GunnerBill Posted October 20, 2020 Posted October 20, 2020 14 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Come on. Who cares about college. Tim Tebow won in college. And sorry, Dallas has had a strong roster, you have praised it even. Dak hasn't won 13 games. Put Aaron Rodgers on that Dallas team and they win 13 games. Put Russel Wilson with those weapons together in Dallas and they win 13 games. Dak didnt even make the playoffs and was a lucky onside kick away from being winless on the season before getting hurt. Sorry, he's not proven he can win in the NFL yet. And while we sit here and debate it, the guys who REALLY know Dak also haven't been so keen to dump that money into him yet either. Why is that? If he's a slam dunk winner, they would have paid him a while ago. Im not saying Dak isnt better than Dalton, because he clearly is. Im saying the same thing I said when this convo first came up...Dak hasn't earned the size of the pay day he is demanding. Dak won 13 games as a rookie. One of two division titles in 4 years. He isn't Rodgers or Wilson. But he is closer to them than he is Andy Dalton. He is a top 10 guy. Dalton was a 16-20 guy even at his peak. 1 minute ago, PetermansRedemption said: What I find impressive is that Dak still leads the league in passing. And he hasn’t played in a game and a half. Andy Dalton wouldn't lead the league in passing if he played 18 games.
Alphadawg7 Posted October 20, 2020 Posted October 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Dak won 13 games as a rookie. One of two division titles in 4 years. He isn't Rodgers or Wilson. But he is closer to them than he is Andy Dalton. He is a top 10 guy. Dalton was a 16-20 guy even at his peak. Andy Dalton wouldn't lead the league in passing if he played 18 games. I mean not sure why you keep telling me Dalton is better than Dak, I have said that myself many times. You seem to keep veering widely from my point, which was solely about the amount he was seeking.
GunnerBill Posted October 20, 2020 Posted October 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: I mean not sure why you keep telling me Dalton is better than Dak, I have said that myself many times. You seem to keep veering widely from my point, which was solely about the amount he was seeking. I have directly responded to that point already. You keep saying it doesn't make it any more right. You also keep saying it makes no difference to wins and losses and "Dak isn't a winner". I don't know what your definition of "a winner" is? But a guy who has a win - loss ratio of comfortably over .500 and has won 2 division titles and a playoff game in his first 4 years in the league strikes me as someone to whom that moniker could be attached. If winner means "a championship" then you end up paying Nick Foles and Joe Flacco but not Deshaun Watson, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen. Dak is still underrated nationally and he is particularly underrated by Bills fans I feel.
Thurman#1 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, FUTURIST said: lol. He has 1 playoff win. Paying him top 5 money is like paying Watson top 5 money. Moronic. How is that 1-5 Texans team doing with their overpaid QB? Top 5 paid NFL Quarterbacks. Rogers and Goff tied for 5th highest paid. 1 Mahomes. Won the Superbowl. 5-1 in 2020 2 Watson. OVERPAID. 1 playoff win handed to him by Bills. 1-5 in 2020. 3 Wilson. Won the Superbowl. 5-0 in 2020. 4 Roethlisberger. Won the Superbowl. 5-0 in 2020. 5 Goff. Lost in the Superbowl 4-2 in 2020. 5 Rogers Won in Superbowl winner. 4-1 in 2020. No, he doesn't have one playoff win. The Dallas Cowboys have one playoff win. Wins are a team thing. Playing quarterback is how you judge quarterbacks. Dak has played quarterback well for a while and at a top 5 - 8 level for the last two years. That's how you judge a QB. Mahomes never won a Super Bowl. The Chiefs did. Watson is a top three QB, probably. Wilson didn't win a Super Bowl. The Seahawks did. Put Wilson or Mahomes on the Jets and they don't get close to a Super Bowl despite the fact that they're terrific QBs. You don't seem to get this, but teams win. One player doesn't, except maybe in tennis or golf, that kind of sport. Dak's a top 5 - 8 guy. Those guys get paid top two or three. Look at Cousins. Look at Watson. Is he worth not just #1 but way above the current #1? That's a question worth asking.
