Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 2, 2020 Author Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Johnny Hammersticks said: I am aware of the flaws of PFF grades, but I did not know about the challenges of grading the offensive linemen based on what you describe here. Thank you for sharing. Still, I find it interesting that Boettger (not Feliciano or Dawkins) graded the highest. I didn’t even really notice Boettger yesterday, while I did notice Feliciano, Dawkins and even Winters making several outstanding plays. Maybe not an accurate ranking, but perhaps a sign that he didn’t make too many glaring mistakes. It was very nice to see the line FINALLY get some push and win many of those battles in the trenches yesterday. Yeah, that piece with Woods was very interesting. He gave a couple specific examples. One I remember was a play where Incognito completely whiffed on a block that fell to him; Wood tried to block the guy but was out of position and lost him. He said something to the effect of "we laughed about it afterwards - as one does when the pass is completed - that they'd tag me with that in the grades, and sure enough they did". (I had a quick look and couldn't find it) The take-home message to me was that on the lines specifically (each side of the ball), when Bill or Betty Sofasitter is watching and seeing a player whiff on a block or a tackle, we don't always know what just happened because we don't know who was supposed to pick up that block or make that tackle. On the other hand to your point - it's not impossible that possibly part of the giant sucking sound that LG has been with all 3 of the guys who've manned it to date, had to do in part with the guy on their R. I hope not, because I'd like to think we could get Morse and Ford back and keep Feliciano and have an improved DL going into the 2nd half of the season. I would love to be a fly on the wall of the coach's room and the OL meeting and know what really went down because all we heard coming into the season was how valuable it would be to have continuity on the OL of Dawkins-Spain-Morse-Feliciano-Ford. Feliciano went out before training camp, but the rest of the "continuity" made it through what? 1 game?
BUFFALOTONE Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Josh was asked post-game about the challenge of having Feliciano, who hadn't played at all preseason or this season, slide over to Center. He said he hadn't taken a snap with him in practice. His answer was that they get along really well (or are really comfortable) off the field and that translates onto the field. I was wondering if anyone who's played or who knows someone who's played QB or center could comment on why getting along or being comfortable with someone would help the QB-center exchange? I would have thought it would be a physical skill that like any other physical skill, takes practice to perfect? I played center for 3 years and guard for 1. Its a credit to how well they did together once Morse went down. More for continuity throughout the line but it seemed like the exchanges were clean. Id say cadence and timing are a huge thing to replicate without practice. While under center, he could give a tap for a silent count that a replacement player wouldn't pick up etc...
dollars 2 donuts Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Josh was asked post-game about the challenge of having Feliciano, who hadn't played at all preseason or this season, slide over to Center. He said he hadn't taken a snap with him in practice. His answer was that they get along really well (or are really comfortable) off the field and that translates onto the field. I was wondering if anyone who's played or who knows someone who's played QB or center could comment on why getting along or being comfortable with someone would help the QB-center exchange? I would have thought it would be a physical skill that like any other physical skill, takes practice to perfect? 18 hours ago, wvbillsfan said: I played a little qb all the way till senior year in high school. It’s not bad if the center snaps or the same way. Some centers at least at lower levels turn the ball as the snap it with the ends of the ball facing the sidelines. Haven’t seen that in the pros Most centers just snap straight back with the ends of the ball facing each end zone Under center I never had to adjust really. Shotgun is a different animal entirely tho. Different guys send the ball at different speeds and some aren’t very consistent with where it goes. 18 hours ago, Simon said: Because he has to jam his knuckle in his perineum. I'm guessing a previous comfort level would be an advantage there ; -) 18 hours ago, ClemsonBills said: It matters. This is coming from someone who played center. Gotta have that trust I briefly played center in my early years in high school, but mostly as a back up. I was primarily a guard. Holy mackerel it does matter. When you think