"Andy Dalton will be just as good as Dak on the Cowboys!"

[Alphadawg7]

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Their record may not be different. But their points differential would be massively so. Dak was their best player.

 

I never said Dak wasn’t a good player.  I said he doesn’t win enough for the money he is asking for.  
 

And clearly I’m right, because once again, they aren’t winning this year, and after they changed coaches.  Same Dallas team.  
 

I said paying him what he’s asking for on top of Copper and Zeke is a mistake because the rest of the roster is going to be harder to fill out and this team isn’t going to go anywhere.

 

Dak puts up stats, but he doesn’t win.  So last I checked, games are won based on the scoreboard, not individual stats.  And my biggest argument against paying Dak what he was asking for is that despite his stats, it isn’t good enough to carry the team.  He’s NOT Aaron Rodgers, but wants to be paid more than him.  He’s not Russel Wilson, but wants to be paid more than him.

 

Look at those two rosters.  Seattle’s defense is as bad as Dallas, might be worse.  Yet Seattle is dominating, and why is that?  Because of Wilson.  
 

Green Bay has no where near the offensive weapons Dallas has, and their only top end WR been hurt multiple games this year.  Yet Rodgers and GB until this week had been dominant, and they also dont have a good defense.

 

Daks excuse was coaching.  They changed that, yet still same results.  Again, not saying Dak isn’t a good QB, I said the contract he wants doesn’t match the results.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I never said Dak wasn’t a good player.  I said he doesn’t win enough for the money he is asking for.  
 

And clearly I’m right, because once again, they aren’t winning this year, and after they changed coaches.  Same Dallas team.  
 

I said paying him what he’s asking for on top of Copper and Zeke is a mistake because the rest of the roster is going to be harder to fill out and this team isn’t going to go anywhere.

 

Dak puts up stats, but he doesn’t win.  So last I checked, games are won based on the scoreboard, not individual stats.  And my biggest argument against paying Dak what he was asking for is that despite his stats, it isn’t good enough to carry the team.  He’s NOT Aaron Rodgers, but wants to be paid more than him.  He’s not Russel Wilson, but wants to be paid more than him.

 

Look at those two rosters.  Seattle’s defense is as bad as Dallas, might be worse.  Yet Seattle is dominating, and why is that?  Because of Wilson.  
 

Green Bay has no where near the offensive weapons Dallas has, and their only top end WR been hurt multiple games this year.  Yet Rodgers and GB until this week had been dominant, and they also dont have a good defense.

 

Daks excuse was coaching.  They changed that, yet still same results.  Again, not saying Dak isn’t a good QB, I said the contract he wants doesn’t match the results.

 

But he still has a winning record. A comfortably above .500 record in fact. He has one fewer division titles in his first 4 years as Tony Romo had in 10. They are not failing to win because of Dak and anyone who thinks they are has not watched the Cowboys.

 

This year their defense is on such a historically awful pace this year that it could overtake the atrocious 2015 Saints defense that even sure fire HoFer Drew Brees couldn't overcome. Seattle's defense is not worse. Maybe on paper it is (Dallas better up front, Seattle better back end) but on the field, no way. Seattle might give up yards but they are middle of the pack points wise. Dallas is giving up 36 points per game, it is worse than 31st best by 4.3 points per game! That is historically awful. Dallas have hired an outdated clown to coach their defense.

 

As for him wanting more than Rodgers and Wilson..... we have done this to death. It is how NFL contracts work. The next guy to come due gets paid. If they had given Dak what he asked for in 2019 it was actually right where Rodgers is. They turned him down. The money he asked for in 2020 was admittedly more than Rodgers and Wilson. But even then he was willing to take Wilson money for a shorter deal (he would have taken $35m per if they would agree to 4 years, but the Cowboys were only willing to go to that number for 5 and Dak wanted a big bump for that fifth year).

 

The question you have to ask is "is Dak Prescott a top 10 NFL QB?" and then answer is undoubtedly yes in my mind. If that is the case then don't worry about giving him top 3 or 4 money. Derek Carr was the best paid QB in the league when he signed. Three years later he is 15th. It is the market. Granted - the covid situation might have longer term impacts on the cap - that is true. It does make it a more complicated situation. Equally his injury makes the decision Dallas need to make now really difficult. But people should be in no doubt that what they will see over the next 10 weeks is the myth that "any competent NFL QB could do what Dak does" is just that - it's a myth. He is much better than he gets credit for. He is much better than Andy Dalton. He is much better than a prime Alex Smith. He is not an elite top 3 or 4 Quarterback.... but if you think you should only pay someone who is then you are going to be looking for a long while.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, prissythecat said:

 

Was Dalton the main problem during the Cardinals game?    The Dallas O line is a mess now and Elliot didn't do so hot?  Dalton isn't great . But if supporting cast is good like it was during his Bengals playoff days,  he can game manage .