Alphadawg7 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: I have directly responded to that point already. You keep saying it doesn't make it any more right. You also keep saying it makes no difference to wins and losses and "Dak isn't a winner". I don't know what your definition of "a winner" is? But a guy who has a win - loss ratio of comfortably over .500 and has won 2 division titles and a playoff game in his first 4 years in the league strikes me as someone to whom that moniker could be attached. If winner means "a championship" then you end up paying Nick Foles and Joe Flacco but not Deshaun Watson, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen. Dak is still underrated nationally and he is particularly underrated by Bills fans I feel. Divison titles in the worst division in football and one was his rookie year where he also didnt have to do a whole lot compared to now. Lets not pretend Dallas is meeting expectations the last few years. You like to use these words to mask the gross underachieving of that team. Everyone knows they are underachieving, so lets now try and make it sound more rosey than its been. So I am sorry. There is nothing at all you can say to convince me that Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, or Russell Wilson dont lead that same Cowboys team last year to the playoffs. Seattles defense is atrocious and Seattle looks to be the SB favorite in the NFC. Sorry, a guy making as much money as Dak wants should be able to get that Dallas team last year into the playoffs, ESPECIALLY in the worst division in football.
Mr. WEO Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 Fun fact: in their last 2 losses, the Cowboys have given up 568 yards rushing! That's mind blowing. Has too be an NFL record.
Thurman#1 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I have directly responded to that point already. You keep saying it doesn't make it any more right. You also keep saying it makes no difference to wins and losses and "Dak isn't a winner". I don't know what your definition of "a winner" is? But a guy who has a win - loss ratio of comfortably over .500 and has won 2 division titles and a playoff game in his first 4 years in the league strikes me as someone to whom that moniker could be attached. If winner means "a championship" then you end up paying Nick Foles and Joe Flacco but not Deshaun Watson, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen. Dak is still underrated nationally and he is particularly underrated by Bills fans I feel. Indeed. Nicely put.
Thurman#1 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: Divison titles in the worst division in football and one was his rookie year where he also didnt have to do a whole lot compared to now. Lets not pretend Dallas is meeting expectations the last few years. You like to use these words to mask the gross underachieving of that team. Everyone knows they are underachieving, so lets now try and make it sound more rosey than its been. So I am sorry. There is nothing at all you can say to convince me that Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, or Russell Wilson dont lead that same Cowboys team last year to the playoffs. Seattles defense is atrocious and Seattle looks to be the SB favorite in the NFC. Sorry, a guy making as much money as Dak wants should be able to get that Dallas team last year into the playoffs, ESPECIALLY in the worst division in football. You're right that there's a lot of underachieving going on there. And you're also right who's doing it. "...gross underachieving of that team." Yup. Precisely. Dak is playing like a top ten QB. IMO in the last couple of years more like top 7 or 8 and often better. And that's all you can expect of a quarterback. You can't expect him to run in like a hero and stop the run at DT. You can't expect him to both play guard and throw the ball. You can't expect him to guard the wide receivers. Great QBs don't win Super Bowls unless they're surrounded by good teams. And you don't pay a guy based on how good his team is. If you did, you'd have given Trent Dilfer the BBBBBIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGG money. And you wouldn't have paid Aaron Rodgers squat after the Packers went 7-9 and 6-9-1 two years in a row. You pay a QB - in fact you pay any player - based on how he plays his position. Dak plays the position very very well. You compare him to Rodgers, Mahomes and Russell Wilson and find him wanting in the comparison, ignoring the fact that Bill just finished saying, "He isn't Rodgers or Wilson. But he is closer to them than he is Andy Dalton." You're not making a point there, except that you agree with Bill about who Dak is in terms of those comparisons. Edited October 21, 2020 by Thurman#1
Thurman#1 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 7 hours ago, machine gun kelly said: Sad part is Dak gambled and lost. He had $175 mil. over 5 years and was greedy. Now, he has a terrible injury, and hopefully gets back to health, but who knows if Jerrah wants that deal now. I like the guy and he is an unsung hero as he has tremendous stats. He wasn’t the reason they didn’t make the playoffs. He did gamble and lose. It's hard for me to feel sad about it, though. He might not get $175 mill, but I'm pretty sure he can still be comfortable with the - what? $130 mill? that he will make. And for those who couldn't understand what motivation Tre White had for signing that contract when he might have gotten more down the line, Dak is an exemplary cautionary tale and explanation.