about it this may be one of the closest exchanges in sports and it happens very quickly. You have to know, you have to trust, and it has to be just right for the qb, or...trouble. Side note, the qb complained at the time when I would come in to practice that the snap and exchange was hurting his hand. This resulted in me having to snap to 2 different coaches a number of times to determine what was going on or what I was doing that was bugging or hurting him. What was going on? My cup was too pointy to them, so I had to switch. The things you do for team work. Edited November 2, 2020 by dollars 2 donuts 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 2, 2020 Author Posted November 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said: I briefly played center in my early years in high school, but mostly as a back up. I was primarily a guard. Holy mackerel it does matter. When you think about it this may be one of the closest exchanges in sports and it happens very quickly. You have to know, you have to trust, and it has to be just right for the qb, or...trouble. Side note, the qb complained at the time when I would come in to practice that the snap and exchange was hurting his hand. This resulted in me having to snap to 2 different coaches a number of times to determine what was going on or what I was doing that was bugging or hurting him. What was going on? My cup was too pointy to them, so I had to switch. The things you do for team work. LOL great story It's my understanding these days NFL players don't wear cups. Truth. So Simon's description of knuckle-in-the-taint is apparently on the money. So to speak This is a few years old but: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10080358/flem-file-players-reluctance-wearing-cups-baffling 1
dollars 2 donuts Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: LOL great story It's my understanding these days NFL players don't wear cups. Truth. So Simon's description of knuckle-in-the-taint is apparently on the money. So to speak This is a few years old but: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10080358/flem-file-players-reluctance-wearing-cups-baffling Good to know and..brave of them. My situation is going back almost 35 years. Even back then I knew I had...well, responsibilities going forward in my life that would mandate a sense of "protective urgency" in the governing of my self preservation. Edited November 2, 2020 by dollars 2 donuts
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 2, 2020 Author Posted November 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said: Good to know and..brave of them. My situation is going back almost 35 years. Even back then I knew I had...well, responsibilities going forward in my life that would mandate a sense of "protective urgency" in the governing of my self preservation. LOL I've noticed that NFL players for the most part seem especially delighted to have babies...maybe it's those years of placing their procreative abilities at risk, so to speak 1
Augie Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 5 hours ago, Johnny Hammersticks said: I would tend to agree with this, but I’m no expert on o-line play. Bates looked just fine at C, and the Feliciano/Dawkins combo on the left side is absolutely ferocious. I can’t speak to the center exchange (I’m just glad it didn’t lead to troubles), but it sure was nice to have Feliciano out there shoving people around again! Being able to run the ball was a treat to watch. Hope for a full and speedy recovery for Morse so we don’t have to worry about it, but his history concerns me. Banging heads is a job requirement. At least we have a week to get some reps in and get comfortable.
smuvtalker Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 I played RG from my sophomore year of college til graduation. I can honestly say that having a positive relationship with my QB, for me personally, motivated me to block better for him. Not to say that I didn't do my job no matter who was behind center, but when the QB and I were friends, it made my job just a little bit more important. And same with the RB. I used to block for Kevan Barlow, and he and I were roommates. I didn't mind pulling, and knocking heads off to pave the way for him. Just my two cents.
Monty98 Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 Playing C through my years of football, having some sort of comfort level with the QB is massive. If I know how he is pre-snap or what he's looking for I can call out certain things like blitz reads or blocking changes. Specially in gun I can help my line while he can focus on his pre-snap reads. 1
chaccof Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 4 hours ago, Bob in STL said: Agree. I played some center. There, is timing, feel ( no jokes) and trust on assignments and line calls. In the shotgun it makes a bigger difference in accuracy and speed. "Feel" taint no joke brother....
