interested in knowing the truth and insuring all votes were properly counted?

 

Allegations that mail-in ballots were back-dated to allow them to be counted have been made.  Shouldn't we all be interested to know if and why back-dating of ballots is an issue?  Shouldn't we all be interested that the ballots were counted and cast properly? 

 

In closing everyone needs to ask themselves.  Is the result so important that I'm willing to compromise my personal integrity and moral beliefs and overlook violations of the electoral process?  Am I unwilling to give people I might disagree with a fair and impartial review of their grievances simply because we disagree on specific issues?  And what happens when the shoe is on the other foot?  Will I think I have a "right" to something I might deny to others? 

 

I think the biggest problem we face is that everybody is afraid of the truth.  Lying seems to be so much more convenient and easier.  But "the truth will set you free" as Dr. King said.  For a long time I didn't quite understand what he meant.  But I think I do now.  What it simply means is if you deal with the truth and facts and ignore and dismiss everybody's BS you'll see things as they really are and this will eliminate the power and control that the system and other people have over you.    

 

 

 

Anybody can make any allegation about anyone or anything, especially on social media.   Without real evidence -- names, places, times, etc -- that will stand up to scrutiny in court,  it's all sound and fury without meaning.  So far, the GOP hasn't provided any kind of proof that there was any significant fraud anywhere much less any kind of organized fraud in multiple states, which would be necessary to "steal" a national election.  

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

41 minutes ago, ALF said:

If Democrats were able to cheat with the mail in they would have put in a Senate majority . 

My assessment is the objective was purely focused on getting rid of Trump.  And this view was shared by many Republicans such as the "never-Trumpers" and other members of the professional political class that steered clear of supporting, endorsing, or campaigning for Trump.  Trump is not a member of the professional political class.  He is a loud and abusive party-crasher that for all purposes, good and bad, interrupted their racket for almost 4 years.  So the bosses met and made a deal to keep hands off the Senate races. 

[WEATHER DOT COM]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So the bosses met and made a deal to keep hands off the Senate races. 

 

Allegations without evidence can and should be rightfully dismissed without evidence.

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Anybody can make any allegation about anyone or anything, especially on social media.   Without real evidence -- names, places, times, etc -- that will stand up to scrutiny in court,  it's all sound and fury without meaning.  So far, the GOP hasn't provided any kind of proof that there was any significant fraud anywhere much less any kind of organized fraud in multiple states, which would be necessary to "steal" a national election.  

 

 

I don't disagree but I think we're very early in the process to issue a blanket dismissal of all potential improprieties.  After all its only been a few days.  And its that quick and immediate dismissal that creates a lot of suspicion and generates distrust of the process.  The fact is we don't know all the facts.   

4 minutes ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

 

Allegations without evidence can and should be rightfully dismissed without evidence.

So the scientific process of discovery for developing a hypothesis or theory and then performing investigations and analysis, gathering facts to either support or dispute a potential conclusion is invalid without evidence that you are right to begin with?  Which eliminates the need to perform any investigation?  Wow!  If we used that line of thinking we'd still be living in caves and sitting around campfires being hunted by Sabertooth Tigers.. 

[WEATHER DOT COM]

7 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So the scientific process of discovery for developing a hypothesis or theory and then performing investigations and analysis, gathering facts to either support or dispute a potential conclusion is invalid without evidence that you are right to begin with?  Which eliminates the need to perform any investigation?  Wow!  If we used that line of thinking we'd still be living in caves and sitting around campfires being hunted by Sabertooth Tigers.. 

 

Are you a flat earther too?

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 minutes ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

 

Are you a flat earther too?

That's funny.  You will make an excellent drone.  The only thing flat going on here is your brainwave pattern..

[WEATHER DOT COM]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's funny.  You will make an excellent drone.  The only thing flat going on here is your brainwave pattern..

 

All the scientific evidence, specifically the vote count, shows Biden won.

 

Your evidence is

 

24 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So the bosses met and made a deal to keep hands off the Senate races. 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by wAcKy ZeBrA

[shoshin]

I read the PA complaint today. Zero allegation of voter fraud. Zero evidence of vote changing. Zero request for votes to be switched. 
 

Just process complaints and the fear of “what could have happened.” A parade of fantasies around what could be going on at a distance of 10 feet from vote counters and the like, but not one instance or allegation of actual votes being changed. Let alone Rudy and his witness’s claim of 600,000 plus claim. 
 

That case is going nowhere for Trump. 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

9 minutes ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

 

Are you a flat earther too?

 

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's funny.  You will make an excellent drone.  The only thing flat going on here is your brainwave pattern..

So what you're saying is "no, I don't have any evidence to the contrary but jybfeelings are hurt"

 

Facts don't care about your feelings. I feel like I've heard that somewhere before

[WEATHER DOT COM]

1 minute ago, shoshin said:

I read the PA complaint today. Zero allegation of voter fraud. Zero evidence of vote changing. Zero request for votes to be switched. 
 

Just process complaints and the fear of “what could have happened.” A parade of fantasies around what could be going on at a distance of 10 feet from vote counters and the like, but not one instance or allegation of actual votes being changed. Let alone Rudy and his witness’s claim of 600,000 plus claim. 
 

That case is going nowhere for Trump. 

