All-22 Grades for Bills/Chiefs (The Athletic)

[Mango]

Allen’s ball placement seems to have regressed the last two weeks. Other than that I have two major thoughts on him this year. 
 

Pro: his pocket presence has been remarkable. I’m very impressed. He doesn’t get enough praise for the leap he’s made in it this year. 
 

Con: he holds onto the ball too long. I get we run a lot of downfield patterns, he can make extend plus, looking for the big play, etc. But dude, it’s ok to hit a 3-5 step drop at the top. We almost never see it. 

[BillsfaninSB]

12 hours ago, BuffaloMatt said:

KC lost to the raiders without Jones in lineup. He was the true gamechanger in this one. Bills don't have that on D and we better make some moves to get an edge rusher and/or a Big DT to plug the middle. If not NE could have a field day with us running that power run game with cam, white and burkhead. 

Pretty sure he played against the Raiders.  I think he missed the Patriots game. 

[SCBills]

15 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting!

 

As for Allen, its not unusual to see a QB have some overthrow issues early in a big game like that. Lots of QB's have that issue at times and he did get better as the game went on. I still feel there was just far, far to much responsibility of winning the game on his shoulders with very little from the Bills run game a horrid showing from the Buffalo defense.

 

That one play where Allen read the defense and made a call to change the play to find Diggs in man on the outside drew a PI penalty, rightfully so. Then, the most beautiful TD pass and catch by Diggs that was just amazing.

 

The game could have been won with 6 min left "IF" the Bills defense could have made a freaking stop. JMO

 

 

His best throw was the scramble bomb to Diggs in the back of the end zone.  Would’ve been a tough catch, but a catch that I’ve seen made. 
 

Diggs hauls that in and it’s a WOW throw on every show. 
 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by SCBills

[BuffaloMatt]

7 hours ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Pretty sure he played against the Raiders.  I think he missed the Patriots game. 

I think you are right. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Pretty sure he played against the Raiders.  I think he missed the Patriots game. 

 

Chris Jones?  You are correct. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, Mango said:

Allen’s ball placement seems to have regressed the last two weeks. Other than that I have two major thoughts on him this year. 
 

Pro: his pocket presence has been remarkable. I’m very impressed. He doesn’t get enough praise for the leap he’s made in it this year. 
 

Con: he holds onto the ball too long. I get we run a lot of downfield patterns, he can make extend plus, looking for the big play, etc. But dude, it’s ok to hit a 3-5 step drop at the top. We almost never see it. 

 

So there's a couple things.  One, I think the L shoulder injury is affecting Allen's throwing motion.  Just a little bit, and more early in games than later.  FWIW Bangedup thinks so too.  He may need a more extended warmup, a pain shot given a bit earlier, a warm wrap or a set of motion exercises to keep it loose during the pregram schtuff.   Another thing that can help is to visualize the pass while slowly going through the correct motions he needs and kind of training the mind to accept as "right" any pain or soreness at different points.  Kubiak counted 6 misfires from Allen during the game.  2 of them were the first 2 passes, and if I'm not mistaken most of the rest were early on as well.

 

Second, he's been under more pressure and having to decode more confusing defenses the last two games, and he's both hesitating just a little bit sometimes, while at others he's throwing just a bit before he wants to and just a bit off his platform.  Meanwhile in the KC game, their secondary was playing an extremely physical game.  Having the receivers held a bit and not quite able to get to the right spot, while Allen is throwing a bit early and a bit off, is the difference between an easy completion and a challenging catch or a one-hander.

 

Mostly, Allen still simply won't take the checkdown.  TAKE THE CHECKDOWN JOSH!  Sometimes his checkdown has so much freakin' cushion, I swear they could run into the next state.

 

But otherwise - WTF is this "regression" schtuff?  Allen is still firing deadly accurate throws and throwing with anticipation at other times - throws he would never have attempted last year, or would have badly missed if he did.  KC tried out a bit of Blitz Zero against Allen.  Two TDs were the result, one on a PI that prevented a completion to Diggs and one on a deadly-accurate laser to a well-covered Beasley.

I strongly recommend this analysis by TBN's Jim Kubiak.  He does a really good job of pointing out the good plays and the missed opportunities.  [And anyone who wants to sneer at Kubiak as "a navy QB" can just Bite Me, K?  Tom Brady said Bianca Wilfork "knows her stuff" and she never played a snap.  Not aimed at you, Mango]

My bottom line: is Allen "it", developed, The Man now?  No, more work still needed.

 

Is he "regressing" either in his pocket presence, his decision making, or his throwing ability?  I don't think so.  I think he's suffering a bit from the injury in the Raiders game and maybe still early on in big games, some nerves...I think physical play both up front and against our WR hamper him.  But  a lot of the development we saw in the first 4 games is still there.

