Aikman vs Allen

[FlaFitz1]

I wanted to offer an observation about Allen and Aikman.  I'm sorry in advance but it exactly what I was thinking last evening while watching the game and was wondering if others thought this too.

 

Yes, early in the game Aikman talked about Allen's pro day lauding how strong Allen's arm is but later Aikman said, paraphrasing, you can't teach accuracy and Allen isn't and won't be accurate.

 

That was coming out of the mouth of a HOF QB that played 12 seasons and in only half of those did he have a completion percentage above 60%.    Not in any of those 12 did he have a season above 70%.

 

Allen right now, after two stinkers, one in the rain (rather in a mostly dome like the one Aikman spent all of his home games in) is at 67.1% which still beats Aikman's second best season of 65.3% and only slightly trails Aikman's 1993 season in which he completed 69.1% of his passes.

 

Additionally, in the last two games Allen completed 63.4% (Tenn) and 51.9% (KC) of his passes.  In Aikman's 1993 season he had back to back games in weeks 6 and 7 of 60% completed and 47.4% completed.  That season also happened to be Aikman's 5th year in the league and the season in which he completed 69.1%.

 

Through his first three years Aikman averaged 58.6% completed while throwing 31 TDs vs 38 interceptions.  If we add in his rushing TDs it's 34 total TDs vs 38 picks.

 

Allen in his first 3 years to date?  58.7% completed, 46 passing TDs vs 25 interceptions.  Again, if we add in his rushing TDs it's 66 total TDs to 25 picks.

 

Oh and one more note over his first three seasons Aiken played in and started started 38 games - Allen has played in 34 and started 33 so far.  I could breakdown the first 16 games of each vs the second 16 games of each but I don't think that's necessary and it would be only uglier for Aikman.

 

So for Aikman a HOF QB to dismiss Allen at this point of his career and say he'll never be accurate when the trajectory and timeline Allen is on so far surpasses his own seems absurd to me.

 

One more note - I'd love to ask Aikman how come when Allen missed a throw it was about his accuracy issues but when Mahomes missed one it was because the ball is slippery and it's tough to throw in the weather?

 

  

[Stank_Nasty]

Bradshaw made it even better at halftime when he said he's a career 56% guy and thats all he'll ever be. Solid take there.

[ClemsonBills]

Aikman loves him some Aikman

[LabattBlue]

Aikman said something bad about Allen, so let’s compare two QB’s who played 25 years apart? 

[Your Brown Eye]

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, FlaFitz1 said:

I wanted to offer an observation about Allen and Aikman.  I'm sorry in advance but it exactly what I was thinking last evening while watching the game and was wondering if others thought this too.

 

Yes, early in the game Aikman talked about Allen's pro day lauding how strong Allen's arm is but later Aikman said, paraphrasing, you can't teach accuracy and Allen isn't and won't be accurate.

 

That was coming out of the mouth of a HOF QB that played 12 seasons and in only half of those did he have a completion percentage above 60%.    Not in any of those 12 did he have a season above 70%.

 

Allen right now, after two stinkers, one in the rain (rather in a mostly dome like the one Aikman spent all of his home games in) is at 67.1% which still beats Aikman's second best season of 65.3% and only slightly trails Aikman's 1993 season in which he completed 69.1% of his passes.

 

Additionally, in the last two games Allen completed 63.4% (Tenn) and 51.9% (KC) of his passes.  In Aikman's 1993 season he had back to back games in weeks 6 and 7 of 60% completed and 47.4% completed.  That season also happened to be Aikman's 5th year in the league and the season in which he completed 69.1%.

 

Through his first three years Aikman averaged 58.6% completed while throwing 31 TDs vs 38 interceptions.  If we add in his rushing TDs it's 34 total TDs vs 38 picks.

 

Allen in his first 3 years to date?  58.7% completed, 46 passing TDs vs 25 interceptions.  Again, if we add in his rushing TDs it's 66 total TDs to 25 picks.

 

Oh and one more note over his first three seasons Aiken played in and started started 38 games - Allen has played in 34 and started 33 so far.  I could breakdown the first 16 games of each vs the second 16 games of each but I don't think that's necessary and it would be only uglier for Aikman.

 

So for Aikman a HOF QB to dismiss Allen at this point of his career and say he'll never be accurate when the trajectory and timeline Allen is on so far surpasses his own seems absurd to me.

 

One more note - I'd love to ask Aikman how come when Allen missed a throw it was about his accuracy issues but when Mahomes missed one it was because the ball is slippery and it's tough to throw in the weather?

 

  

Different era. Aikman was regarded by pretty much everyone who followed the sport as the most accurate thrower in the league during his prime.