Paulus Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 How many fumbles did Zeke have on Monday? 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: Fun fact: in their last 2 losses, the Cowboys have given up 568 yards rushing! That's mind blowing. Has too be an NFL record. Buffalo Bills: 1
GreggTX Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 I won't say Dalton is as good as Dak, but he'll be fine and gives Dallas a chance to win their division.
Buffalo716 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 2 hours ago, GreggTX said: I won't say Dalton is as good as Dak, but he'll be fine and gives Dallas a chance to win their division. At 6-10 lmao
GunnerBill Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Divison titles in the worst division in football and one was his rookie year where he also didnt have to do a whole lot compared to now. Lets not pretend Dallas is meeting expectations the last few years. You like to use these words to mask the gross underachieving of that team. Everyone knows they are underachieving, so lets now try and make it sound more rosey than its been. So I am sorry. There is nothing at all you can say to convince me that Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, or Russell Wilson dont lead that same Cowboys team last year to the playoffs. Seattles defense is atrocious and Seattle looks to be the SB favorite in the NFC. Sorry, a guy making as much money as Dak wants should be able to get that Dallas team last year into the playoffs, ESPECIALLY in the worst division in football. So they are the only guys you pay? Rodgers, Mahomes and Wilson? Nobody is arguing Dak is as good as those guys. But you can't only pay those three.
Poleshifter Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 21 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Their record may not be different. But their points differential would be massively so. Dak was their best player. And, at 2-4, they are still undisputed at the top of the NFC East! I REALLY enjoyed watching that game.
Alphadawg7 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: You're right that there's a lot of underachieving going on there. And you're also right who's doing it. "...gross underachieving of that team." Yup. Precisely. Dak is playing like a top ten QB. IMO in the last couple of years more like top 7 or 8 and often better. And that's all you can expect of a quarterback. You can't expect him to run in like a hero and stop the run at DT. You can't expect him to both play guard and throw the ball. You can't expect him to guard the wide receivers. Great QBs don't win Super Bowls unless they're surrounded by good teams. And you don't pay a guy based on how good his team is. If you did, you'd have given Trent Dilfer the BBBBBIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGG money. And you wouldn't have paid Aaron Rodgers squat after the Packers went 7-9 and 6-9-1 two years in a row. You pay a QB - in fact you pay any player - based on how he plays his position. Dak plays the position very very well. You compare him to Rodgers, Mahomes and Russell Wilson and find him wanting in the comparison, ignoring the fact that Bill just finished saying, "He isn't Rodgers or Wilson. But he is closer to them than he is Andy Dalton." You're not making a point there, except that you agree with Bill about who Dak is in terms of those comparisons. So we are in agreement he’s not a tier 1 QB. You don’t pay a tier 2 QB like he is tier 1. When has that ever worked out? Show me a SB champion with a tier 2 QB who was one of the 2 highest paid QBs in the league. Go ahead, find me one. I’d say I would wait, but since it’s never happened, there’s no point. When you invest that kind of money in a QB, he better be able to help your team over come other shortcomings because it makes it difficult to build a balanced good team around them with that cap choking contract. Dak has had enough around him for that team to do better. Yet that team hasn’t. There is no disputing this. Dallas themselves see it every day have resisted paying him what he wants. They have Cooper and Zeke what they wanted, but not Dak. Why do you think that is? Something is there they are not sold on that keeps them from agreeing he’s not worth that much. So clearly Dallas sees it differently than you, the people who see him everyday and know a million times more about him.
