Fe'Zahn Tremaine Edmunds scouting report tells us exactly what we see on the field.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Um, no. I'm the one who called him out, and I took great pains to - twice - tell everyone they should read the whole thing. Gave the link, twice. (Mods later found another link which is somewhat different, but has overall the same slant.)

 

Whereas he didn't give the link at all, or indicate that he was only giving a small, biased part of the story. That's why the mods went to his OP and put in the link themselves.

 

To clarify my POV as a mod anyway - copying someone's work without providing credit and a link is "no bueno", inappropriate

If I can paste a quote into google and find a link in 30 seconds flat, so can the OP.

 

After that, what to focus on is up to the person posting here, we all have our points of view.  It's OK to focus on the negative if that's what floats someone's boat.  It garners more respect when one acknowledges that's what one is doing "focusing on the negatives in this scouting report...."

 

Speaking personally, there are some cray-cray takes in this thread (not aimed at you).

  "Edmunds has never made one single game changing impact play"

C'Mon Man.

 

It's probably fair to look at the negatives and ask "to what extent has he progressed here?" and have a personal opinion that progress seems insufficient

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Isn't he 22? In his 3rd season?  The time is now. Linebackers usually don't take 3-4 years to learn how to play.

 

The whole NFL structure right now with the salary cap and free agency basically means teams have to get value from players on their rookie contracts. 

 

The Bills appear to be bucking the trend in that we've clearly selected high-ceiling guys on offense and defense who were known to need development time.  TBD (to be determined) how that works out in the long run.

[Thurman#1]

30 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

Agree that you should post to the entire report.  But, I think the OP’s point is that the warnings in the report are what we are seeing now.  

 

Really, overall, the D has regressed, the OL has regressed, gee, seems to point to coaching to me.  

 

 

 

 

Yeah, and I agree the Titanic had a few flaws, but the dinners were great. It was truly a horrible post. He was much much better last year. He was a Pro Bowler. He's regressed. It's likely the surroundings and the injury. If not it will come out over time. No reason to think otherwise.

 

As for your idea that the D regressing pointing to coaching when there are injured players playing, players out from injury like Milano (without whom this defense always seems totally different) and four different starters, that's ridiculous. Coaching might be a part of it, but much more than that we can't really say with reason.

[Real McClappy]

52 minutes ago, Jaraxxus said:

 

Is it a TPS report?

 

[MAJBobby]

7 hours ago, LB48 said:

It's been 3 years since this report.  I don't see any improvement in his play - - maybe dropping off.  What do you think?

[Edit: this report appears to be from https://www.profootballweekly.com/2018/04/17/nfl-draft-profile-no-11-virginia-tech-lb-tremaine-edmunds/a42uauc/.  Please give your sources when quoting someone else's work.  Thanks. -Mod]

Gap integrity looks like that of a 19-year old. Will take the wrong gap and watch runners go where he should have been. Eyes get too big — gets greedy and will overplay the ball. Takes on blockers at poor angles and gets cleaned out of plays. Has to key better on OL movement and diagnose run plays just a hair faster. Doesn’t use his hands well enough at this point to stack and shed interior OL blocks. Can get blown up by crack-back blocks — must do better job of keeping head on a swivel.

Instincts are still developing in coverage — prone to getting fooled by play action and misdirection  and will have trouble locating the ball at times. Sometimes gets lost in space. Plays too shallow sometimes and doesn’t cut off enough of the field.

Still developing physically, too. Carries his weight well but needs to add take-on  strength. Isn’t a Brandon Spikes-type of linebacker and could add a little more nastiness as a hitter.

Edmunds isnt the problem. Sorry to all those that think he is.

[Thurman#1]

59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To clarify my POV as a mod anyway - copying someone's work without providing credit and a link is "no bueno", inappropriate

If I can paste a quote into google and find a link in 30 seconds flat, so can the OP.

 

After that, what to focus on is up to the person posting here, we all have our points of view.  It's OK to focus on the negative if that's what floats someone's boat.  It garners more respect when one acknowledges that's what one is doing "focusing on the negatives in this scouting report...."

 

Speaking personally, there are some cray-cray takes in this thread (not aimed at you).

  "Edmunds has never made one single game changing impact play"

C'Mon Man.

