Aikman vs Allen

[Motorin']

44 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Different era. Aikman was regarded by pretty much everyone who followed the sport as the most accurate thrower in the league during his prime.

Aikmen was horrible his first three years, where he had 14 wins and 24 losses. 

 

 

[Dr.Sack]

A good season for Aikman was 15TDs and under 10 picks. He was the master of mediocrity and sole beneficiary of having an all world running game and OLine. That old Dallas line and Smith would have put up 300 yards on us last night.

[FlaFitz1]

42 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

Well, Aikman was one of the "Never Joshers" during the pre-draft hype back in 2018, and was very critical of the Bills taking Allen over Rosen. That is one of the reasons that I was really hoping that we would see the Josh of the first 4 games last night, just so that Aikman would have to shut his mouth.

 

Alas, that was not meant to be as Josh clearly missed on a few passes.

 

As an aside, though, for those of you who are old like me and remember Aikman's playing days... he could NOT THROW A WET FOOTBALL. When playing in raining conditions, for whatever reason, he could not get a proper grip on the ball and it would not come out of his hand properly. Maybe he should have taken that into context with last night's game.

 

Regarding accuracy, it is true that during his era, Troy Aikman was one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. The Dallas practices were legendary as supposedly the balls on some days would never hit the ground. There are others in more recent years like Brady and Brees who have managed on pinpoint accuracy rather than having elite arm strength. We've seen Josh be deadly accurate, so it's not like he is incapable. I can't sit here and tell you that he will ever be a consistently 65% accurate QB -- that just may never be who he is. But he has so many other things in his arsenal that such a short-coming may not be the end of the world.

 

And, BTW, Terry Bradshaw was never a 60% completion guy either. A different era, I know, but that is one of the things about Josh Allen, he really is a throwback style QB.

 

The game last night was billed as Mahomes Against Allen, and Mahomes definitely won the first round. However, one QB had the benefit of RBs who rushed for a combined 300 yards, while the other led his team in rushing. One had very little pressure in his face all night, while the other was constantly besieged by unblocked defenders (and actually did a pretty good job averting the pressure).

 

Does Josh need to be better? Absolutely. The miss on the pass to a wide open Singletary in the first quarter as well as the miss to Beasley across the middle are passes he has to make -- and either one of those 3rd down completions could very well have resulted in a different outcome to this game.

 

Thank you for the thoughtful reply - not only because I agree with you fully but also because I'm old like you and remember his playing days clearly.  Additionally, Irvin, Harper, Novacek, Smith, Johnston, Williams...  all great pass catchers!!  They caught just about everything and dropped few.

Edited October 20, 2020 by FlaFitz1

[FlaFitz1]

50 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Different era. Aikman was regarded by pretty much everyone who followed the sport as the most accurate thrower in the league during his prime.

 

 

His prime was years were years 4 through 8 and he still had a 79 TD to 52 INT ratio

[dorquemada]

 

Aikman can badmouth Allen all he likes.  If Allen doesn't like it, maybe he should stop laying turds against good teams.  Aikman sure as hell didnt turn small in big games.  I say that as an Allen fan, but we shouldnt be butthurt when pundits savage the Bills.  They've looked like hot garbage the last 2 weeks.  The worst thing would be a regression back to the Bills teams of a few years ago that show big against bad teams, and small against good teams.  It's a recipe for sneaking into the playoffs and getting wrecked in the first round.

[DCofNC]

39 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

Well, Aikman was one of the "Never Joshers" during the pre-draft hype back in 2018, and was very critical of the Bills taking Allen over Rosen. That is one of the reasons that I was really hoping that we would see the Josh of the first 4 games last night, just so that Aikman would have to shut his mouth.

 

Alas, that was not meant to be as Josh clearly missed on a few passes.

 

As an aside, though, for those of you who are old like me and remember Aikman's playing days... he could NOT THROW A WET FOOTBALL. When playing in raining conditions, for whatever reason, he could not get a proper grip on the ball and it would not come out of his hand properly. Maybe he should have taken that into context with last night's game.

 

Regarding accuracy, it is true that during his era, Troy Aikman was one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. The Dallas practices were legendary as supposedly the balls on some days would never hit the ground. There are others in more recent years like Brady and Brees who have managed on pinpoint accuracy rather than having elite arm strength. We've seen Josh be deadly accurate, so it's not like he is incapable. I can't sit here and tell you that he will ever be a consistently 65% accurate QB -- that just may never be who he is. But he has so many other things in his arsenal that such a short-coming may not be the end of the world.

