loveorhatembillsfan4life Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 Victory Monday! One thing I love to watch is anything postgame locker room speech related. I like to see the vibe of the room and wow were those Guys excited! (Oliver was jumpy! Mcd was going Hulkster for Zimmer) I had an opportunity here in Ontario to walk with Rory Mcllroy during a Saturday round at the Canadian Open two years ago in which he shot a 64 to take to the lead. I was a walking scorer. It was my first time and pretty much all other golfers who came to the tee would shake your hand off the bat and introduce themselves. Yet Rory surrounded by Thousands, no intros, gestures, just up to the tee and go. All business, dominated for 18 holes. But after the round when the camera's were off, and it was him, Myself and maybe 5 other people. He came out and couldn't have been more nicer. You could see his guard was down for at least the time he was around me, he looked relaxed, the weight of his competition that day was over. Mission accomplished. I think we have faced some real adversity since week 4. What happened to the team that could play with anyone? 2 tough losses followed with 2 AFC Divisoin matchups became must wins. Spain being released started to ask some questions of internal bickering going on within the team.. I give MCD credit. The pulse of this team looks more than fine to me. I don't think anyone in that locker room will give up on each other. This was a huge hurdle to cross, mentally. Getting the best of Bill Belichick who has been a thorn in our sides for so many years..Mission Accomplished. My post game reaction was "not a fun win". It wasn't meant to take anything away from the win. I love being 6-2. I am about as optimistic as anyone with this Team. I aspire for this team to be great. I want a Superbowl. I think week 1-4 Bills showed we can be a great team. And to be To be honest, I still didn't go to bed feeling like this was a great win. Part of me looked at the opposing team, it wasn't Brady, Gronk, Edleman, Gilmore out there. Just Belichick-and as good as he is with his defensive schemes, his roster is just not the same. That probably had a lot to do with my thinking.. But it was a divisional win, one we had to win and in the past the old Bills would lose these games. More often now than not in the MCD regime we find a way to pull these out which is the mark of a good team. Someone else mentioned on here, the execution has been a bit disappointing since Week 1-4. I agree 100 percent..We keep self inflicting little things that just frustrate the hell out of me. 3rd and 18, Oliver needs to know the down and situation and that you can't take a hands to the face penalty. Gabriel making that catch in the end zone probably deflates the Pats and puts this game out of reach. Cleaning these things up over the next 8 weeks might just mean the difference between moving on from one round to the next come playoff time .The little things take teams from being good to Great. -8 weeks to go, LETS GO!! 2 2
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 8 hours ago, hemma said: I wonder if anyone has revisited enough of the game to have a solid guess as to why Bates was pulled for Feliciano at Center + Feliciano replaced at LG with Boettger. Can't argue with the end results, but curious given that all seemed 'ok' before the switch. Methinks they wanted a vet making line calls against the patriots. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 8 hours ago, letsgoteam said: I've thought about it some (IDK the answer). I cant remember, was Bates starting before the injury to Morse? If so, here is my best guess. With Feliciano just coming back from injury (and I think I heard somewhere during the postgame show that it was possible he was going to be on a pitch count before the game started), would it be possible that Bates then would have been the only other player who could play C? If that's the case, maybe they put him on the bench after that series to prevent some kind of weird nightmare scenario where if Bates gets hurt and Feliciano gets hurt/reinjuried/pitchcount then they would be without a C. Bates was on the bench before Morse was injured I think it's this simple: Feliciano is a better center than Bates, and it's not close. Mongo was the backup center last year. He won out over the guy who was supposed to get the job, Bates, and it wasn't close. He said in his postgame interview that he loves to play center, that he relishes the pressure, he was the backup center in Oakland and he still prepares every week (in terms of film and game plan study, not practice snaps) as though he's the center. During that drive, it made sense to just make one substitution on the line instead of two. But afterwards, it made sense to put the best guys on the field. Possibly on the sidelines they each got a pop quiz on the protection calls and the game plan and Mongo >> Bates. They were planning to have Feliciano on a snap count, so they were planning to put Boettger in anyway. Maybe the trainers checked Mongo out a bit and said "yeah, he's doing OK, you can keep him out there" but truthfully - you would probably have needed the help of half our DL to pull him and keep him on the bench. 