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Is anyone more pissed off now than earlier in the week? I am after reading this. I was working on Pacific coast so I only caught the tail end of the game. I was happy to see Murphy benched but couldn't understand the Phillips benching.  Now reading that Oliver played the majority of 1 tech snaps makes me even more infuriated. McD and Frazier were completely outcoached. Phillips was not playing great but he was at least able to take a bunch of the work at the 1 tech. Moving Oliver to the 1 weakened the entire line. Stupid bad coaching. I've made no secret I don't like McDermott. He preaches continuous improvement and getting better, but he is the one that is not getting better. Ughh!!!!!

[Mr. WEO]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:06 AM, Gugny said:

Admittedly, I am far from an expert when it comes to defenses and where players play.

 

My questions:

 

Is this a Frazier problem or is it a McDermott problem?

And/or - is this a Beane problem because we don't have the right (or right kinds of) players on the roster?

 

Thank you!

 

There's no chance it was Frazier's decision alone to bench the DT's before that game.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

28 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

There's no chance it was Frazier's decision alone to bench the DT's before that game.

Agreed

[TigerJ]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:12 AM, Royale with Cheese said:

Can someone explain to me how Vernon Butler at 330 lbs isn't a one technique?  Joe B said we didn't dress a single one technique.

Same reason Jordan Phillips isn't a 1 tech, I guess.  

[Mango]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So there's a couple things.  One, I think the L shoulder injury is affecting Allen's throwing motion.  Just a little bit, and more early in games than later.  FWIW Bangedup thinks so too.  He may need a more extended warmup, a pain shot given a bit earlier, a warm wrap or a set of motion exercises to keep it loose during the pregram schtuff.   Another thing that can help is to visualize the pass while slowly going through the correct motions he needs and kind of training the mind to accept as "right" any pain or soreness at different points.  Kubiak counted 6 misfires from Allen during the game.  2 of them were the first 2 passes, and if I'm not mistaken most of the rest were early on as well.

 

Second, he's been under more pressure and having to decode more confusing defenses the last two games, and he's both hesitating just a little bit sometimes, while at others he's throwing just a bit before he wants to and just a bit off his platform.  Meanwhile in the KC game, their secondary was playing an extremely physical game.  Having the receivers held a bit and not quite able to get to the right spot, while Allen is throwing a bit early and a bit off, is the difference between an easy completion and a challenging catch or a one-hander.

 

Mostly, Allen still simply won't take the checkdown.  TAKE THE CHECKDOWN JOSH!  Sometimes his checkdown has so much freakin' cushion, I swear they could run into the next state.

 

But otherwise - WTF is this "regression" schtuff?  Allen is still firing deadly accurate throws and throwing with anticipation at other times - throws he would never have attempted last year, or would have badly missed if he did.  KC tried out a bit of Blitz Zero against Allen.  Two TDs were the result, one on a PI that prevented a completion to Diggs and one on a deadly-accurate laser to a well-covered Beasley.

I strongly recommend this analysis by TBN's Jim Kubiak.  He does a really good job of pointing out the good plays and the missed opportunities.  [And anyone who wants to sneer at Kubiak as "a navy QB" can just Bite Me, K?  Tom Brady said Bianca Wilfork "knows her stuff" and she never played a snap.  Not aimed at you, Mango]

My bottom line: is Allen "it", developed, The Man now?  No, more work still needed.

 

Is he "regressing" either in his pocket presence, his decision making, or his throwing ability?  I don't think so.  I think he's suffering a bit from the injury in the Raiders game and maybe still early on in big games, some nerves...I think physical play both up front and against our WR hamper him.  But  a lot of the development we saw in the first 4 games is still there.

 

 

 

Dude, you took one small criticism and ran away like a freight train. You referenced a bunch of stuff I didn’t even talk about. Not well measured. I’m not even sure you read my post. You may want to go back and check. 

 

Yes Allens ball placement has regressed the last two weeks. TN was worse than LV, and KC was worse than TN. That’s about as clear as that gets with what I meant vs the definition of the word. I thought that was pretty well agreed upon. I didn’t get into why.  But I can get behind that his non throwing shoulder may be making that worse. But we also have two seasons with a healthy non-throwing shoulder with similar issues. So I am trying to figure out what’s pattern and what’s new. It’s why I didn’t go into detail, but you did. 

 

You specifically asked me how I felt about his pocket presence. I listed it as a pro. People don’t talk about it enough. 

 

Im hoping you had a couple pops before you wrote this one because it seems a bit out of character. My post was a total of like 9 sentences, 3 bullet points, and you basically misinterpreted all of it because I said ball placement ha regressed the last two weeks. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Dude, you took one small criticism and ran away like a freight train. You referenced a bunch of stuff I didn’t even talk about. Not well measured. I’m not even sure you read my post. You may want to go back and check. 