 

And, BTW, Terry Bradshaw was never a 60% completion guy either. A different era, I know, but that is one of the things about Josh Allen, he really is a throwback style QB.

 

The game last night was billed as Mahomes Against Allen, and Mahomes definitely won the first round. However, one QB had the benefit of RBs who rushed for a combined 300 yards, while the other led his team in rushing. One had very little pressure in his face all night, while the other was constantly besieged by unblocked defenders (and actually did a pretty good job averting the pressure).

 

Does Josh need to be better? Absolutely. The miss on the pass to a wide open Singletary in the first quarter as well as the miss to Beasley across the middle are passes he has to make -- and either one of those 3rd down completions could very well have resulted in a different outcome to this game.

Neither one would be worth a crap in today’s game, not to mention Bradshaw was not considered all that great in his own era.  He had a helluva team around him that won a lot, but it was more inspire of him, not because of him.  He was more personality than anything.  Aikman, again not exceptionally regarded, but was surrounded by HOF talent at virtually every position on O and he didn’t screw it up too much.

[BuffaloMatt]

1 hour ago, FlaFitz1 said:

I wanted to offer an observation about Allen and Aikman.  I'm sorry in advance but it exactly what I was thinking last evening while watching the game and was wondering if others thought this too.

 

Yes, early in the game Aikman talked about Allen's pro day lauding how strong Allen's arm is but later Aikman said, paraphrasing, you can't teach accuracy and Allen isn't and won't be accurate.

 

That was coming out of the mouth of a HOF QB that played 12 seasons and in only half of those did he have a completion percentage above 60%.    Not in any of those 12 did he have a season above 70%.

 

Allen right now, after two stinkers, one in the rain (rather in a mostly dome like the one Aikman spent all of his home games in) is at 67.1% which still beats Aikman's second best season of 65.3% and only slightly trails Aikman's 1993 season in which he completed 69.1% of his passes.

 

Additionally, in the last two games Allen completed 63.4% (Tenn) and 51.9% (KC) of his passes.  In Aikman's 1993 season he had back to back games in weeks 6 and 7 of 60% completed and 47.4% completed.  That season also happened to be Aikman's 5th year in the league and the season in which he completed 69.1%.

 

Through his first three years Aikman averaged 58.6% completed while throwing 31 TDs vs 38 interceptions.  If we add in his rushing TDs it's 34 total TDs vs 38 picks.

 

Allen in his first 3 years to date?  58.7% completed, 46 passing TDs vs 25 interceptions.  Again, if we add in his rushing TDs it's 66 total TDs to 25 picks.

 

Oh and one more note over his first three seasons Aiken played in and started started 38 games - Allen has played in 34 and started 33 so far.  I could breakdown the first 16 games of each vs the second 16 games of each but I don't think that's necessary and it would be only uglier for Aikman.

 

So for Aikman a HOF QB to dismiss Allen at this point of his career and say he'll never be accurate when the trajectory and timeline Allen is on so far surpasses his own seems absurd to me.

 

One more note - I'd love to ask Aikman how come when Allen missed a throw it was about his accuracy issues but when Mahomes missed one it was because the ball is slippery and it's tough to throw in the weather?

 

  

Answer is Aikman is a douche. 

[dave mcbride]

54 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

A good season for Aikman was 15TDs and under 10 picks. He was the master of mediocrity and sole beneficiary of having an all world running game and OLine. That old Dallas line and Smith would have put up 300 yards on us last night.

Did you watch the games? He'd pass them down the field and then they'd punch it in. They were at the top in scoring nearly every year in his prime. Also, as I said above, they were 1, 2, or 3 in net yards per attempt -- the most important passing stat, in my view -- during their dominant SB years (1992-1995). 

46 minutes ago, FlaFitz1 said:

 

 

His prime was years were years 4 through 8 and he still had a 79 TD to 52 INT ratio

Look at the Cowboys scoring and the YPA average. I feel like people are cherry picking stats and missing the big picture. His accuracy on deeper throws opened everything up. 

[BillsFanSD]

It's not a good idea to compare QB stats across different eras.