 

It's probably fair to look at the negatives and ask "to what extent has he progressed here?" and have a personal opinion that progress seems insufficient

 

 

 

 

Yeah, "what to focus on is up to the person posting."

 

Of course. But he didn't just "not focus" on the positive. He didn't indicate there was any, and tried to hide it by not linking. It was intellectually dishonest. Evasive. It was a post to make fair minds queasy.

 

I say this as a non-mod, obviously. Any argument based on hiding most of the information has maggots eating away at it from the inside, it's flawed and built on quicksand. Hiding that is why the information is hidden in the first place.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Thurman#1

[thenorthremembers]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Edmunds isnt the problem. Sorry to all those that think he is.

Edmunds isnt the only problem, but he is part of the problem.     Currently he is near the bottom of his position in both production and on field play, and even last year when he made the "pro-bowl" he wasnt a nuanced difference maker.

 

Slice it anyway you like it, but when you're a first round draft pick with high expectations guys like John Bostic and B.J. Goodson shouldnt be outproducing or outplaying you. 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, thenorthremembers said:

Edmunds isnt the only problem, but he is part of the problem.     Currently he is near the bottom of his position in both production and on field play, and even last year when he made the "pro-bowl" he wasnt a nuanced difference maker.

 

Slice it anyway you like it, but when you're a first round draft pick with high expectations guys like John Bostic and B.J. Goodson shouldnt be outproducing or outplaying you. 

Well they need to get him back to letting him play his game instead of trying to cover 3 LBers positions and assignments.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

Tape:

 

 

Thanks for this.  Serious question: 4 minute mark. Can someone explain why that was not Edmunds’ gap responsibility?  He’s the only one lined up presnap in the gap the run went to and he vacated it to move toward the fake counter action.
 

In a larger context, Edmunds has certainly done some things well.  He scrapes very well and he has made some nice plays.  But he has not been consistent in a good way.  He gets out of his gap responsibility too often, he overruns plays and he is too slow to react too often.

It’s not as though he’s trash, but he’s not close to what you expect from the 16th overall pick in his third year (even a young, raw prospect).  He was taken that high to be a difference maker and while he does make some great, splash plays, he’s not doing close to well enough on a play by play basis.

 

His option decision is due this offseason and I can’t see us picking it up.  There’s just no way we can justify the kind of long term contract that and his draft position would set up.  I see us declining the option and making him play out his last season while hoping the light goes on.  If it does, then we keep him with a new contract or tag.  If not, then we move on. 

[bigK14094]

Edmunds is not a run plugger ala chris Spielman.  (yeh, I am old enough to remember his days with the Bills)

[thenorthremembers]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Well they need to get him back to letting him play his game instead of trying to cover 3 LBers positions and assignments.

I dont disagree there.  Not having Milano has been a real detriment to the entire defense, including Edmunds.   Dodson gets a lot of love for being athletic, but he is poor in coverage and misses way too many tackles.   Klein is in the same boat, he cant cover to save his life and misses close to 20% of his tackles, double what is considered horrible by NFL Standards.  So in that respect you are right, Edmunds is probably pressing.

 

Milano and Edmunds complement one another extremely well.  Milano is fantastic in coverage, and Edmunds is better against the run.   Hopefully when they are both together again and healthy they both return to form.

[marky]

Edmunds plays tall. If you are a RB, he stands out like a traffic light. Run the play until you see him choose a gap, then just go the other way. The Bills play bend don't break. Situational football. Give up 10 plays to get to the short field. Then go for the turnover, the big third down stop, draw a penalty.

 

It's bad to change the lineup midseason. They need to go after turnovers. That's why they were so good last year. Break down the tape more against their opponent. The Bills were competitive in both losses as bad as they played.

[thebandit27]

13 minutes ago, beavis said:

Edmunds plays tall. If you are a RB, he stands out like a traffic light. Run the play until you see him choose a gap, then just go the other way. The Bills play bend don't break. Situational football. Give up 10 plays to get to the short field. Then go for the turnover, the big third down stop, draw a penalty.

 

It's bad to change the lineup midseason. They need to go after turnovers. That's why they were so good last year. Break down the tape more against their opponent. The Bills were competitive in both losses as bad as they played.

“run the play until you see him choose a gap, then just go the other way”...