 

Yes Allens ball placement has regressed the last two weeks. TN was worse than LV, and KC was worse than TN. That’s about as clear as that gets with what I meant vs the definition of the word. I thought that was pretty well agreed upon. I didn’t get into why.  But I can get behind that his non throwing shoulder may be making that worse. But we also have two seasons with a healthy non-throwing shoulder with similar issues. So I am trying to figure out what’s pattern and what’s new. It’s why I didn’t go into detail, but you did. 

 

You specifically asked me how I felt about his pocket presence. I listed it as a pro. People don’t talk about it enough. 

 

Im hoping you had a couple pops before you wrote this one because it seems a bit out of character. My post was a total of like 9 sentences, 3 bullet points, and you basically misinterpreted all of it because I said ball placement ha regressed the last two weeks. 

 

 

 

I think you're taking a response in a thread much, much too personally, Mango.  No Bueno.  People respond all the time in threads with what interests THEM to talk about.  There's no reason to take it as a critique of what you wrote - or as grounds to criticize THEM for not limiting themselves to what you wrote. 

 

On the other hand, when you mention "regression in ball placement", it's fair game to respond with all of one's thoughts, and that's what I did.  Why take it so personally as entirely directed at you?

 

And where on earth did I, specifically, ask you about Allen's pocket presence?  I do not believe I did any such thing.  I think you may be confused.

 

The personal crack at me "I hope you had a couple pops before you wrote this" seems uncivil and totally uncalled for.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 10/23/2020 at 12:47 PM, Stank_Nasty said:

An interesting tidbit about the “missed” throw to Motor. Chris Simms was breaking down the game the other day and said “Singletary f***** him over” on that play. I guess it’s well understood that was gonna be and should have been a wheel route and in that situation. Simms claimed Allen put that ball exactly where it should have been. I found that interesting. I know at the time I was super annoyed by that miss. 

 

Interesting - do you happen to have a link?

 

This is one reason I just loathe commentators pronouncing a throw inaccurate.  We can sometimes tell by Allen's body language that a ball didn't go where he wanted or by a receiver's body language that the miss was on him, but other times we have no idea.

[Stank_Nasty]

54 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Interesting - do you happen to have a link?

 

This is one reason I just loathe commentators pronouncing a throw inaccurate.  We can sometimes tell by Allen's body language that a ball didn't go where he wanted or by a receiver's body language that the miss was on him, but other times we have no idea.

 

10:50 mark he starts talking Allen and his throws 

[BigDingus]

On 10/23/2020 at 8:07 AM, HappyDays said:

 

A few snippets:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Top 5 grades: Zimmer, Butler, Morse, Beasley, Allen

 

Bottom 5 grades: Edmunds, Winters, Jefferson, Ford, Klein

 

I agree on the overall message regarding Allen, but I don't see how he wasn't one of the main reasons we were poor on offense the majority of the game. He was 9 for 22 & had only 66 yards passing mid-late in the 4th quarter... he was a primary reason we weren't getting those 1st downs, not extending drives, not scoring, and sending our defense back on the field quickly after they just came off (and god knows we didn't want them back out there).

It felt like Tyrod in his last season here. Defense played poorly & was exhausted, but when they would finally manage to make a stop, the offense just went out there for a minute or 2, then sent the D right back out there to continue getting pummeled. 

Again, I don't think this shows Allen is bad all of a sudden...but accurate passing clearly would've made a big difference (as would catching the ball when they are good passes).

[Da webster guy]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:33 AM, zevo said:

The bomb to Diggs in the endzone was a dime and a game changer...I believe there was one other deep shot that went to brown that was there as well

An insanely difficult pass and Josh dropped it in perfectly.  Uncharacteristically, Diggs had no separation.   

The one thing that may have caused the drop was Diggs' concern with the field goal post which was a factor on that play.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

 

10:50 mark he starts talking Allen and his throws 

 

Wow, @Stank_Nasty, what a find! 

 

The most interesting part to me is the beginning where he talks about the Chiefs offense and the Bills defense. Wow.  He does not mince words

 

Don't hold back, Chris Simms, tell me what you really think.  He does not mince words talking about Buffalo's defense.  He says point blank "their Defense sucks.  It's not talented. It's not creative".  Says the Bills offense has to carry the team.  Said "nobody on the front seven is worth a damn" in Buffalo.  Said we were continually in some defensive alignments where "I don't even know how you stop this run in this alignment"

 

Stat I hadn't realized: 46 rushing attempts and 245 yds rushing most ever for Andy Reid.  Said over and over again the Chiefs used the same play as the Rams had run with success against the Bills, which he describes as zone to the right, someone behind the LOS, cut back.  Said the nickel back Taron Johnson and Jordon Poyer were "too often" left as the key defenders, which is "never a good thing" when your nickel corner and safety are making most of the tackles.