 

That said, Dallas never had any problem winning without Aikman, but they sure struggled when Emmitt was injured.  When you can plug in Jason Garrett and not miss a beat, that tells you everything you need to know.

[MJS]

Well yeah, but it was a different game. Not just because defenders could actually play, but because things like the spread offense were less used. QB's were expected to take a deep drop back almost every time and push the ball down the field. The quick passing game was not yet as prevalent. The screen game wasn't as big. All those things that pad the stats, including completion percentage.

[H2o]

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, FlaFitz1 said:

I wanted to offer an observation about Allen and Aikman.  I'm sorry in advance but it exactly what I was thinking last evening while watching the game and was wondering if others thought this too.

 

Yes, early in the game Aikman talked about Allen's pro day lauding how strong Allen's arm is but later Aikman said, paraphrasing, you can't teach accuracy and Allen isn't and won't be accurate.

 

That was coming out of the mouth of a HOF QB that played 12 seasons and in only half of those did he have a completion percentage above 60%.    Not in any of those 12 did he have a season above 70%.

 

Allen right now, after two stinkers, one in the rain (rather in a mostly dome like the one Aikman spent all of his home games in) is at 67.1% which still beats Aikman's second best season of 65.3% and only slightly trails Aikman's 1993 season in which he completed 69.1% of his passes.

 

Additionally, in the last two games Allen completed 63.4% (Tenn) and 51.9% (KC) of his passes.  In Aikman's 1993 season he had back to back games in weeks 6 and 7 of 60% completed and 47.4% completed.  That season also happened to be Aikman's 5th year in the league and the season in which he completed 69.1%.

 

Through his first three years Aikman averaged 58.6% completed while throwing 31 TDs vs 38 interceptions.  If we add in his rushing TDs it's 34 total TDs vs 38 picks.

 

Allen in his first 3 years to date?  58.7% completed, 46 passing TDs vs 25 interceptions.  Again, if we add in his rushing TDs it's 66 total TDs to 25 picks.

 

Oh and one more note over his first three seasons Aiken played in and started started 38 games - Allen has played in 34 and started 33 so far.  I could breakdown the first 16 games of each vs the second 16 games of each but I don't think that's necessary and it would be only uglier for Aikman.

 

So for Aikman a HOF QB to dismiss Allen at this point of his career and say he'll never be accurate when the trajectory and timeline Allen is on so far surpasses his own seems absurd to me.

 

One more note - I'd love to ask Aikman how come when Allen missed a throw it was about his accuracy issues but when Mahomes missed one it was because the ball is slippery and it's tough to throw in the weather?

 

  

 

It's not appropriate to compare Aikman's completion percentage to Allen's.  Different eras.

 

The last point is germaine.  It's the narrative on Allen and until he changes it (for more than 4 games) it will be.

 

Allen threw some absolute darts - both TD passes were deadly sharp.  Allen also threw some passes where his WR didn't help him out.  The Chiefs were playing them very physically and that seems to be how to get John Brown off his game.  So it's clearly BS to say "Allen is inaccurate", the question is clearly "when and why is he inaccurate?"

 

I just muted the announcers.  They weren't saying anything that added to the game for me.

[BaaadThingsMan]

Aikman was unprofessional last night, period. He was laughing at the rushing totals, its not like it was a record total or anything. Teams get run on, teams lose. Chiefs whipped the Bills but Aikman should act a little more professional or don't do the job #######!

[BaaadThingsMan]

Just now, Gene1973 said:

Bills fans are too sensative with this stuff.

 

Aikman is right about Allen until Allen proves him wrong. He didn't come close to doing that last night. Thst's on Allen, not Aikman. It's simple...

Allen is not a finished product and thats not what I said. If u are announcing a game you should have some class and not guffaw and laugh every time the RB gets a 6 yard gain. He acted unproffesionally and I thought came off as a complete unwatchable douche.

[BaaadThingsMan]

Just now, Gene1973 said:

He only came off that way because the team you root for was getting its ass kicked. If it was the Pats and not the Bills you likely wouldn't give a crap...

He doesn't talk that way about the Pats. Both him and Buck were complete asshats right off the bat. 

