John Gianelli Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 This thread is meant for boomers, and older Generation Xers. Would you agree that over time, the offensive line has become less and less predictable/stable in terms of personnel, more so than any other area? Going back to our AFL days, and certainly during the Electric Company era, you knew who were your starters, and you stayed with them. Stew Barber, Billy Shaw, Al Bemiller, Joe O'Donnell, Dick Hudson. Anyone else was definitely a backup. Same with the Electric Company. Joe D, Reggie, Mike Montler, Dave Foley, Donnie Green, though Bruce Jarvis started some games in place of Montler. For the past many years, there seems to be no consistency in the line. For instance, is Cody Ford a tackle or a guard? Is Quinton Spain a quality starter whom you give a new contract to, or a has-been whom you cut before the season's half over? I attribute it to a combination of not having the same level of talent, a change in offensive line philosophy, and the reality of free agency. Is there a current Bills offensive lineman who has played the same position for us for more than three years? Or even been on the team for more than three years? I couldn't have imagined moving Donnie Green to left guard to see how he worked out there for a game or two. If moves like that ever happened, I don't remember them. I can't even tell you what our starting offensive line was for the Chiefs game, much less at the beginning of the season. Is Boettger still on the team? If so, is he a tackle, a guard, or a center, or all three? It wasn't like that in the old days, was it boys?
SoCal Deek Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 I beg to differ. The offensive line was supposed to be anchored by at least FOUR returning starters in Morse, Dawkins, Feliciano, and Ford. That’s a whole lot of consistency there. You could even toss in Spain, but something happened there.
Ethan in Cleveland Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 Dawkins is a four year starter at LT. Free agency and injuries don’t allow the continuity you are seeking. Cant blame Beane that Richie started drinking again or that Wood got hurt and had to retire. Morse is overpaid but he is playing like a low end top 10 center. Williams is playing well. The guard play has been terrible.They have been ok in pass protection but god awful in run blocking. Maybe Feliciano makes a difference.
BillsFan692 Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 There does seem to be a lot of movement in positions along both the oline and dline. Dline got a lot of rotation play to play and oline they always shifting guys around. To be honest our lineplay has sucked under mcdermott on either side of the ball 1
oldmanfan Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 I remember the 60's O line well. The big difference is free agency. Harder to keep a line together long term now. Plus there seems to be this emphasis on guys being able to play different positions for some reason. 6
The Jokeman Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 26 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I remember the 60's O line well. The big difference is free agency. Harder to keep a line together long term now. Plus there seems to be this emphasis on guys being able to play different positions for some reason. It's because of the cap, if a guy can play two or more spots than it saves you from having to have another guy if he/they can only play one position. TBH I thought we as fans over rated Feliciano last year but after watching us without him we certainly seem to miss him. Also not 100% sure why Spain was benched to begin with as he's always been a better pass blocker than a run blocker which seems the case for most of our line this year. Yet am glad to see us cut him if he was really upset with his benching as instead of using it a reason to get better he used it as an excuse to move on.
Thurman#1 Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 (edited) Yeah, free agency. Under Beane, the OL sucked in 2017, improved the slightest little bit in 2018 but then came the FA influx and Ford and they've been solidly good since. I wish we could say it was better than solidly good, but we have guys at every position who are legit starters in the NFL. Not so many teams have that these days. Free agency threw a monkey wrench in OL consistency, which has made a major difference in performance. It's almost impossible to put together a group like the Electric Company these days. Look how quickly that Dallas group that looked like it was set for the future fell apart. Edited October 22, 2020 by Thurman#1 1
colin Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 im too young to opine, but that hasn't ever stopped me before. our o line coaching isn't good enough. it's that simple. more than any other unit on a football team, coaching helps and hurts the oline. you see kc and ne and gb put in back ups and get sick results, and you see teams like the raiders spend a ton on oline and still get just ok to barely good results. individual talent on the online doesn't help if you have a single weak link. you need talent, obviously, but how they play as a unit is like 80% of it. if you have just a glaring hole, you need to scheme around it at the OC level. i remember we had this LT (gandy maybe? don't quite remember his name). he was really trash. anyhow, he ended up being the starter for the cards and they went to the superbowl and really shoulda won the thing. 2