27 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said: Victory Monday! One thing I love to watch is anything postgame locker room speech related. I like to see the vibe of the room and wow were those Guys excited! (Oliver was jumpy! Mcd was going Hulkster for Zimmer) (....) Someone else mentioned on here, the execution has been a bit disappointing since Week 1-4. I agree 100 percent..We keep self inflicting little things that just frustrate the hell out of me. 3rd and 18, Oliver needs to know the down and situation and that you can't take a hands to the face penalty. Gabriel making that catch in the end zone probably deflates the Pats and puts this game out of reach. Cleaning these things up over the next 8 weeks might just mean the difference between moving on from one round to the next come playoff time .The little things take teams from being good to Great. -8 weeks to go, LETS GO!! I think one thing to remember is that we were still making a lot of mistakes, self-inflicted wounds, weeks 1-4 and the defense was porous. We gave up 410 yds to Miami, 478 to the Rams, and 383 yds to the Raiders. 7 penalties for 79 yards against the Jets; 5 for 81 yards against LA. -1 on TO vs MIA, -2 vs Rams. We were just explosive enough on offense to cover it. IMO, a lot of that explosiveness was offenses looking at Allen's film from last year and saying "yeah, OK, make him throw it deep, he can't". For the Rams, it was "yeah, he did it Game 1 and 2 but those were the Jets and Miami". After 4 weeks of that stuff it was "Well Then, Next Plan!" for Tennessee. After Tennessee, KC said "OK, this works - take away the deep stuff, play the soft zone and they can't run on it". What I'm anxious to see is whether we sold out our passing game in some sense to be able to run like that (analogous to how we sell out our passing game to stifle the run). Or was it just that Daboll naturally has a "low interest rate" when it comes to designing run plays and this week McDermott "Hulked" him and basically said, "We will Run the Ball, or You're going over the Falls - No Barrel." I get it that the weather made passing problematic - but are we going to be able to pull off a more balanced attack going forward? Speaking of balanced attack, we've got a real two-headed monster coming our way next week. So far we can stifle the passing game, but get run all over; or, we can stifle the run, and "bombs away!". Can we pull off a more balanced defense? 3 1
Lagoon Blues Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 8 hours ago, hemma said: I wonder if anyone has revisited enough of the game to have a solid guess as to why Bates was pulled for Feliciano at Center + Feliciano replaced at LG with Boettger. Can't argue with the end results, but curious given that all seemed 'ok' before the switch. Pure speculation on my part, but I had wondered if they didn't want the only other center on the field at all as a just in case kind of thing if Feliciano happened to go down also. 26 minutes ago, dneveu said: Methinks they wanted a vet making line calls against the patriots. Good call....seems more logical than what I had been thinking.
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lagoon Blues said: Pure speculation on my part, but I had wondered if they didn't want the only other center on the field at all as a just in case kind of thing if Feliciano happened to go down also. Good call....seems more logical than what I had been thinking. And they definitely messed with Feliciano. They ran several plays with no down linemen to disguise things. Not sure how the younger player handles that.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 1 minute ago, dneveu said: And they definitely messed with Feliciano. They ran several plays with no down linemen to disguise things. Not sure how the younger player handles that. I need to see the all-22 but Feliciano's response seemed to be "Crunchy! And Good with Ketsup!"
Shaw66 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Posted November 2, 2020 8 hours ago, BillsIsrael said: He's not playing like last year, don't know if it's health or what - maybe it's the lack of supporting cast, Milano is not 100% and Klein is a missed tackle waiting to happen I think it has to be his health. He got dinged again yesterday. He may not be back to full strength until next season. Milano, to. It would be nice to have the bye this week. As for Klein, I couldn't agree more. He doesn't look like he can tackle in the open field. He may be a straight-on run stuffer, but not a guy who can play in space.