 

Nevermind the character of Rudy's witness - does Rudy have any associates who are not sexual predators?

[shoshin]

13 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Then how do we get the country working together again?

 

This is the ultimate question. We have been in a long period of peace and prosperity the likes of which we've never had, and yet have a political rhetoric that resembles warring countries.

 

It will take an unending display of public decency and civility, on both sides, even when someone says or does something insulting, even after your ox gets gored. It is going to be VERY hard. That's how to do it in concept. In practice:

 

(1) Get some early bipartisan wins. Pass a few no-brainer things but do them to huge bipartisan fanfare. "Today we reached bipartisan agreement on Covid stimulus with my friends across the aisle..." etc.

(2) As part of (1), emphasize in joint press conferences that the win could not have been possible without hard negotiations and compromise, the stuff of democracy. 

(3) Publicly show and emphasize some moments of civility. Biden invites Mitch to the White House to discuss health care reform, criminal justice legislation, immigration, etc. Each time make it very public and close with a joint press conference. 

 

I would say that's the start. How we get from there--the leadership--to getting people to converse respectfully: That's tougher. 

[HeHateMe]

I mean we saw this coming from 4 years ago... Leading up to the 2016 election Trump said it was rigged against him and there was widespread fraud... but he won so you didn't hear anything about it afterwards... 

 

What did we just see leading up to this election... Trump spouting off that it was again rigged against him and there was widespread voter fraud.  Shouting some insane theory and trying to fit the pieces afterwards is Trumps go to.  

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 minute ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

 

All the scientific evidence, specifically the vote count, shows Biden won.

 

Your evidence is

 

 

This is getting us nowhere.  Asking for evidence here is just a game to shut down conversation.

 

What "first hand" evidence do any of us have that the process was free and fair?  Nothing.  What "first hand" evidence to any of us have that the process was tainted?  Nothing.  How would anyone have any "evidence" unless they are an election officials charged with vote counted or monitoring the results or someone directly performing an investigation?  We know what we are told to know and we believe it or not based on many things such as the credibility we assign to the source.    

You evidently are willing to believe what you are told without question because it either suits your position or you trust the source.  I am willing to entertain the idea that things need more examination and that it can't hurt to take a look because I think the entire system is corrupt and due for a reset.  And Biden ain't no reset.. 

And frankly I don't care who won because I can say with almost 100% certainty that no matter who won it isn't going to impact anything important in my life one way or the other.  This is the same boat most of us are in.  I'll still need to pay my bills, work my job, take care of myself and my family, pay taxes, and keep trudging along.  Trump didn't help me and I think he's an idiot.  In fact his tax law changes totally screwed me.  And Biden isn't going to help me either unless he wants to pay my bills and mortgage for me and other than that just leave me alone. 

[oldmanfan]

28 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

This is getting us nowhere.  Asking for evidence here is just a game to shut down conversation.

 

What "first hand" evidence do any of us have that the process was free and fair?  Nothing.  What "first hand" evidence to any of us have that the process was tainted?  Nothing.  How would anyone have any "evidence" unless they are an election officials charged with vote counted or monitoring the results or someone directly performing an investigation?  We know what we are told to know and we believe it or not based on many things such as the credibility we assign to the source.    

You evidently are willing to believe what you are told without question because it either suits your position or you trust the source.  I am willing to entertain the idea that things need more examination and that it can't hurt to take a look because I think the entire system is corrupt and due for a reset.  And Biden ain't no reset.. 

And frankly I don't care who won because I can say with almost 100% certainty that no matter who won it isn't going to impact anything important in my life one way or the other.  This is the same boat most of us are in.  I'll still need to pay my bills, work my job, take care of myself and my family, pay taxes, and keep trudging along.  Trump didn't help me and I think he's an idiot.  In fact his tax law changes totally screwed me.  And Biden isn't going to help me either unless he wants to pay my bills and mortgage for me and other than that just leave me alone. 

As I pointed out above under Trump’s administration they convened a study under that guy from Kansas to uncover all the supposed fraud.  It was quietly disbanded because nothing was found.  Other studies of fraud have similarly shown none to very small fractions of a percent incidence.

 

The data is there.  It seems you don’t want to believe it.

Edited November 10, 2020 by oldmanfan

[HeHateMe]

15 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

As I pointed out above under Trump’s administration they convened a study under that guy from to uncover all the supposed fraud.  It was quietly disbanded because nothing was found.  Other studies of fraud have similarly shown none to very small fractions of a percent incidence.

 

The data is there.  It seems you don’t want to believe it.

 

Can't be having any of that now can we... 

[Bakin]

12 hours ago, TBBills said:

Yea the guy who was picked by a BLACK President as his VP, the same guy who has the first Black woman vice president. Sounds so racist to a white man like yourself I bet.

B.c you don't bother looking at the conversation that everyone had with aristocrat already... Stop repeating defeated bull####.

She’s half Caribbean half Indian. Does that mean she’s BLACK?  Does that mean Biden isn’t racisssssss?  What about all his derogatory comments about blacks, and what about his crime Bill and what about him holding hands with the Grand Wizard?

I guess those all get a pass in your hypocritical eyes. 
Trump is the least racist POTUS - maybe ever. Only rubes like you judge people on the color of their skin.