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 I get what you are saying and I agree that we are shuffling and moving people around way more now. Our lack of backups/depth at the O-line position is scary bad, if Morse or Dawkins go down expect to see this offense crumble. We had a lot of holes to fix in this rebuild, the team is showing signs that it can compete against the best teams in the NFL. I think we are 1 more year away from having a fully rebuilt team under Beanie and McD. We seem to be trending in the right direction and with a few tweaks we might be able to pull off a shot at the SB this year. The next year of FA and the draft needs to be focused on the trenches. 1
Bulldog Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 25 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I remember the 60's O line well. The big difference is free agency. Harder to keep a line together long term now. Plus there seems to be this emphasis on guys being able to play different positions for some reason. I am an old guy too - I remember the days of o-line stability. I agree with you that free agency has made keeping a line together very difficult. The lack of continuity on offensive lines has contributed the overall decrease in the quality of o-line play in the NFL -- successful o-lines need to function nearly as one rather than five - communication and familiarity with the guys next to you are vital to consistent quality line play. I also believe that the advent of the Salary Cap has also contributed to the o-line turnover & subsequent decrease in quality of overall o-line play. The constant tinkering with personnel for financial, rather than just level of play, issues is also a significant factor. 2
Billl Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 Nearly no teams feel like they have great lines anymore because the nature of the game has changed. Teams don’t line up and run the ball 60% of the time and keep the clock rolling like they used to. Linemen are asked to do more things, and they’re on the field for more plays as passing rates increase. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to spend money and draft capital on five linemen plus backups. Superstar QBs are hard to find and expensive to keep, but the teams who have them are at a huge advantage. Guys like Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, and Mahomes who have the ability to make chicken salad without great lines allow teams to spend their draft picks on more impactful positions. That’s the model in today’s game. 1
oldmanfan Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 It's also harder to find O linemen coming out of college that understand how to run block. Many come from these spread offenses and only learn pass protection. 2
Kwai San Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 I'm a tweener I guess.....The days of Hull, Ballard, Richter, Wolford, and Davis (?). Them days be gone but Dang they opened up some HUGE holes for Thurm, Kenny Davis, Carwell and others plus provided Jimbo with loads of time for Reed, Lofton, Tasker et al..... The current line looked great on paper till Jon F went down....soon as I heard of that injury I knew it was gonna be shake and bake for the O-Line.....no TC was a real bummer for both lines in general. 1
Bill from NYC Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: It's also harder to find O linemen coming out of college that understand how to run block. Many come from these spread offenses and only learn pass protection. This I do not understand. Run blocking is easier for the OL simply because THEY (unlike their opponents) know the count at they are firing out, rather than backing up and getting hit. Additionally, defenses are getting smaller, and seemingly easier to out muscle. Blockers used to love running plays. Has this changed? 1
billsfan89 Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Billl said: Nearly no teams feel like they have great lines anymore because the nature of the game has changed. Teams don’t line up and run the ball 60% of the time and keep the clock rolling like they used to. Linemen are asked to do more things, and they’re on the field for more plays as passing rates increase. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to spend money and draft capital on five linemen plus backups. Superstar QBs are hard to find and expensive to keep, but the teams who have them are at a huge advantage. Guys like Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, and Mahomes who have the ability to make chicken salad without great lines allow teams to spend their draft picks on more impactful positions. That’s the model in today’s game. Almost every team that makes a deep playoff run either has a quality O-line or is sunk by their crap O-line. O-line play can be volatile and made better by QB play but in the end the O-line is the fulcrum of the offense. If your QB is constantly under pressure without blitzing and the running game isn't working due to no holes opening up then your offense is crippled to the point where you can't win consistently in the playoffs. Yes some teams with great QB's can fake it till they make it without at least a decent O-line. But in the end you face a team that has the defense and offense that can make you pay. It is however harder to find and retain O-line play which causes wild variations in O-line play year to year. It used to be you could find plug and play guards, centers and RT's in the 2nd and 3rd round of the draft rather easily 10-15 years ago. But due to colleges adopting the spread offense there isn't the same level of consistency and "plug and play" development at the O-line position. O-line players now take 3 years sometimes even 4-5 years to fully develop, whereas typically in the past by year two you could have a player developed going through the ringer a bit in their rookie year and getting two off-seasons of strength and conditioning. So good O-line play across all 5 positions is dramatically more expensive and thus something that teams up against the cap will sacrifice.