Shaw66 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Posted November 2, 2020 56 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Bates was on the bench before Morse was injured I think it's this simple: Feliciano is a better center than Bates, and it's not close. Mongo was the backup center last year. He won out over the guy who was supposed to get the job, Bates, and it wasn't close. He said in his postgame interview that he loves to play center, that he relishes the pressure, he was the backup center in Oakland and he still prepares every week (in terms of film and game plan study, not practice snaps) as though he's the center. During that drive, it made sense to just make one substitution on the line instead of two. But afterwards, it made sense to put the best guys on the field. Possibly on the sidelines they each got a pop quiz on the protection calls and the game plan and Mongo >> Bates. They were planning to have Feliciano on a snap count, so they were planning to put Boettger in anyway. Maybe the trainers checked Mongo out a bit and said "yeah, he's doing OK, you can keep him out there" but truthfully - you would probably have needed the help of half our DL to pull him and keep him on the bench. I think one thing to remember is that we were still making a lot of mistakes, self-inflicted wounds, weeks 1-4 and the defense was porous. We gave up 410 yds to Miami, 478 to the Rams, and 383 yds to the Raiders. 7 penalties for 79 yards against the Jets; 5 for 81 yards against LA. -1 on TO vs MIA, -2 vs Rams. We were just explosive enough on offense to cover it. IMO, a lot of that explosiveness was offenses looking at Allen's film from last year and saying "yeah, OK, make him throw it deep, he can't". For the Rams, it was "yeah, he did it Game 1 and 2 but those were the Jets and Miami". After 4 weeks of that stuff it was "Well Then, Next Plan!" for Tennessee. After Tennessee, KC said "OK, this works - take away the deep stuff, play the soft zone and they can't run on it". What I'm anxious to see is whether we sold out our passing game in some sense to be able to run like that (analogous to how we sell out our passing game to stifle the run). Or was it just that Daboll naturally has a "low interest rate" when it comes to designing run plays and this week McDermott "Hulked" him and basically said, "We will Run the Ball, or You're going over the Falls - No Barrel." I get it that the weather made passing problematic - but are we going to be able to pull off a more balanced attack going forward? Speaking of balanced attack, we've got a real two-headed monster coming our way next week. So far we can stifle the passing game, but get run all over; or, we can stifle the run, and "bombs away!". Can we pull off a more balanced defense? Hap - There's a lot of good stuff in here. What you say about Feliciano sounds exactly right. He probably was the backup center all along, but when Morse went down in the middle of the drive it was simply "next man up." When the drive ended and they went to sideline, the coaches switched up to what they would have done if they had started the game without Morse. I don't think at all it's about selling out the passing game. I think what we're seeing around the league is that everyone has recognized that the defense has to sell out to stop the mid- and deep-passing threats. The Bills did it against KC. Everyone is doing it. The message around the league is that you MUST be able to play the run-and-possession passing game. Belichick watched the film, and he knew his offense. He knew that he was cooked if he got into a shootout with the Bills. It was, in a sense, Super Bowl XXV all over again. Same game plan. Stop the explosive passing and force the Bills to run the ball. On offense, run the hell out of the ball and try to run the clock. Reduce the number of possessions the Bills have to go off on you. Same plan. In both games, you keep the score close and try to steal the win in the end. It was wide right many years ago; it was a Newton fumble yesterday. You win some and lose some, but at least you're in the game at the end. McDermott's system is to build his team over the season. As I've said several times, that's especially true this year, with the shortened off-season and pre-season workouts. The Bills are learning how to play different styles. Every team is, but McDermott is good at building like this. It's what Belichick does, too. That's why we get these ugly games. But as others have said, his teams always have grit and determination. They stay in the game and they keep fighting. Zimmer's game-saving play is the kind of play that McDermott's system produces. His teams are full of guys who don't quit on the game. McDermott's season-plan is to win early-season games one way or another while the team is growing into an actually good team. He's succeeded this year, going 6-2 in the first half while trying to get his team up to a high level of play. Whether his team will get to that level is an open question - I certainly have my doubts. But after watching McD for a few seasons, I know not to give up on him. Finally, back to the passing game. One measure of Allen's growth as a field general is that he is not throwing deep against coverages designed to stop the deep ball. He won't. He understands his job and he executes. I watch other games, and these less mature QBs are bombing the ball out there against double coverage or even tight single coverage. It works sometimes, but sometimes it's a disaster. Allen doesn't do that any more. Allen's throwing the ball to guys who are open, who will catch, and who will have a chance to make a play after the catch. He looked at those seven defensive backs Belichick apparently had on the field often, and he knew to avoid the low-probability throws. Not that it's exactly and example, but I thought the pass that Davis dropped in the end zone was evidence of Allen's maturity. I don't know if he knew at the snap that that was where he had a shot at the TD, but he figured it out sometime. You could see him thinking and deciding to make that throw. It was a big-time QB play in crunch time. My only question is whether there was too much pace on it. It looked like Davis just couldn't handle the fastball, and a fastball might not have been necessary. Davis should be used to by now, but getting just the right touch on balls is a fine point that Allen will continue to work on. 