HereComesTheReignAgain Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 Has the NFL provided an official explanation for the virtual elimination of holding penalties against O Lineman? I have not heard anything and it seems like this would be a much bigger topic. You can routinely see blatant holding penalties that would have been called in prior seasons go unflagged. With the unprecedented offensive output, I would expect that to be accompanied by questions about reasons for the drastic change. I’m also surprised that more defensive players aren’t complaining about this change.
First Round Bust Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 the analytics show strong correlation to decrease in these holding penalties to the same decrease in playing time for one Lee Smith...TE Bills...false starts are down as well... Bills had same number of penalties as NE which is strongest analytic of a close game...next question please 1 7 1
formerlyofCtown Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, chknwing334 said: Has the NFL provided an official explanation for the virtual elimination of holding penalties against O Lineman? I have not heard anything and it seems like this would be a much bigger topic. You can routinely see blatant holding penalties that would have been called in prior seasons go unflagged. With the unprecedented offensive output, I would expect that to be accompanied by questions about reasons for the drastic change. I’m also surprised that more defensive players aren’t complaining about this change. If you watch these games closely you will see our DL constantly getting hooked up under their arms and jersey twisted around OLs hand by the collars constantly. This is the demise of our D this year. Our D relies on penetrating into the backfield quickly and disrupting the timing of the play. That isn't possible if OL are allowed to arm-bar the defender. Edited November 2, 2020 by formerlyofCtown 2 2
LABILLBACKER Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 Jerry Hughes picked a bad year to be a DE. He's held on 80% of his pass rush snaps. Maybe the league just wants more exciting high scoring games with no fans? It's definitely obvious.
Malazan Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 It's interesting that the league didn't send this out to teams to tell them they would be doing this in the upcoming season. The Bills bet on faster, penetrating lineman who are particularly susceptible to holding and are paying for it big time. 2
Rew Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) The NFL and officiating group did not set out to make less holding penalties or higher scoring games. The change was well intended and inline with what most of us would hope for. They wanted to only call "clear and obvious" and get rid of judgement calls by officials (https://www.nfl.com/news/referees-focusing-on-clear-and-obvious-calls-as-penalties-drop). This was a focus made due to growing frustration with the perception of officiating bias or game deciding "ticky-tacky" calls(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28022721/the-nfl-officiating-crisis-why-sound-alarm%3fplatform=amp). I'm not sure how they decided the line of "clear and obvious", but offensive holding and defensive pass interference are the 2 most "judgement call" type plays. It makes sense that these two penalties would have been the most impacted. Also, I agree that this could have been communicated to teams. Usually they bring up points of focus to teams with new things that will be focused on calling. This is sort of the opposite though, it's more a point of focus on calling more consistently across officials. It's hard to bring that up as a point of focus without saying "we screwed up" or "you can now get away with things". Edited November 3, 2020 by Rew
Jauronimo Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Rew said: The NFL and officiating group did not set out to make less holding penalties or higher scoring games. The change was well intended and inline with what most of us would hope for. They wanted to only call "clear and obvious" and get rid of judgement calls by officials (https://www.nfl.com/news/referees-focusing-on-clear-and-obvious-calls-as-penalties-drop). This was a focus made due to growing frustration with the perception of officiating bias or game deciding "ticky-tacky" calls(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28022721/the-nfl-officiating-crisis-why-sound-alarm%3fplatform=amp). I'm not sure how they decided the line of "clear and obvious", but offensive holding and defensive pass interference are the 2 most "judgement call" type plays. It makes sense that these two penalties would have been the most impacted. Also, I agree that this could have been communicated to teams. Usually they bring up points of focus to teams with new things that will be focused on calling. This is sort of the opposite though, it's more a point of focus on calling more consistently across officials. It's hard to bring that up as a point of focus without saying "we screwed up" or "you can now get away with things". They did it with referee judgement.
Rew Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Jauronimo said: They did it with referee judgement. To me clear and obvious would be of all officials call it and 9/10 neutral players and neutral fans agree, it's a clear and obvious call. If it's 50/50 on player/fans or even worse on officials then it is not clear and obvious. There is some line in between where you get most/all officials calling it the same and most neutral fans seeing it the same way. That's a good balance. Safety issues will likely be different as officials are asked to change the way the game is played, but for routine calls "clear and obvious" should be the same for most people. 1
Jauronimo Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 Just now, Rew said: To me clear and obvious would be of all officials call it and 9/10 neutral players and neutral fans agree, it's a clear and obvious call. If it's 50/50 on player/fans or even worse on officials then it is not clear and obvious. There is some line in between where you get most/all officials calling it the same and most neutral fans seeing it the same way. That's a good balance. Safety issues will likely be different as officials are asked to change the way the game is played, but for routine calls "clear and obvious" should be the same for most people. My point is that all penalties are subject to judgement from the officials. I would hope they weren't calling holding just to be safe prior to the 2020-2021 season. It seems the officials have been advised to only call holding in the most egregious situations this year to avoid drive killing penalties. Now the incentive for OLinemen is clear, hold on every play because they aren't calling it.
Saxum Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 One other thing was missing this year besides most of training camp and preseason games - referees, a good number of them being paid as full time employees, going to various teams camps and stadiums and teaching players proper techniques and what is going to be called by referees. A coincidence I do not think so.
billsherd Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 This is one reason why Bills dline is struggling which is creating problems for mlb. Bills Dline is not built for power. It's no excuse but when the league is playing one way and than they switch it up all of sudden it will effect defenses, some more than the other.