 

Wait, so opponents can just re-route their entire blocking scheme and play design mid-play based upon which gap Edmunds shoots?

 

No. 

[Luka]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

To continue, funny how you left out this part of the same report:

 

"

The Way We See It: A true junior, Edmunds is a unique prospect -- it's not often that we see inside linebackers who are close to 6-foot-5. Very productive college player, but he is more of a reactor than an anticipator. In the NFL, instincts matter at the LB position. He can get tall at times, but Edmunds still uses his hands well to shed. He's better in pursuit than defending runs right at him. Needs to make a few more plays at or near the LOS (line of scrimmage). Very good coverage guy who gets depth with his drop and can play man. Plants and closes on the ball quickly. Not used a lot as a blitzer/pass rusher and needs to develop his pass rush technique. Overall, Edmunds is a very good prospect who is not quite there yet. With his frame, he might be better off outside, but if he plays there he needs to improve his pass rush skills. Has a lot of upside. He will be graded differently by each club depending on their profile for the position. With his size and athleticism, he has some Brian Urlacher to him -- but he's not Urlacher. He can control the middle of the field in zone similarly to what Urlacher was able to do. I'm not as high as others on Edmunds because he doesn't have top instincts, but at his age they will get better. Could be a top-10 guy.
 

 

Upside:

Long, massive and rangy defender — great arm length, explosiveness, athletic profile and size-speed combination. Can't draw them up too much better for the position. Great athleticism on display at combine shows up on tape too. Natural strength is impressive, and he's got a lot of room to develop and get stronger. Keeps his feet moving and can pivot and change directions with ease. Closes on the ball in a hurry.
Will break extremely fast on underneath passes thrown in his area. Watch this film-study play where Edmunds reads the eyes of Miami (Fla.) QB Malik Rosier and breaks on the drag route to break up the pass nicely:

https://giphy.com/gifs/ZcbIem1AaGDlSTwCaV

Can pinball off blockers and keep his momentum going toward the ball. Squares his shoulders nicely and plays with a downhill thump and purpose. Effective rusher who can scream off the edge, arrive quickly on a green-dog blitz or loop around on stunts. Explosive when working downhill, especially in the run game. Sets a good, hard edge against the run, especially in goal line and short yardage.

Tackling is strong, especially for such a young player and particulary in space. Closes nicely from depth and hits his targets. Scrapes down the line, keeps his balance and can shed blocks on the move. Wraps up and closes the deal with his condor wingspan and good burst. Rarely whiffs, and at the very worst he can slow down ballcarriers for others to finish off the play.

Has template to be a good coverage player. Rare that a 250-pound player can check backs and tight ends in man coverage, but he can carry them past the second level. Even occasionally matched up with receivers. Has the athleticism to be a Tampa-2 "Mike" and drop into deep zones. Loose hips — can turn and run in a flash. Will read quarterbacks' eyes for tells. Tries to bait them into throwing to his man, knowing he can make up the distance in a jiffy.

Highly productive player. Always seems to make 2-3 disruptive plays per game. Clean medical history — no known injuries at Tech. Strong character marks from NFL teams.

 

And he's still not there, yet.

What I do find interesting though, is that I have faced considerable criticism for suggesting that the staff start moving him out of the MLB spot and give him opportunities to rush the passer.

 

Quote

Effective rusher who can scream off the edge, arrive quickly on a green-dog blitz or loop around on stunts. Explosive when working downhill, especially in the run game. Sets a good, hard edge against the run, especially in goal line and short yardage.

And that's what our defense needs, right now. After nearly 2 1/2 years he is still struggling to diagnose plays and is not trusting what he sees. No reason not to give the kid a shot at making some plays, build some confidence.
 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, klos63 said:

Isn't he 22? In his 3rd season?  The time is now. Linebackers usually don't take 3-4 years to learn how to play.

 

 

He's not 19 now. But he was when that was written.

 

And a guy who was a Pro Bowler last year isn't learning how to play. He might still be improving. Or he might be dealing with an injury. But he's not playing like a 19 year old anymore. Edmunds is well past that point, though something is clearly wrong.