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Finally, back to the passing game. One measure of Allen's growth as a field general is that he is not throwing deep against coverages designed to stop the deep ball. He won't. He understands his job and he executes. I watch other games, and these less mature QBs are bombing the ball out there against double coverage or even tight single coverage. It works sometimes, but sometimes it's a disaster. Allen doesn't do that any more. Allen's throwing the ball to guys who are open, who will catch, and who will have a chance to make a play after the catch. He looked at those seven defensive backs Belichick apparently had on the field often, and he knew to avoid the low-probability throws. Not that it's exactly and example, but I thought the pass that Davis dropped in the end zone was evidence of Allen's maturity. I don't know if he knew at the snap that that was where he had a shot at the TD, but he figured it out sometime. You could see him thinking and deciding to make that throw. It was a big-time QB play in crunch time. My only question is whether there was too much pace on it. It looked like Davis just couldn't handle the fastball, and a fastball might not have been necessary. Davis should be used to by now, but getting just the right touch on balls is a fine point that Allen will continue to work on. Exactly. More to the point - in the first half of the Tenn game and parts of the KC game and even a few throws of the Jets game - Allen DID try to force the ball out there, even into triple coverage on Diggs at least once that I saw. Then the light bulb turned on and he started to get it. You can kind of "read the tea leaves" of the expectations Daboll has for Josh from listening to his Monday pressers. He was pleased that Josh "got it" the second half against the Titans and overall not too worried about the KC game. He was somewhat frustrated with Josh in the Jets game because there were times when a safe throw to an open guy was there and Josh didn't pull the trigger, or where Josh should have checked to a different play and didn't. I think Daboll and Josh had a little bit of a "come to Jesus" meeting this week and Josh "Got It". I hadn't considered the impact of the balls Josh is throwing on Davis, and it's a good point. In the first 4 games, Josh generally had more time behind our OL and was able to throw with some touch. Since Tennessee, he's been under more pressure and it shows - he's throwing harder and with less touch, and a bit less accurately. Davis may need to work with the WR coaches and with the other WR to pick up his game on catching balls with more "mustard", and Josh needs to work on maintaining those touch throws when he has defenders in his face and at his feet. 1
Figster Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Plus he actually hit some people. There's more Edmunds hate around here than he deserves. 12 hours ago, BillsIsrael said: He's not playing like last year, don't know if it's health or what - maybe it's the lack of supporting cast, Milano is not 100% and Klein is a missed tackle waiting to happen I think theres an important distinction to be made about hating a player vs critique on how a player is playing. After going back and removing some of my posts last night on this thread then the Edmunds thread. I thought to myself, I was looking for feedback. So I tried to ask a couple of our TBD on board game analysts. (I like to call them) When a player becomes a Bill they are like family to me. Even after their gone I never stop rooting for them. When a player has played below his capabilities for a long length of time then it begs to ask the question why. Or how much this players play changes the dynamics around him. So just to be clear a critique on a player doesn't always equate to hate. I'm sure others feel the same... Edited November 2, 2020 by Figster
Shaw66 Posted November 2, 2020 Author Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Figster said: So just to be clear a critique on a player doesn't always equate to hate. I'm sure others feel the same... You're being too literal. When people use "hate" as I did, it doesn't mean hate in the sense of hatred. I agree, there are very few people here who actually hate Edmunds. When someone says there's hate on this message board, that means to me that there is a negative reaction to that player's contribution to the team that usually is more negative that is warranted. There was a lot of hate here last season for Star,. Fair amount of hate here this year for Barkley as a backup. In that sense, there's been a lot of hate for Edmunds this season. He isn't performing as well as people hoped/expected, and you see people posting that if he doesn't do this or that, he should be cut or traded or something. There's plenty to critique in his play, for sure, and I've been doing that pretty regularly for most of the season. Edited November 3, 2020 by Shaw66 1
Figster Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: You're being too literal. When people use "hate" as I did, it doesn't mean hate in the sense of hatred. I agree, there are very few people here who actually hate Edmunds. When someone says there's hate on this message board, that means to me that there is a negative reaction to that player's contribution to the team that usually is more negative that is warranted. There was a lot of hate here last season for Star, hate here last season for Star. Fair amount of hate here this year for Barkley as a backup. In that sense, there's been a lot of hate for Edmunds this season. He isn't performing as well as people hoped/expected, and you see people posting that if he doesn't do this or that, he should be cut or traded or something. There's plenty to critique in his play, for sure, and I've been doing that pretty regularly for most of the season. Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately I feel like its become somewhat of a convenient and lazy way for some people to lump everyone who critiques up into one category. Haters are going to hate for lack of a better way of putting it. Instead of discussing the elephant in the room. With all due respect Shaw, Thanks again for explaining yourself, I understand... Edited November 2, 2020 by Figster
Shaw66 Posted November 3, 2020 Author Posted November 3, 2020 6 hours ago, Figster said: Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately I feel like its become somewhat of a convenient and lazy way for some people to lump everyone who critiques up into one category. Haters are going to hate for lack of a better way of putting it. Instead of discussing the elephant in the room. With all due respect Shaw, Thanks again for explaining yourself, I understand... Gotta say I don't use "haters" much. When I used it here, I certainly wasn't intending to include anyone who criticizes Tremaine. It was more of an "if the shoe fits, wear it" kind of comment. 1
Figster Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 38 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Gotta say I don't use "haters" much. When I used it here, I certainly wasn't intending to include anyone who criticizes Tremaine. It was more of an "if the shoe fits, wear it" kind of comment. We definitely have enough Edmunds critique going on around here. I was happy to remove some of mine.