Dablitzkrieg Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 I think it goes without saying- more points, more viewers.
WideNine Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 3 hours ago, billsherd said: This is one reason why Bills dline is struggling which is creating problems for mlb. Bills Dline is not built for power. It's no excuse but when the league is playing one way and than they switch it up all of sudden it will effect defenses, some more than the other. They do however call the hands to the face penalties as Oliver drew one of those on a critical 3rd down stop. It was legit, but happens on just about every other defensive snap Hughes takes and (insert cricket noises). Either way, if this leads to less flags and is applied equally to both o-lines I don't mind.
Chandler#81 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 5 hours ago, Rew said: The NFL and officiating group did not set out to make less holding penalties or higher scoring games. The change was well intended and inline with what most of us would hope for. They wanted to only call "clear and obvious" and get rid of judgement calls by officials (https://www.nfl.com/news/referees-focusing-on-clear-and-obvious-calls-as-penalties-drop). This was a focus made due to growing frustration with the perception of officiating bias or game deciding "ticky-tacky" calls(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28022721/the-nfl-officiating-crisis-why-sound-alarm%3fplatform=amp). I'm not sure how they decided the line of "clear and obvious", but offensive holding and defensive pass interference are the 2 most "judgement call" type plays. It makes sense that these two penalties would have been the most impacted. Also, I agree that this could have been communicated to teams. Usually they bring up points of focus to teams with new things that will be focused on calling. This is sort of the opposite though, it's more a point of focus on calling more consistently across officials. It's hard to bring that up as a point of focus without saying "we screwed up" or "you can now get away with things". 5 hours ago, Rew said: To me clear and obvious would be of all officials call it and 9/10 neutral players and neutral fans agree, it's a clear and obvious call. If it's 50/50 on player/fans or even worse on officials then it is not clear and obvious. There is some line in between where you get most/all officials calling it the same and most neutral fans seeing it the same way. That's a good balance. Safety issues will likely be different as officials are asked to change the way the game is played, but for routine calls "clear and obvious" should be the same for most people. Interesting perspective. I’m not sure I buy it but I’m not sure of anything anymore. As Bills fans, we struggle every week to pinpoint what has happened to our once fine Defense. Certainly injuries have impacted the whole unit with no LBs or CBs who aren’t dealing with or overcoming an injury. But every week, we decide 1 or 2 players are specifically responsible for our ills and flame them to Hell. Now halfway through the season, no player has escaped our wrath. We blamed a lack of leadership, schemes, pass rush, coverage and run defense, but no one is able to pinpoint the overall rapid demise. The OP opined our DL players aren’t specialized in hand combat and not strong enough at the point of contact. All our guesses may be true and it may be that all aspects are partially to blame. That OL Holding Penalties are way down is undeniable, while holding is increasing by every drive in every game. If this philosophy continues into a non-pandemic future and isn’t a one-time thing to offset no Fanny’s in the seats, then yes, we need completely different players up front. It’s why we’re all clamoring to mortgage the teams future to add starting players before today’s trading deadline. I don’t see that happening, but again, I don’t know what to think.. 1
Ethan in Cleveland Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 It's a sad development. I agreed with the clamp down on defensive holding beyond 5 yards. To make the game fair, there should be more emphasis on offensive pass interference, and an emphasis on offensive holding. Its' a drive killing penalty and it should be. The issue is not less holding calls it is getting them right. Avoid the ticky tack stuff , and don't call a holding penalty every time a lineman pancakes a defender. But when they wrap there arms around them, the lineman should not have to flail their arms in the air to get a call. The offense has it too easy and allowing a pass rush is the only way to keep it fair. 1
bmur66 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 Call me crazy but I enjoy watching a bad ass defense wreak havoc. It's not all about high scores. 3
machine gun kelly Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 11 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said: If you watch these games closely you will see our DL constantly getting hooked up under their arms and jersey twisted around OLs hand by the collars constantly. This is the demise of our D this year. Our D relies on penetrating into the backfield quickly and disrupting the timing of the play. That isn't possible if OL are allowed to arm-bar the defender. The conspiracy theorist in me says the league had a private conversation with their refs and are trying to keep the offenses rolling to keep ratings up in a tough year. 1
formerlyofCtown Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 11 hours ago, machine gun kelly said: The conspiracy theorist in me says the league had a private conversation with their refs and are trying to keep the offenses rolling to keep ratings up in a tough year. The permitted holding for that purpose is public knowledge.
sullim4 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 Offensive holding is my least favorite penalty in the entire game. It is so subjective - I cannot look at a play and know whether the officials will call it; nearly every play has some degree of holding. The subjective nature in addition to the high severity of the penalty (10 yards) is annoying. The top tier of teams rarely get called for it as often as those in the lower tier, and it feels like officials use it in a biased way against teams they perceive to be of "lesser" talent. I would lower the penalty to 5 yards and dump the ticky tack stuff. You've got to bear hug the defender or physically tug at the jersey to trigger the penalty.
1ManRaid Posted November 4, 2020 Posted November 4, 2020 On a whim I focused in on two plays at random when the Pats were on offense against us, and on literally both of those plays there were "clear and obvious" uncalled holds where we were robbed of a sack or a TFL. Yes that is a small sample size, but I don't think it's a coincidence.
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