 

Said on the Kelce TD, it was a totally busted coverage by AJ Klein, that he was playing 10 yds out of position and the Bills coaches were yelling at Tre' White, not realizing it was Klein who was all messed up.

 

His part about the Bills offense was also good, but not as jaw-dropping in frankness.  He talked about some of Josh Allen's early misses and yeah, the part about how Singletary used body language that told Josh he was running a wheel route and then cut the the flat (that was a problem last year, as well, not so much with Bease and Brown but everyone else - Daboll's offense explicitly calls for the QB to read the receiver's body language to tell what route they will run).  Disappointing.

Anyway, his conclusion was that the Bills might want to rethink running the "slow death" defense, maybe they'd be better off saying "OK, he's gonna score a TD, do it fast and get Allen and Diggs back out here".

I need to find this and listen to it more often, too often these commentators mince words but Simms really lays it out.

Agree or disagree, totally worth a listen, 10/10

 

 

[Stank_Nasty]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wow, @Stank_Nasty, what a find! 

 

The most interesting part to me is the beginning where he talks about the Chiefs offense and the Bills defense. Wow.  He does not mince words

 

Don't hold back, Chris Simms, tell me what you really think.  He does not mince words talking about Buffalo's defense.  He says point blank "their Defense sucks.  It's not talented. It's not creative".  Says the Bills offense has to carry the team.  Said "nobody on the front seven is worth a damn" in Buffalo.  Said we were continually in some defensive alignments where "I don't even know how you stop this run in this alignment"

 

Stat I hadn't realized: 46 rushing attempts and 245 yds rushing most ever for Andy Reid.  Said over and over again the Chiefs used the same play as the Rams had run with success against the Bills, which he describes as zone to the right, someone behind the LOS, cut back.  Said the nickel back Taron Johnson and Jordon Poyer were "too often" left as the key defenders, which is "never a good thing" when your nickel corner and safety are making most of the tackles.

 

Said on the Kelce TD, it was a totally busted coverage by AJ Klein, that he was playing 10 yds out of position and the Bills coaches were yelling at Tre' White, not realizing it was Klein who was all messed up.

 

His part about the Bills offense was also good, but not as jaw-dropping in frankness.  He talked about some of Josh Allen's early misses and yeah, the part about how Singletary used body language that told Josh he was running a wheel route and then cut the the flat (that was a problem last year, as well, not so much with Bease and Brown but everyone else - Daboll's offense explicitly calls for the QB to read the receiver's body language to tell what route they will run).  Disappointing.

Anyway, his conclusion was that the Bills might want to rethink running the "slow death" defense, maybe they'd be better off saying "OK, he's gonna score a TD, do it fast and get Allen and Diggs back out here".

I need to find this and listen to it more often, too often these commentators mince words but Simms really lays it out.

Agree or disagree, totally worth a listen, 10/10

 

 

I try to catch him weekly. He’s been all in on McDermott, Allen, and the Bills since offseason of 2019. But I truly enjoy his stuff because of what you just described. He never holds back the good OR the bad. Very direct. It’s refreshing. He’ll heap praise when it’s there to heap and then the next week say the exact same dude left something to be desired. 
 

It’s really saying something if Simms is ripping the defense and the coaching of it because he has praised them routinely over the last 2 years. 
 

FWIW I totally agree with him on the D. Not only is it a leaky sieve but the creative looks we’ve seen in the past seem to be gone. What a mess. I agree, if you aren’t gonna be able to stop anyone take some freaking chances and increase your odds of maybe making a big play or 2. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Stank_Nasty

[BigDingus]

39 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I try to catch him weekly. He’s been all in on McDermott, Allen, and the Bills since offseason of 2019. But I truly enjoy his stuff because of what you just described. He never holds back the good OR the bad. Very direct. It’s refreshing. He’ll heap praise when it’s there to heap and then the next week say the exact same dude left something to be desired. 
 

It’s really saying something if Simms is ripping the defense and the coaching of it because he has praised them routinely over the last 2 years. 
 

FWIW I totally agree with him on the D. Not only is it a leaky sieve but the creative looks we’ve seen in the past seem to be gone. What a mess. I agree, if you aren’t gonna be able to stop anyone take some freaking chances and increase your odds of maybe making a big play or 2. 

 

If Simms is ripping into the Bills, you really should listen, because that's definitely not something he wants to do. 

Simms loves the Bills & loves Allen. He sounds pissed.

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

My bottom line: is Allen "it", developed, The Man now?  No, more work still needed.

 

 

 

Hunh? Is this a pop culture reference I'm missing or autocorrect damage or something?