 

Agreed. Nobody is saying Dalton is the main issue either. Just that he isn't close to Dak. This mess of a team was in each of its first 4 games right to the  end because of Dak. It got blown out with Dalton. 

 

And I said it about the defense week 1 when they only gave up 20 to LAR. I said "man that scheme is awful it is the same ***** Rex ran here." It is absolutely atrocious. 

[Alphadawg7]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agreed. Nobody is saying Dalton is the main issue either. Just that he isn't close to Dak. This mess of a team was in each of its first 4 games right to the  end because of Dak. It got blown out with Dalton. 

 

And I said it about the defense week 1 when they only gave up 20 to LAR. I said "man that scheme is awful it is the same ***** Rex ran here." It is absolutely atrocious. 

 

It was never about is Andy close to Dak.  It was about building that team.  And dumping all that money into the offense, and now being faced to pay Dak the over the top amount he was asking for, was not a recipe for more wins on the field IMO.   

 

So the question was always would their record be that much different with Dalton or Dak?  And so far, its not given Dak wasn't winning again.  I never had an issue with so much paying Dak, I had an issue paying Dak after they dumped all that money into Zeke and Cooper.  I said repeatedly they are not going to be able to build a good enough team around him and then will be stuck with those contracts.  You for one argued the opposite, but so far, the results speak for themselves.  You argued the GM there has done a good job, something I argued against.  Just like you argued the GM in Philly has done a good job, something I said was crazy and was a terrible job.  Both those playing out right now, and I feel comfortable in my original arguments.

 

Once again, this team is grossly underachieving, and after the excuse "Its Jason Garrett" has been removed, although I did agree he was not a good HC and needed to go.  Nothing against Dak, wish him well in his recovery, he's a good QB...but...he has yet to show he can be a winner.  And when I am paying out that exorbitant amount of money, I want to see some evidence he can win.  

 

Same issue with Cousins.  Put up some impressive stats, but he wasn't a winner.  He wasn't getting the job done, and just like Dallas, his own team was hesitant on paying him what he wanted until he showed he could lead the team to post season success.  He did not.  He moved on.  He is not as good as he is getting paid.  

 

Dak is better than Cousins, but at the end of the day, Dak wants cap choking money.  I think it says a lot that a team willing to spend big on players is reluctant to make the commitment to him that he is looking for.  Just like Washington.  They seem him every day, they study the film, they seem him daily as a leader around that team.  Something is making Dallas hesitant...and end of the day, this roster has grossly underachieved the last few years and in the worst division in football too.  

 

QB's want that big payday, they get the most scrutiny.  And for me, I just don't see that those elite traits to will their team to win games.  I mean, they struggle to beat bad teams, let alone good teams.  

Edited October 20, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, FUTURIST said:

 

Dak is not worth big money.  Everyone sees that.  Anyone who thinks he deserves top 5 QB money is insane.

 

 

Then the world is insane. Top five money? He absolutely deserves that.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Thurman#1

[BITE ME]

17 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Then the world is insane. Top five money? He absolutely deserves that.

 

lol.  He has 1 playoff win.  Paying him top 5 money is like paying Watson top 5 money. Moronic.  How is that 1-5 Texans team doing with their overpaid QB?  

 

Top 5 paid NFL Quarterbacks. Rogers and Goff tied for 5th highest paid.

 

1 Mahomes.  Won the Superbowl.  5-1 in 2020

2 Watson. OVERPAID. 1 playoff win handed to him by Bills.  1-5 in 2020.

3 Wilson. Won the Superbowl. 5-0 in 2020.

4 Roethlisberger. Won the Superbowl. 5-0 in 2020.

5 Goff.  Lost in the Superbowl 4-2 in 2020.

5 Rogers Won in Superbowl winner. 4-1 in 2020.

Edited October 20, 2020 by FUTURIST

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

It was never about is Andy close to Dak.  It was about building that team.  And dumping all that money into the offense, and now being faced to pay Dak the over the top amount he was asking for, was not a recipe for more wins on the field IMO.   

 

So the question was always would their record be that much different with Dalton or Dak?  And so far, its not given Dak wasn't winning again.  I never had an issue with so much paying Dak, I had an issue paying Dak after they dumped all that money into Zeke and Cooper.  I said repeatedly they are not going to be able to build a good enough team around him and then will be stuck with those contracts.  You for one argued the opposite, but so far, the results speak for themselves.  You argued the GM there has done a good job, something I argued against.  Just like you argued the GM in Philly has done a good job, something I said was crazy and was a terrible job.  Both those playing out right now, and I feel comfortable in my original arguments.