Stroke 17 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 i am happy with the win, check that I am really f***ing happy with the win over the Pats and I dont care who is or is not on the team. Now, to my concern. the first three games of the season the offense seemed it couldn't be stopped. Receivers always seemed to be open and Josh seemed to find the the guy that was the most open. Josh seemed to be care free and playing like he was having fun slinging it around. Then when the team went to Tennessee it seemed to change. I sensed Josh had changed, he seemed hesitant, measured, and looked really serious unlike the happy go lucky guy of the early season. Just curious as to what others think? The offense and the passing game is not the same. Is it the play calling, the QB, the receivers or have defenses figured out the scheme. Something has changed. i want my early season offense back, where did it go?
Saxum Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 16 hours ago, Kwai San said: THIS......I would rather folks beat up Klein than Edmunds......Klein is stealing money out there.....needs to be dropped asap. If you let him go during year he gets paid anyways. $11,300,000 is guaranteed. Have him play on special teams if needed but no sense throwing away money.
Kwai San Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 6 hours ago, Limeaid said: If you let him go during year he gets paid anyways. $11,300,000 is guaranteed. Have him play on special teams if needed but no sense throwing away money. Ouch - I was unaware it for that much - UGH! Good work to stand around and get pushed around.....
Billsfan1972 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 8 hours ago, Stroke 17 said: i am happy with the win, check that I am really f***ing happy with the win over the Pats and I dont care who is or is not on the team. Now, to my concern. the first three games of the season the offense seemed it couldn't be stopped. Receivers always seemed to be open and Josh seemed to find the the guy that was the most open. Josh seemed to be care free and playing like he was having fun slinging it around. Then when the team went to Tennessee it seemed to change. I sensed Josh had changed, he seemed hesitant, measured, and looked really serious unlike the happy go lucky guy of the early season. Just curious as to what others think? The offense and the passing game is not the same. Is it the play calling, the QB, the receivers or have defenses figured out the scheme. Something has changed. i want my early season offense back, where did it go? I am an Allen fan & thus unequivocally blame it on McD and a change in philosophy. When things go well this team is fun to watch, but then they too go into a shell and it seemd the first four weeks they had figured it out. Tennessee the int on the first possession tahnks to a drop and the team mentally didn't recover. Three & out vs. KC when Brown drops a third down pass right between his #'s and then the O stalls. I see this too often from McD. He thinks his Defense will create turnovers, bail them out, come up with stops and has regressed to playing the game between the 20's. Sure the run was working vs. NE, but only 18 passes in a tight game???? Could you imagine Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers or any great QB and only 18 passes in a game where you never led by more then 7? That is McD. Sure windy so maybe no long passes, but they haven't thrown long much at all since week 4. And we've seen plenty of drops too.
Stroke 17 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said: I am an Allen fan & thus unequivocally blame it on McD and a change in philosophy. When things go well this team is fun to watch, but then they too go into a shell and it seemd the first four weeks they had figured it out. Tennessee the int on the first possession tahnks to a drop and the team mentally didn't recover. Three & out vs. KC when Brown drops a third down pass right between his #'s and then the O stalls. I see this too often from McD. He thinks his Defense will create turnovers, bail them out, come up with stops and has regressed to playing the game between the 20's. Sure the run was working vs. NE, but only 18 passes in a tight game???? Could you imagine Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers or any great QB and only 18 passes in a game where you never led by more then 7? That is McD. Sure windy so maybe no long passes, but they haven't thrown long much at all since week 4. And we've seen plenty of drops too. I seem to agree, the coaching staff seem to get a bit spooked when things aren't perfect. I need/ want the offense and Josh to get it up and passing again. If defenses have figured out the Bills offense then it is up to the coaching staff to figure out ways to get it done. With this QB and the receivers he now has he should be put into a position to be like other young QB and offenses in the league, On a final note, I want the Bills coaches to have a mentality that its never enough, always try to get more, kick em when they're down. I remember back in the 90's there was an older mild mannered grandmother who sat behind me, ( Sec H, Row 2, Aisle 2) no matter how many points the Bills were up, no matter how much time left in the game she would stand up and scream at the top of her lungs, "MORE POINTS< DAMIT< MORE POINTS"
Recommended Posts