[LABILLBACKER]

I never considered Aikman as a great qb. He was surrounded by an amazing OL and HOF RB/WR. Josh will probably always be a 60% guy and I guarantee you this accurate start will come back to earth as the season progresses. Jim's career % was 60.1 and he had 7 seasons under 60%.  Also drops this season have again been a little higher than we would like.  I'm just grateful we don't have a Mayfield/ Rosen type qb. Josh will be fine once he truly figures out the game. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by LABILLBACKER

[dave mcbride]

9 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I never considered Aikman as a great qb. He was surrounded by an amazing OL and HOF RB/WR. Josh will probably always be a 60% guy and I guarantee you this accurate start will come back to earth as the season progresses. 

I hate him as an announcer, but he was a phenomenal QB. He was the most accurate medium-deep to deep thrower of his era, and it opened everything up.

Just for some perspective, look at his accuracy during his prime from 1991-1996 (before all of the back injuries). Those numbers in that era were extremely high. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AikmTr00.htm.

 

from 1992-1995, the Cowboys’ passing offense was 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st in net yards per passing attempt.

Edited October 20, 2020 by dave mcbride

[Chuck Wagon]

Allen had 2 40 yard dimes he dropped on Brown and Diggs in the endzone.  Those would have been good, but not amazing catches.  Those two are brought in and it's a completely different conversation today.  

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

15 minutes ago, FlaFitz1 said:

I wanted to offer an observation about Allen and Aikman.  I'm sorry in advance but it exactly what I was thinking last evening while watching the game and was wondering if others thought this too.

 

Yes, early in the game Aikman talked about Allen's pro day lauding how strong Allen's arm is but later Aikman said, paraphrasing, you can't teach accuracy and Allen isn't and won't be accurate.

 

That was coming out of the mouth of a HOF QB that played 12 seasons and in only half of those did he have a completion percentage above 60%.    Not in any of those 12 did he have a season above 70%.

 

Allen right now, after two stinkers, one in the rain (rather in a mostly dome like the one Aikman spent all of his home games in) is at 67.1% which still beats Aikman's second best season of 65.3% and only slightly trails Aikman's 1993 season in which he completed 69.1% of his passes.

 

Additionally, in the last two games Allen completed 63.4% (Tenn) and 51.9% (KC) of his passes.  In Aikman's 1993 season he had back to back games in weeks 6 and 7 of 60% completed and 47.4% completed.  That season also happened to be Aikman's 5th year in the league and the season in which he completed 69.1%.

 

Through his first three years Aikman averaged 58.6% completed while throwing 31 TDs vs 38 interceptions.  If we add in his rushing TDs it's 34 total TDs vs 38 picks.

 

Allen in his first 3 years to date?  58.7% completed, 46 passing TDs vs 25 interceptions.  Again, if we add in his rushing TDs it's 66 total TDs to 25 picks.

 

Oh and one more note over his first three seasons Aiken played in and started started 38 games - Allen has played in 34 and started 33 so far.  I could breakdown the first 16 games of each vs the second 16 games of each but I don't think that's necessary and it would be only uglier for Aikman.

 

So for Aikman a HOF QB to dismiss Allen at this point of his career and say he'll never be accurate when the trajectory and timeline Allen is on so far surpasses his own seems absurd to me.

 

One more note - I'd love to ask Aikman how come when Allen missed a throw it was about his accuracy issues but when Mahomes missed one it was because the ball is slippery and it's tough to throw in the weather?

 

  

So you are saying that we just need to find the best RB, assemble the greatest O-Line ever, find a 5x pro bowl TE, and field a Cowboys defense which is light years of where we are right now for Allen to start winning. I guess I can wait 10 more years for that.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Allen had 2 40 yard dimes he dropped on Brown and Diggs in the endzone.  Those would have been good, but not amazing catches.  Those two are brought in and it's a completely different conversation today.  

Both catches would have been amazing because the coverage was there. Neither receiver was actually open and both passes were defended by Chiefs DBs. The Brown pass was actually broken up.

[Chuck Wagon]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Both catches would have been amazing because the coverage was there. Neither receiver was actually open and both passes were defended by Chiefs DBs. The Brown pass was actually broken up.

 

 

Both passes were throws maybe 6 other QBs in the league could make.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Both passes were throws maybe 6 other QBs in the league could make.

Definitely great throws! But he threw into tight coverage. It was a problem all night, and not that after the Diggs throw, he stopped trying to go deep. He looked a bit lost a few times after that. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by dave mcbride

[2003Contenders]

Well, Aikman was one of the "Never Joshers" during the pre-draft hype back in 2018, and was very critical of the Bills taking Allen over Rosen. That is one of the reasons that I was really hoping that we would see the Josh of the first 4 games last night, just so that Aikman would have to shut his mouth.

 

Alas, that was not meant to be as Josh clearly missed on a few passes.

 

As an aside, though, for those of you who are old like me and remember Aikman's playing days... he could NOT THROW A WET FOOTBALL. When playing in raining conditions, for whatever reason, he could not get a proper grip on the ball and it would not come out of his hand properly. Maybe he should have taken that into context with last night's game.