John from Riverside Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 19 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Josh was asked post-game about the challenge of having Feliciano, who hadn't played at all preseason or this season, slide over to Center. He said he hadn't taken a snap with him in practice. His answer was that they get along really well (or are really comfortable) off the field and that translates onto the field. I was wondering if anyone who's played or who knows someone who's played QB or center could comment on why getting along or being comfortable with someone would help the QB-center exchange? I would have thought it would be a physical skill that like any other physical skill, takes practice to perfect? I have played the lines and coached some at a small college. A bad handoff can be disastrous.....and witht he QB it is all about his comfort level as he is the tip of the spear.......he is the franchise....and the coaches are gonna make that switch. My problem with it is I actually like the OL he switched out and put on the bench where as Boagner (sp) is a VERY average OL......I feel they are strong unit by keeping Mongo at OG especially as it is his first game back. I would not have done it......but....its not make call....thankfully it worked out. Also....I think we might have seen the last of Morse.....its what...5 concussions now?
artmalibu Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 I played center in high school. I can say I had no problems once I got to work with a qb a bit. Different qbs have different hand placements, but not enough different to cause trouble. I found the biggest issue is that some qbs like the laces in a different spot when snapped.
marky Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 The center is going to be at least a half step behind because of the snap exchange. Whether the defense covers the center or not determines the strategy, 3-4 vs 4-3. It's one of the few natural points of leverage in the game, like the QB blind side, and the 11 vs. 10 if you count the QB out of the play. Besides the snap, the big thing are the steps. Step too deep, the center trips his own QB and sacks him. Consistency is big on the oline and inches count. QBs get a feel for the pocket. RBs can get a feel of the blockers. Staying healthy all season is a lot more important than athleticism, second only to not taking penalties. A pre-snap routine is big too. Linemen murmur their own version of the play call, simplifying the playbook. They watch for substitutions too. There's little physical cues for remembering the snap count from the huddle to the line. There are calls at the line which even account for the secondary coverage.
Jauronimo Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: LOL great story It's my understanding these days NFL players don't wear cups. Truth. So Simon's description of knuckle-in-the-taint is apparently on the money. So to speak This is a few years old but: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10080358/flem-file-players-reluctance-wearing-cups-baffling A cup doesn't protect your taint unless you have an abnormally small grundle like Trent Edwards 1
artmalibu Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: A cup doesn't protect your taint unless you have an abnormally small grundle like Trent Edwards I stopped wearing a cup when I started playing center. With a cup bringing the ball up would smash the cup into my nuts making me see stars. 1
TwistofFate Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 I would say it had to do predominantly with line calls. The center makes the line calls on pre-snap protections. Allen may have been more confident in his ability than Bates. 1
frostbitmic Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 Feliciano started a number of games at Center last year so Allen had a lot of practice time with him. Bates, being a backup probably gets most of his practice time with the backup QB and little time with Allen.
formerlyofCtown Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 23 hours ago, billsherd said: You didn't like it? Did it cause more fumbles? No but he got really uncomfortable wearing a cup all of the sudden.
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 22 hours ago, Doc said: We'll agree to disagree. Bates' only action in the game was that first drive after Morse went down, and the team proceeded to drive 64 yards and score a TD. And the combination of Feliciano at LG and Bates at C is better than Boettger at LG and Feliciano at C. Small sample size. I think they trust Feliciano with line calls as he did it some last year. 21 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: How can I put this politely: PFF does some things well. Grading offensive line isn't one of those things. Grading individual players on offensive line without knowledge of their actual assignment on each play, is a total joke. Eric Wood did a piece on this shortly after he retired where he went through a couple of plays and explained what they really were and how they were graded by the analytics folks and how far off it was from the coaches internal evaluation. I did think Ike had a nice game though honestly. I think his run blocking is a reason he may have passed Spain on the depth chart.
warrior9 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 I played QB in college. QB-> center exchange is very important (like mentioned) more under center than shotgun. It's definitely a comfortability thing and knowing where the center like the snap the ball. A few inches off it could result in fumbles constantly. Some centers want your hands extremely far up, some want your hands further back. I don't recall a ton of under center when Mongo was in though.
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