WideNine Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 4 hours ago, John Gianelli said: This thread is meant for boomers, and older Generation Xers. Would you agree that over time, the offensive line has become less and less predictable/stable in terms of personnel, more so than any other area? Going back to our AFL days, and certainly during the Electric Company era, you knew who were your starters, and you stayed with them. Stew Barber, Billy Shaw, Al Bemiller, Joe O'Donnell, Dick Hudson. Anyone else was definitely a backup. Same with the Electric Company. Joe D, Reggie, Mike Montler, Dave Foley, Donnie Green, though Bruce Jarvis started some games in place of Montler. For the past many years, there seems to be no consistency in the line. For instance, is Cody Ford a tackle or a guard? Is Quinton Spain a quality starter whom you give a new contract to, or a has-been whom you cut before the season's half over? I attribute it to a combination of not having the same level of talent, a change in offensive line philosophy, and the reality of free agency. Is there a current Bills offensive lineman who has played the same position for us for more than three years? Or even been on the team for more than three years? I couldn't have imagined moving Donnie Green to left guard to see how he worked out there for a game or two. If moves like that ever happened, I don't remember them. I can't even tell you what our starting offensive line was for the Chiefs game, much less at the beginning of the season. Is Boettger still on the team? If so, is he a tackle, a guard, or a center, or all three? It wasn't like that in the old days, was it boys? I would like to say that Bobby Johnson has not been up to the task, but I think that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think it is talent. Is it any wonder that the highest performing and highest graded offensive linemen on our squad are Morse and Dawkins? It is because OBD invested in that talent to either bring that talent in, or to develop and retain it via extension. They are not cheap resources. Now for the rest, I think they felt that if Ford lived up to their draft assessment of his capabilities that they would have 3 key, high-level players on their line and that would be enough to allow them to fill in the remaining gaps with serviceable journeyman talent. Ford has not panned out (yet). Not at RT, or RG, or at LG and it mostly comes down to moving his feet. You look at the tape with Ford and you will see a guy whose upper-body is often lunging trying to reach for defensive linemen, this leaves him off-balance, in awkward positions, and with little leverage because his feet are not under his upper body and he is not resetting quickly enough to get into his blocks. If your feet are glued to the turf and you are lunging with your upper body to make your blocks then you are also more likely to sustain injuries. He also seems to be struggling understanding protections, and picking up blitzes. Some of this could be the coaching staff having him play different positions, but would not explain his regression at LG. It may be that he is still trying to process protections and is not able to anticipate his angles and leverage as these things work together. My take regarding his slow resetting of his feet may have more to do with his late processing of where he needs to be and the angle he needs to take to have good leverage... as with most things it is likely a bit of both. Don't get me wrong, I like the kid and he is working his butt off, but he is not there yet with the fundamentals and I think that he is going to be more of a project than the staff at OBD envisioned. If Feliciano comes back and plays at a high enough level we should see some improvement along the whole line. Ike seems to be well liked here on The Wall, but honestly I have not watched enough tape of his play to say one way or another how he will perform. O-line play, despite Mitch Morse being very PC about just doing your 1/11 job regardless of who is next to you, is probably the most codependent group on the team. They have to work as a unit understanding and processing protections and their run blocking assignments. If you trust the guy next to you to do his job, you can focus on your own. Even if 4 guys are on the same page and one guy isn't, you can end up with 5 guys looking back at your RB stuffed 4 yards behind the LOS, or deciding who will help Allen up off the turf. 1
Don Otreply Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 Good to see these youngsters know where to go for answers... 😂 Go Bills!!! (it’s called humor)
Billl Posted October 22, 2020 Posted October 22, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Almost every team that makes a deep playoff run either has a quality O-line or is sunk by their crap O-line. O-line play can be volatile and made better by QB play but in the end the O-line is the fulcrum of the offense. If your QB is constantly under pressure without blitzing and the running game isn't working due to no holes opening up then your offense is crippled to the point where you can't win consistently in the playoffs. Yes some teams with great QB's can fake it till they make it without at least a decent O-line. But in the end you face a team that has the defense and offense that can make you pay. It is however harder to find and retain O-line play which causes wild variations in O-line play year to year. It used to be you could find plug and play guards, centers and RT's in the 2nd and 3rd round of the draft rather easily 10-15 years ago. But due to colleges adopting the spread offense there isn't the same level of consistency and "plug and play" development at the O-line position. O-line players now take 3 years sometimes even 4-5 years to fully develop, whereas typically in the past by year two you could have a player developed going through the ringer a bit in their rookie year and getting two off-seasons of strength and conditioning. So good O-line play across all 5 positions is dramatically more expensive and thus something that teams up against the cap will sacrifice. The Chiefs, Packers, and Seahawks all had mediocre at best lines whose QBs made them look better than they actually were. The Chiefs just averaged 60 yards per possession against the Bills without their best lineman (injury at RT), without their starting guard coming into the season (COVID opt out), without the guard they signed to replace him (injury) and with their backup center (benched due to poor play). How did they manage to get 27 first downs on 8 possessions while missing 4 players on the O line? They did it because Buffalo was so scared of Mahomes killing them deep that they put 6 in the box the entire time. The Chiefs ran for 245 yards, and Mahomes still managed to complete over 80% of his passes in terrible passing conditions. KC played with 2 TEs most of the game, so they had 7 guys blocking 6 defenders. It doesn’t take a great Offensive Line to win under those circumstances. The Chiefs won that game before it started because of the game plan Mahomes forced the Bills into. Edited October 22, 2020 by Billl
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