Alphadawg7 Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 6 hours ago, GunnerBill said: So they are the only guys you pay? Rodgers, Mahomes and Wilson? Nobody is arguing Dak is as good as those guys. But you can't only pay those three. Yes, those are among the few I pay what Dak is asking for. I didn’t say not to pay Dak, I said he hasn’t earned what he is asking for. He hasn’t proven he belongs in that company of those QBs. I said the contract he wants is a mistake. Clearly Dallas felt the same way. Show me one Tier 2 (or lower) QB who was paid as a top 3 QB that has ever won a SB. Hint, it’s never happened. Why? Because if you invest that much money into a QB, they better be able mask and over come the inevitable deficiencies in the roster because that cap choking contract is going to make it difficult to build a great overall roster. Dak has not proven to able to do that. They should have been winless this year with him under center before getting hurt had it not been for the inept onside recovery by the Falcons. They missed the playoffs last year. And in the worst division in the NFL. You really think Dallas misses the playoffs last year with Wilson, Rodgers, or Mahomes as the QB? You think they are a one win team this year with those guys under center? I think not. Can anyone with a straight face say that Seattle’s or Green Bays roster right now is much better than Dallas? No, you can’t. Seattle’s defense is atrocious too and GB defense is pretty bad and has less weapons on offense. Yet those teams have combined for one loss on the season while Dallas barely had one win with Dak before he was hurt. And Seattle has Rams, AZ, and SF in their division. GB has a stronger division than the NFC east too, and GB won 13 games last year. So yeah, I pay those other guys what Dak is asking for, but not Dak until he proves he can get the team over that hump.
GunnerBill Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Yes, those are among the few I pay what Dak is asking for. I didn’t say not to pay Dak, I said he hasn’t earned what he is asking for. He hasn’t proven he belongs in that company of those QBs. I said the contract he wants is a mistake. Clearly Dallas felt the same way. Show me one Tier 2 (or lower) QB who was paid as a top 3 QB that has ever won a SB. Hint, it’s never happened. Why? Because if you invest that much money into a QB, they better be able mask and over come the inevitable deficiencies in the roster because that cap choking contract is going to make it difficult to build a great overall roster. Dak has not proven to able to do that. They should have been winless this year with him under center before getting hurt had it not been for the inept onside recovery by the Falcons. They missed the playoffs last year. And in the worst division in the NFL. You really think Dallas misses the playoffs last year with Wilson, Rodgers, or Mahomes as the QB? You think they are a one win team this year with those guys under center? I think not. Can anyone with a straight face say that Seattle’s or Green Bays roster right now is much better than Dallas? No, you can’t. Seattle’s defense is atrocious too and GB defense is pretty bad and has less weapons on offense. Yet those teams have combined for one loss on the season while Dallas barely had one win with Dak before he was hurt. And Seattle has Rams, AZ, and SF in their division. GB has a stronger division than the NFC east too, and GB won 13 games last year. So yeah, I pay those other guys what Dak is asking for, but not Dak until he proves he can get the team over that hump. Then you don't have a Quarterback. Because I am afraid, that is the market. The second tier guys don't start at a "second tier" price point. So you are saying you would only pay Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, Watson. Well Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garropolo, Carson Wentz, Jared Goff, Derek Carr….. they are all second tier Quarterbacks.... (might argue 2/3 of them are third tier but besides the point). They all re-set the market when they came up. It is just the way the market works. You pay those guys top of the market and for the first year that looks too expensive. By the end of the third year of Carr's deal he was the 15th most expensive QB. I think most people would say "that is about his market value" the next two years he will slip further down that list and look "cheap" although from a pure salary cap perspective it is normally the big numbers accounted for at the end. Wentz went 2nd on the list when he signed just before the 2019 season. He is already down to 8th. Worrying about Dak going in with a number that makes him 3rd behind Mahomes and Watson now is crazy. Because if they had done that this summer then by 2022 he would likely be somewhere 8th-10th. Which is what his true market value is. Edited October 21, 2020 by GunnerBill
Chicken Boo Posted October 21, 2020 Posted October 21, 2020 On 10/20/2020 at 9:27 AM, Alphadawg7 said: It’s like when everyone wanted to pay Cousins and it was clear he wasn’t worth the money he was gonna get. Dak > Cousins but the situation is similar because Dak is seeking an insane amount of money, and an amount that exceeds what he has led them to on the field. Dak's not the problem. The offense produces. (even though they should be running it through Zeke)
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