 

Regarding accuracy, it is true that during his era, Troy Aikman was one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. The Dallas practices were legendary as supposedly the balls on some days would never hit the ground. There are others in more recent years like Brady and Brees who have managed on pinpoint accuracy rather than having elite arm strength. We've seen Josh be deadly accurate, so it's not like he is incapable. I can't sit here and tell you that he will ever be a consistently 65% accurate QB -- that just may never be who he is. But he has so many other things in his arsenal that such a short-coming may not be the end of the world.

 

And, BTW, Terry Bradshaw was never a 60% completion guy either. A different era, I know, but that is one of the things about Josh Allen, he really is a throwback style QB.

 

The game last night was billed as Mahomes Against Allen, and Mahomes definitely won the first round. However, one QB had the benefit of RBs who rushed for a combined 300 yards, while the other led his team in rushing. One had very little pressure in his face all night, while the other was constantly besieged by unblocked defenders (and actually did a pretty good job averting the pressure).

 

Does Josh need to be better? Absolutely. The miss on the pass to a wide open Singletary in the first quarter as well as the miss to Beasley across the middle are passes he has to make -- and either one of those 3rd down completions could very well have resulted in a different outcome to this game.

[The Jokeman]

31 minutes ago, FlaFitz1 said:

 

 

One more note - I'd love to ask Aikman how come when Allen missed a throw it was about his accuracy issues but when Mahomes missed one it was because the ball is slippery and it's tough to throw in the weather?

 

  

It's a new era where rules help QBs so sadly you can't just compare stats to stats, if you're going to follow that analysis you should compare Allen to other QBs that have played from 2010 onward. I agree Allen is better than some of the narratives that we see from the national media that doesn't see him weekly yet Josh had a below average night last night plain and simple. 

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

Well, Aikman was one of the "Never Joshers" during the pre-draft hype back in 2018, and was very critical of the Bills taking Allen over Rosen. That is one of the reasons that I was really hoping that we would see the Josh of the first 4 games last night, just so that Aikman would have to shut his mouth.

 

Alas, that was not meant to be as Josh clearly missed on a few passes.

 

As an aside, though, for those of you who are old like me and remember Aikman's playing days... he could NOT THROW A WET FOOTBALL. When playing in raining conditions, for whatever reason, he could not get a proper grip on the ball and it would not come out of his hand properly. Maybe he should have taken that into context with last night's game.

 

Regarding accuracy, it is true that during his era, Troy Aikman was one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. The Dallas practices were legendary as supposedly the balls on some days would never hit the ground. There are others in more recent years like Brady and Brees who have managed on pinpoint accuracy rather than having elite arm strength. We've seen Josh be deadly accurate, so it's not like he is incapable. I can't sit here and tell you that he will ever be a consistently 65% accurate QB -- that just may never be who he is. But he has so many other things in his arsenal that such a short-coming may not be the end of the world.

 

And, BTW, Terry Bradshaw was never a 60% completion guy either. A different era, I know, but that is one of the things about Josh Allen, he really is a throwback style QB.

 

The game last night was billed as Mahomes Against Allen, and Mahomes definitely won the first round. However, one QB had the benefit of RBs who rushed for a combined 300 yards, while the other led his team in rushing. One had very little pressure in his face all night, while the other was constantly besieged by unblocked defenders (and actually did a pretty good job averting the pressure).

 

Does Josh need to be better? Absolutely. The miss on the pass to a wide open Singletary in the first quarter as well as the miss to Beasley across the middle are passes he has to make -- and either one of those 3rd down completions could very well have resulted in a different outcome to this game.

Good post. The miss to a wide open Diggs in the EZ was the worst one, but the bad miss to Beasley on the first possession of the third quarter was Pretty bad too because they really needed to stay on the field.

[Bangarang]

Not a fun of Aikman but Allen was bad last night and didn’t do much to silence his critics.

[Buftex]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I hate him as an announcer, but he was a phenomenal QB. He was the most accurate medium-deep to deep thrower of his era, and it opened everything up.

Just for some perspective, look at his accuracy during his prime from 1991-1996 (before all of the back injuries). Those numbers in that era were extremely high. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AikmTr00.htm.

 

from 1992-1995, the Cowboys’ passing offense was 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st in net yards per passing attempt.

I think sometimes people lose perspective that a QB with a 56% completion percentage in the late- 60's to mid-90's was pretty common.  Guys like Aikman and Montana stood out, because they were always so much more accurate.  Now, anything less than 62-65% is considered mediocre.  Just another way the game has changed.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Buftex

[DuckyBoys]

Aikman is obnoxiously overrated  Played behind the greatest O line in nfl history  Had the nfl's most dominant running game with the all time back in Emmitt.  Was asked to do very little At no point did he ever carry that team  He was absolutely horrific the first two seasons before they bamboozled the Vikings into sending a few drafts worth of picks over for Herschel 

[BananaB]

Aikman wasn’t a great QB. Super overrated