 

But those blaming it all on him are kidding themselves. Problems look easier when you find a scapegoat and yell at him because you can pretend everything will get better all at once  if only that one thing changed. But it's a misrepresentation of reality. I've made this argument before, because it's the best example, but there was a huge number of people arguing that Ray Lewis had passed his prime at around age 26 or 27. His play visibly declined. He simply wasn't as effective as he had been back in the old days, the days when he had had a space-eater named Siragusa in front of him. But no, for many people that wasn't the problem. It was that Lewis wasn't any good anymore. Yet miraculously when they brought in Ngata to play in front of him he coincidentally picked that same moment to once again start playing like the best LB in the game. 

 

Circumstances and surrounding players have effects. As do injuries and other things.

[Luka]

5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

“run the play until you see him choose a gap, then just go the other way”...

 

Wait, so opponents can just re-route their entire blocking scheme and play design mid-play based upon which gap Edmunds shoots?

 

No. 

 

In all your years, you've never noticed a running back cut back?

[Thurman#1]

6 minutes ago, Luka said:

And he's still not there, yet.

What I do find interesting though, is that I have faced considerable criticism for suggesting that the staff start moving him out of the MLB spot and give him opportunities to rush the passer.

 

And that's what our defense needs, right now. After nearly 2 1/2 years he is still struggling to diagnose plays and is not trusting what he sees. No reason not to give the kid a shot at making some plays, build some confidence.
 

 

 

They do need a rusher.

 

But the idea that because we need a rusher, Edmunds should be the one who rushes is logically flawed. In several ways. 

 

McDermott's defense isn't built around LBs consistently rushing. Occasionally, yes. Consistently, no. He's proven last year he's a very good MLB. Yeah, he's having problems now, and if it was your defense that we were running, maybe it would be a great idea to move him. But it's McDermott's.

[Luka]

Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

They do need a rusher.

 

But the idea that because we need a rusher, Edmunds should be the one who rushes is logically flawed. In several ways. 

 

McDermott's defense isn't built around LBs consistently rushing. Occasionally, yes. Consistently, no. He's proven last year he's a very good MLB. Yeah, he's having problems now, and if it was your defense that we were running, maybe it would be a great idea to move him. But it's McDermott's.

 

You do realize that players can rotate in and out right? Teams can run different packages? No? Ok.

[Thurman#1]

3 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

You do realize that players can rotate in and out right? Teams can run different packages? No? Ok.

 

 

And I repeat, if this were your defense, what you're saying there would matter. It's McDermott's. I do indeed see player rotating in and out. Do you see Milano or Edmunds rotating in and out? Exactly. 

 

Do you want them to? Fine. Buy the Bills and get yourself installed as DC. Frankly, though, I'm glad you don't have the money.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

In all your years, you've never noticed a running back cut back?

 

Please, the problem isn't that they can see him. Any RB with even decent vision sees the LBs just fine about 95% of the time. 

 

The problem appears to be run fits, and gaps left open and it doesn't seem to be Edmunds who's especially the problem. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Thurman#1

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Um, no. I'm the one who called him out, and I took great pains to - twice - tell everyone they should read the whole thing. Gave the link, twice. (Mods later found another link which is somewhat different, but has overall the same slant.)

 

Whereas he didn't give the link at all, or indicate that he was only giving a small, biased part of the story. That's why the mods went to his OP and put in the link themselves.

 

And you're cherrypicking just as much as him. Again picking one or two of the few negative things and pretending that it's "the rest of the report, " which is just flat-out wrong. The rest of the report does indeed say the things you say, but also things like this:  

 

"Explosive when working downhill, especially in the run game. Sets a good, hard edge against the run, especially in goal line and short yardage.Tackling is strong, especially for such a young player and particulary in space. Closes nicely from depth and hits his targets. Scrapes down the line, keeps his balance and can shed blocks on the move. Wraps up and closes the deal with his condor wingspan and good burst. Rarely whiffs, and at the very worst he can slow down ballcarriers for others to finish off the play."

 

The thing to do is give both sides of the story. When you give only one, you're saying more about  yourself and  your prejudices than you are about the guy you're writing about.

 

 

So exactly what I said, he runs well, wraps up with his arms.  He also needs space to react, “ closes nicely from depth” yep, when he can see it, he goes and gets it.   “Sets a good hard edge” yep, should be playing outside. 
 

just because you read doesn’t mean you understand, and you validated it again for everyone to see.