[BaaadThingsMan]

Just now, Gene1973 said:

Again, this whole woe is the Bills fan vs. national media. It's the Bills' job to change the narrative, they have not been able to do so since losing 4 straight SB's. I honestly don't know what ppl expect here. The Bills are not looked nationally at as winners for the 90's, they are looked upon as losers/a joke. This is where the narrative comes from and it will not stop until the Bills themselves stop it.

As a fan, I should be able to watch a game without the announcers picking sides and slanting the whole theme to one team the whole night. They were critical of Josh off the bat but when Mahomes threw innacurately it must have been the rain etc. Just sayin. I know the team and Josh need to earn respect but I don't tune in to hear the announcers throwing shade. Late in the game if u want to say I told u so then go ahead but the game started and so did their puke breath 

[Buftex]

3 hours ago, BananaB said:

Aikman wasn’t a great QB. Super overrated 

That may (or may not) be true, but he still has a perspective on the position that few others would have.

1 hour ago, BaaadThingsMan said:

As a fan, I should be able to watch a game without the announcers picking sides and slanting the whole theme to one team the whole night. They were critical of Josh off the bat but when Mahomes threw innacurately it must have been the rain etc. Just sayin. I know the team and Josh need to earn respect but I don't tune in to hear the announcers throwing shade. Late in the game if u want to say I told u so then go ahead but the game started and so did their puke breath 

Just watch with the sound off.  It will save you the grief.

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

3 hours ago, 2003Contenders said:

Well, Aikman was one of the "Never Joshers" during the pre-draft hype back in 2018, and was very critical of the Bills taking Allen over Rosen. That is one of the reasons that I was really hoping that we would see the Josh of the first 4 games last night, just so that Aikman would have to shut his mouth.

 

Alas, that was not meant to be as Josh clearly missed on a few passes.

 

As an aside, though, for those of you who are old like me and remember Aikman's playing days... he could NOT THROW A WET FOOTBALL. When playing in raining conditions, for whatever reason, he could not get a proper grip on the ball and it would not come out of his hand properly. Maybe he should have taken that into context with last night's game.

 

Regarding accuracy, it is true that during his era, Troy Aikman was one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. The Dallas practices were legendary as supposedly the balls on some days would never hit the ground. There are others in more recent years like Brady and Brees who have managed on pinpoint accuracy rather than having elite arm strength. We've seen Josh be deadly accurate, so it's not like he is incapable. I can't sit here and tell you that he will ever be a consistently 65% accurate QB -- that just may never be who he is. But he has so many other things in his arsenal that such a short-coming may not be the end of the world.

 

And, BTW, Terry Bradshaw was never a 60% completion guy either. A different era, I know, but that is one of the things about Josh Allen, he really is a throwback style QB.

 

The game last night was billed as Mahomes Against Allen, and Mahomes definitely won the first round. However, one QB had the benefit of RBs who rushed for a combined 300 yards, while the other led his team in rushing. One had very little pressure in his face all night, while the other was constantly besieged by unblocked defenders (and actually did a pretty good job averting the pressure).

 

Does Josh need to be better? Absolutely. The miss on the pass to a wide open Singletary in the first quarter as well as the miss to Beasley across the middle are passes he has to make -- and either one of those 3rd down completions could very well have resulted in a different outcome to this game.

Watch the 92 eagles cowboys games and you will see troy miss alot of passes in fact before the cowboys eagles game in dallas Jimmy Johnson was thinking about putting in there backup qb because at that time troy never played well against the eagles.

[Success]

The whole realm of sports punditry is now strictly, exclusively hot takes.

 

Allen absolutely tears it up for the 1st month. Even last week's game, outside of the 2nd INT, was pretty solid.

 

He has a rough one in bad weather, and suddenly he'll never be accurate.  I swear, it's hard to even listen to these guys anymore. I think I'll start watching games with the sound down & some nice classical music playing, or maybe Metallica, depending on the game.

 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BaaadThingsMan said:

As a fan, I should be able to watch a game without the announcers picking sides and slanting the whole theme to one team the whole night. They were critical of Josh off the bat but when Mahomes threw innacurately it must have been the rain etc. Just sayin. I know the team and Josh need to earn respect but I don't tune in to hear the announcers throwing shade. Late in the game if u want to say I told u so then go ahead but the game started and so did their puke breath 

?? - Mahomes completed 81 percent of his passes, had 8.7 ypa, and a rating of 128.4! One of these QBs was not like the other last night.