 

Once again, this team is grossly underachieving, and after the excuse "Its Jason Garrett" has been removed, although I did agree he was not a good HC and needed to go.  Nothing against Dak, wish him well in his recovery, he's a good QB...but...he has yet to show he can be a winner.  And when I am paying out that exorbitant amount of money, I want to see some evidence he can win.  

 

Same issue with Cousins.  Put up some impressive stats, but he wasn't a winner.  He wasn't getting the job done, and just like Dallas, his own team was hesitant on paying him what he wanted until he showed he could lead the team to post season success.  He did not.  He moved on.  He is not as good as he is getting paid.  

 

Dak is better than Cousins, but at the end of the day, Dak wants cap choking money.  I think it says a lot that a team willing to spend big on players is reluctant to make the commitment to him that he is looking for.  Just like Washington.  They seem him every day, they study the film, they seem him daily as a leader around that team.  Something is making Dallas hesitant...and end of the day, this roster has grossly underachieved the last few years and in the worst division in football too.  

 

QB's want that big payday, they get the most scrutiny.  And for me, I just don't see that those elite traits to will their team to win games.  I mean, they struggle to beat bad teams, let alone good teams.  

 

Dak has shown he can be a winner. He has won everywhere he has been. Look at Mississippi State before and after. Look at his record in Dallas and compare to what came before. 

 

The Dallas personnel staff have done a good job except the Amari deal. Which I said at the time I didn't like. They are hurting with injuries up front and they have hired an absolute disaster of a defensive coordinator. 

 

Give Dak and Dalton the same bad team Dak would win 8 games and Dalton would win 5 or 6. Give them the same good team and Dak would win 13 and Dalton 9 or 10. 

 

As for the Philly GM - he won a Superbowl. That is the goal. He built a Superbowl Champion. How you can claim that is not a good job I have no idea. He also kept pushing his chips into the table while they were still in that window. That is what you are supposed to do. Where I think Philly is different to Dallas as I do think Philly has a QB problem. Wentz is not the guy IMO.

[BITE ME]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

Give Dak and Dalton the same bad team Dak would win 8 games and Dalton would win 5 or 6. Give them the same good team and Dak would win 13 and Dalton 9 or 10. 

 

 

 

Agreed.  Fitzpatrick probably would win 6 or 7.  That is not enough of a difference to pay Dak real money.  Dak deserves a Ryan Tannehill type contract.  4 years 118M.  He is nowhere near the 5 year 175M he was offered.  The fact he turned it down is bizarre.  If he really believes he should be getting paid $45M a year he is insane.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Don’t be an idiot (I realize that’s a tall ask for you).

 

That’s not what I said.  I was referring to the insane money Dak wanted and whether or not to pay him what he was asking.  I said Dak was a good QB, but that even with his best seasons and a loaded roster he didn’t win and committing that kind of cap killing money to someone who wasn’t winning enough was going to be an issue after all the money they already shelled out on the offense.  That they won’t be able to build up the team around him, especially the defense.  So actually, everything I said was spot on because Dallas was not winning with Dak and literally if not for the ineptness of Atlanta during an onside kick, they would be winless with Dak despite being a heavy SB favorite and in a bad division.  

 

In terms of Dalton, I did say I don’t know that their record is much different with Dalton over Dak.  I never said Dalton is as good as Dak in terms of being a QB.  
 

So this is a false thread and you need to remove my tag or change your title, because it’s not what I was saying.  

It’s what he does.  You know this.  
 

i agree.  Dak is a good qb, but I wouldn’t pay him 40 mill a year.  He had what may have been the most talented roster in football last year and couldn’t make the playoffs while playing in the NFC LEAST. I’m not putting all of that on him, he played well, but wins and losses are put on the QB and HC.  The HC was fired and now they’re even worse. Now this HC will likely be fired at the end of the year.  Dak has a brutally broken leg and no contract. What does jerry do next?  They already screwed up by paying Amari Cooper 20 mill a year (worst contract in the NFL, worse than Tunsil).  Are they going to pay cooper and dak 60 mill between them?  I don’t see it.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, FUTURIST said:

 

Agreed.  Fitzpatrick probably would win 6 or 7.  That is not enough of a difference to pay Dak real money.  Dak deserves a Ryan Tannehill type contract.  4 years 118M.  He is nowhere near the 5 year 175M he was offered.  The fact he turned it down is bizarre.  If he really believes he should be getting paid $45M a year he is insane.

 

That was not what he asked FYI. He was happy that 4 years of the deal were averaged out at $35m per year. He offered to take 4 years, $140m. Dallas refused that. Dak said if you want me to accept the 5th year the price for THAT year is $45m. That puts the overall value at $37m averaged across 5 years. 

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That was not what he asked FYI. He was happy that 4 years of the deal were averaged out at $35m per year. He offered to take 4 years, $140m. Dallas refused that. Dak said if you want me to accept the 5th year the price for THAT year is $45m. That puts the overall value at $37m averaged across 5 years. 

So he turned down a 175 million dollar deal over 10 mill. Seems like he made a big mistake to me.  
 

I think it’s nuts that people (not you) are hating on Jerry for “not paying the man”.  He offered to pay the man.  The man was greedy.  5-175 should’ve been signed sealed and delivered imo.  And that was before the Mahomes and watson deals.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, NewEra said:

So he turned down a 175 million dollar deal over 10 mill. Seems like he made a big mistake to me.  
 

I think it’s nuts that people (not you) are hating on Jerry for “not paying the man”.  He offered to pay the man.  The man was greedy.  5-175 should’ve been signed sealed and delivered imo.  And that was before the Mahomes and watson deals.

 

My only criticism of Jerry is I think he should have prioritised going a little higher for Dak over tying down Amari Cooper. And if you have told him there and then he was going to be able to draft CeeDee in the 1st I think he would have done exactly that.

[NewEra]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

My only criticism of Jerry is I think he should have prioritised going a little higher for Dak over tying down Amari Cooper. And if you have told him there and then he was going to be able to draft CeeDee in the 1st I think he would have done exactly that.

The cooper contract is the worst ever signed in the nfl imo.  Lamb was a gift from the gods.  Dak has a gift from the gods and said no to it.  I don’t feel bad for the guy for a second.  He had a fair contract in hand and got greedy.  Period.  Heal up young buck.

[YoloinOhio]

McCarthy one and done?

 

 

[whatdrought]

14 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

McCarthy one and done?

 

 

 

But he had that sabbatical year where he learned how to be better?... 

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

McCarthy one and done?

 

 

 

He HAS to fire his buddy Mike Nolan. He is doing the worst coordinator job in the league. If he doesn't he will be one and done.

[Royale with Cheese]

49 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He HAS to fire his buddy Mike Nolan. He is doing the worst coordinator job in the league. If he doesn't he will be one and done.

 

Brian Daboll 2021 Dallas Cowboys HC.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dak has shown he can be a winner. He has won everywhere he has been. Look at Mississippi State before and after. Look at his record in Dallas and compare to what came before. 

 

The Dallas personnel staff have done a good job except the Amari deal. Which I said at the time I didn't like. They are hurting with injuries up front and they have hired an absolute disaster of a defensive coordinator. 

 

Give Dak and Dalton the same bad team Dak would win 8 games and Dalton would win 5 or 6. Give them the same good team and Dak would win 13 and Dalton 9 or 10. 

 

As for the Philly GM - he won a Superbowl. That is the goal. He built a Superbowl Champion. How you can claim that is not a good job I have no idea. He also kept pushing his chips into the table while they were still in that window. That is what you are supposed to do. Where I think Philly is different to Dallas as I do think Philly has a QB problem. Wentz is not the guy IMO.

 

Come on.  Who cares about college.  Tim Tebow won in college.  

 

And sorry, Dallas has had a strong roster, you have praised it even.  Dak hasn't won 13 games.  Put Aaron Rodgers on that Dallas team and they win 13 games.  Put Russel Wilson with those weapons together in Dallas and they win 13 games.  Dak didnt even make the playoffs and was a lucky onside kick away from being winless on the season before getting hurt.  

 

Sorry, he's not proven he can win in the NFL yet.  And while we sit here and debate it, the guys who REALLY know Dak also haven't been so keen to dump that money into him yet either.  Why is that?  If he's a slam dunk winner, they would have paid him a while ago.  

 

Im not saying Dak isnt better than Dalton, because he clearly is.  Im saying the same thing I said when this convo first came up...Dak hasn't earned the size of the pay day he is demanding.  

[machine gun kelly]

Sad part is Dak gambled and lost.  He had $175 mil. over 5 years and was greedy.  Now, he has a terrible injury, and hopefully gets back to health, but who knows if Jerrah wants that deal now.

 

I like the guy and he is an unsung hero as he has tremendous stats.  He wasn’t the reason they didn’t make the playoffs.

[PetermansRedemption]

What I find impressive is that Dak still leads the league in passing. And he hasn’t played in a game and a half.